Ty Cobb, etc. (split from Arod thread)

[wolf stansson]

eh, it's just not the same anymore

Well in order for it to be the same, it would go against the spirit Tim wants to foster in this discussion. Dynamite drop in, though.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Ty Cobb grew up in turn of the century Georgia. It would be more a surprise if he didnt grow up a bigot.

[OleMissCub]

Ty Cobb grew up in turn of the century Georgia. It would be more a surprise if he didnt grow up a bigot.

 

Pretty much my central point regarding context. People are a product of how they are raised, and while this certainly doesn't excuse their actions, it should at the least put some of them into context. Do all inner city kids overcome their unfortunate unbringings?

 

Of course he was a racist, but for modern viewers to single him out as if he deserves some "special bigot" status is too much I think, given his era and the actions of other baseball legends. Hell, Rogers Hornsby and Tris Speaker were admitted members of the KKK. Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis, the first commissioner of baseball, conspired for 25 years to keep blacks out of baseball.

 

Again, I feel the many racial contradictions that existed in Cobb's life should be reiterated. In the 1920's, Cobb personally tried to get Billy Evans, a star negro league catcher, into the MLB by passing him off as a Cuban. Several negro leaguers reported that Cobb would go to their games and hang out in the dugout with them and talk baseball. Detroit Stars infielder Bobby Robinson "recalled that there wasn't a hint of prejudice in Cobb's attitude that day. They were just two ballplayers sharing stories." (Voices from the Pastime: Oral Histories of Surviving Major Leaguers, Negro Leaguers, Cuban Leaguers and Writers; 1920–1934, Nick C. Wilson, 2000, pp. 113).

 

These types of things occurred many times throughout his life, and while they don't excuse his racist behavior that he exhibited in other places, they should serve to at least show that he wasn't this extra-exceptional white supremacist that he is made out to be. His bigoted behavior was nothing out of the ordinary for the time and as such, was rarely, if ever commented on by contemporary accounts. As baseball writer Bill Burgess suggested, his views progressed along with those of the rest of the country and especially the south. By the early 1950's, Cobb was saying that more blacks should be in the MLB and commenting to sportswriters that his favorite modern players were Hank Aaron and Willie Mays.

 

The negative aspect of his personality that actually DID stick out at the time was his explosive and violent temper. Modern psychologists would likely look at how abruptly and violently his relationship to his father ended. His entire world revolved around impressing his father, who was a Georgia senator. His father disapproved of him playing ball, but gave him the chance and basically said "don't come back a failure."

 

Having just turned 18, Cobb was called up to the Tigers and when he called back home to tell his father what he had accomplished he found out that his MOTHER had blown his father's head off with a shotgun. Couple this tragedy with the fact that he was hazed horrificly by some of the other Tigers outfielders who were scared of losing their jobs (they broke all of his bats that he had personally made, would destroy all of his clothes, toss his travel bag with all his belongings out the train window, etc), and you have a reciple for some serious brain malfunction to an 18 year old kid just up from the sticks. He was so disturbed by all of this that the Tigers sent him to a psychological institute for 3 months because he had a nervous breakdown.

 

This all created in him a "me against the world" complex, which he credited with his baseball success, and while it might have given him baseball success, it made him a complete jackass, and at times, completely intolerable to be around.

[ctcf]

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/CTCubsFan/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg

[Derwood]

Again, I feel the many racial contradictions that existed in Cobb's life should be reiterated. In the 1920's, Cobb personally tried to get Billy Evans, a star negro league catcher, into the MLB by passing him off as a Cuban.

 

thus, my George Wallace comparison

[OleMissCub]

Again, I feel the many racial contradictions that existed in Cobb's life should be reiterated. In the 1920's, Cobb personally tried to get Billy Evans, a star negro league catcher, into the MLB by passing him off as a Cuban.

 

thus, my George Wallace comparison

 

Well, it took George Wallace getting a stomach full of lead before he changed his ways. I think Cobb's ideas on race were just the same as the mainstream at the time, and as mainstream America's ideas on race progressed, so did Cobb's. Cobb wasn't a politician either, so I don't see what he had to gain from becoming enlightened.

[snoodmonger]

April 16, 1907, Warren Park, Augusta, GA, grounds keeper "Bungy", clapped Ty on the back as if to say,

good going. Ty took this innocent gesture wrongly, feeling that a black person shouldn't be so familiar. So Ty

slapped him, chased him into the shed where the equipment was stored, and when Bungy's wife came to his

assistance, yelling, "Stop! Don't hurt Bungy!", Ty began choking her for trying to help her husband. But then

the Tigers arrived to intervene, and catcher Charlie Schmidt stopped him and beat Ty up, rightfully so. This

incident is most definitely racist to its core.

 

April 25, 1919 - Hotel Pontchartrain, Detroit, MI - Miss Ada Morris was working as a chambermaid at the Hotel,

when she claims that Mr. Cobb called her a "[expletive]". When she took offense at this slur, and flared back and

sassed him, Mr. Cobb knocked her down, kicked her in the stomache, and knocked her down the stairs. She had

sustained a broken rib and had been hospitalized until at least June 1, 1919. She filed a law suit for $10,000. This

This story was carried in the Chicago Defender, and also appeared in the Baltimore Afro-American, on the front page,

This incident was mentioned in "The Golden Age, by Harold Seymour, 1971, pp. 110.

 

Not only was he racist, he also abused women.

 

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess02.html

Edited November 20, 2007 by snoodmonger

[swordsman]

April 16, 1907, Warren Park, Augusta, GA, grounds keeper "Bungy", clapped Ty on the back as if to say,

good going. Ty took this innocent gesture wrongly, feeling that a black person shouldn't be so familiar. So Ty

slapped him, chased him into the shed where the equipment was stored, and when Bungy's wife came to his

assistance, yelling, "Stop! Don't hurt Bungy!", Ty began choking her for trying to help her husband. But then

the Tigers arrived to intervene, and catcher Charlie Schmidt stopped him and beat Ty up, rightfully so. This

incident is most definitely racist to its core.

 

April 25, 1919 - Hotel Pontchartrain, Detroit, MI - Miss Ada Morris was working as a chambermaid at the Hotel,

when she claims that Mr. Cobb called her a "[expletive]". When she took offense at this slur, and flared back and

sassed him, Mr. Cobb knocked her down, kicked her in the stomache, and knocked her down the stairs. She had

sustained a broken rib and had been hospitalized until at least June 1, 1919. She filed a law suit for $10,000. This

This story was carried in the Chicago Defender, and also appeared in the Baltimore Afro-American, on the front page,

This incident was mentioned in "The Golden Age, by Harold Seymour, 1971, pp. 110.

 

Not only was he racist; he also abused women.

 

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess02.html

 

Lemme see if I have the argument right...

 

This is more clearly evidence of his hot temper, not racism or abuse of women.

[OleMissCub]

There's no explaining his psychotic behavior in the "Bungy" incident, as it is known. To this day it is still unclear as to why he went crazy on Bungy. There's two versions to the story, one says that he just slapped Ty on the back, while the other says that Cobb got into a verbal altercation with Bungy about the condition of the field. If the former explanation is true, then this is definitely a horrific racist episode on his part. If the latter is true, this incident can probably be choked to his overall propensity toward violence in some situations, regardless of what color the person was.

 

The Ada Morris incident is just deplorable. Another example of the psychotic rages he was capable of. Dude was seriously messed up in the head.

[Sammy Sofa]

April 16, 1907, Warren Park, Augusta, GA, grounds keeper "Bungy", clapped Ty on the back as if to say,

good going. Ty took this innocent gesture wrongly, feeling that a black person shouldn't be so familiar. So Ty

slapped him, chased him into the shed where the equipment was stored, and when Bungy's wife came to his

assistance, yelling, "Stop! Don't hurt Bungy!", Ty began choking her for trying to help her husband. But then

the Tigers arrived to intervene, and catcher Charlie Schmidt stopped him and beat Ty up, rightfully so. This

incident is most definitely racist to its core.

 

April 25, 1919 - Hotel Pontchartrain, Detroit, MI - Miss Ada Morris was working as a chambermaid at the Hotel,

when she claims that Mr. Cobb called her a "[expletive]". When she took offense at this slur, and flared back and

sassed him, Mr. Cobb knocked her down, kicked her in the stomache, and knocked her down the stairs. She had

sustained a broken rib and had been hospitalized until at least June 1, 1919. She filed a law suit for $10,000. This

This story was carried in the Chicago Defender, and also appeared in the Baltimore Afro-American, on the front page,

This incident was mentioned in "The Golden Age, by Harold Seymour, 1971, pp. 110.

 

Not only was he racist; he also abused women.

 

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess02.html

 

Lemme see if I have the argument right...

 

This is more clearly evidence of his hot temper, not racism or abuse of women.

 

Uhm...seriously?

[OleMissCub]

 

This is more clearly evidence of his hot temper, not racism or abuse of women.

 

Ehhh...I'd say these incidents are a combination of all three.

[swordsman]

April 16, 1907, Warren Park, Augusta, GA, grounds keeper "Bungy", clapped Ty on the back as if to say,

good going. Ty took this innocent gesture wrongly, feeling that a black person shouldn't be so familiar. So Ty

slapped him, chased him into the shed where the equipment was stored, and when Bungy's wife came to his

assistance, yelling, "Stop! Don't hurt Bungy!", Ty began choking her for trying to help her husband. But then

the Tigers arrived to intervene, and catcher Charlie Schmidt stopped him and beat Ty up, rightfully so. This

incident is most definitely racist to its core.

 

April 25, 1919 - Hotel Pontchartrain, Detroit, MI - Miss Ada Morris was working as a chambermaid at the Hotel,

when she claims that Mr. Cobb called her a "[expletive]". When she took offense at this slur, and flared back and

sassed him, Mr. Cobb knocked her down, kicked her in the stomache, and knocked her down the stairs. She had

sustained a broken rib and had been hospitalized until at least June 1, 1919. She filed a law suit for $10,000. This

This story was carried in the Chicago Defender, and also appeared in the Baltimore Afro-American, on the front page,

This incident was mentioned in "The Golden Age, by Harold Seymour, 1971, pp. 110.

 

Not only was he racist; he also abused women.

 

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess02.html

 

Lemme see if I have the argument right...

 

This is more clearly evidence of his hot temper, not racism or abuse of women.

 

Uhm...seriously?

Did I get it wrong? I was trying to get OMC's point of view. Dang, and I was reading OMC's posts so closely too.

[bukie]

I may be off base here, but I think the only point OMC is trying to make about Cobb's off-the-field exploits was that, unfortunately, that kind of behavior wasn't all that uncommon. Does it excuse the behavior? Of course not. As racism and sexism went back then, though, that kind of thing was all too common. In OMC's point of view, Cobb wasn't a villain of the era, he was just a somewhat common product of the era.

[Sammy Sofa]

April 16, 1907, Warren Park, Augusta, GA, grounds keeper "Bungy", clapped Ty on the back as if to say,

good going. Ty took this innocent gesture wrongly, feeling that a black person shouldn't be so familiar. So Ty

slapped him, chased him into the shed where the equipment was stored, and when Bungy's wife came to his

assistance, yelling, "Stop! Don't hurt Bungy!", Ty began choking her for trying to help her husband. But then

the Tigers arrived to intervene, and catcher Charlie Schmidt stopped him and beat Ty up, rightfully so. This

incident is most definitely racist to its core.

 

April 25, 1919 - Hotel Pontchartrain, Detroit, MI - Miss Ada Morris was working as a chambermaid at the Hotel,

when she claims that Mr. Cobb called her a "[expletive]". When she took offense at this slur, and flared back and

sassed him, Mr. Cobb knocked her down, kicked her in the stomache, and knocked her down the stairs. She had

sustained a broken rib and had been hospitalized until at least June 1, 1919. She filed a law suit for $10,000. This

This story was carried in the Chicago Defender, and also appeared in the Baltimore Afro-American, on the front page,

This incident was mentioned in "The Golden Age, by Harold Seymour, 1971, pp. 110.

 

Not only was he racist; he also abused women.

 

http://baseballguru.com/bburgess/analysisbburgess02.html

 

Lemme see if I have the argument right...

 

This is more clearly evidence of his hot temper, not racism or abuse of women.

 

Uhm...seriously?

Did I get it wrong? I was trying to get OMC's point of view. Dang, and I was reading OMC's posts so closely too.

 

I'd say you got it wrong, since even OMC agreed that those examples are likely clear examples of his temper, racism and violence towards women.

[swordsman]

Nuts.

[snoodmonger]

I may be off base here, but I think the only point OMC is trying to make about Cobb's off-the-field exploits was that, unfortunately, that kind of behavior wasn't all that uncommon. Does it excuse the behavior? Of course not. As racism and sexism went back then, though, that kind of thing was all too common. In OMC's point of view, Cobb wasn't a villain of the era, he was just a somewhat common product of the era.

 

I don't know how anyone can honestly suggest that. To be a racist and a misogynist was certainly much more common back then. But physically assaulting people based on their race or gender was not par for the course. It happened more often, I'm sure, but it was still a decidedly more extreme form of racism and misogyny.

[OleMissCub]

I don't know how anyone can honestly suggest that. To be a racist and a misogynist was certainly much more common back then. But physically assaulting people based on their race or gender was not par for the course. It happened more often, I'm sure, but it was still a decidedly more extreme form of racism and misogyny.

 

Again, I'm not sure how much of him assaulting those people really had to do with their race or gender exclusively...that might have been why he got into an argument with them in the first place, but his decision to actually attack people and cross that line had mostly to do with his violent personality. Cobb fought ALL people, black, white, green, blue. People back then avoided arguments with Cobb like the plague. Because of his mental instability, he was able to turn on just about anyone, even his best friends, in the snap of a finger.

 

All of that mental instability goes back to how curious it was that he could be someone so generous to others when he wanted to. It's odd because his many acts of genorosity were seldom published, at his own request. This strange and often deplorable personality is why there are so many books on him.

[snoodmonger]

That's a Cobb apologist response. Sure, he may have been a jerk to everybody, but those two incidents that I found in 2 seconds (on a major Cobb homer's website) we're rooted in racism. They were started because, in both instances, a black person was not subservient enough. They then escalated into violence.

 

Another interesting thing I saw while skimming that site was the author's argument that Cobb just wanted to be part of the majority. He was cruel to blacks when it was the accepted behavior, but as blacks earned social freedom and equality, he became more accepting of them. If that's true--if Cobb's behavior was based on his desire to be part of the mainstream thinking, as the author suggests--then I find that behavior even more reprehensible. Flat-out racism is unforgivable, but at least you can write some of it off to stupidity and ignorance. But to make a conscious decision to be part of the mainstream suggests he knew better and still was racist. That's pretty effed up.

[OleMissCub]

That's a Cobb apologist response. Sure, he may have been a jerk to everybody, but those two incidents that I found in 2 seconds (on a major Cobb homer's website) we're rooted in racism. They were started because, in both instances, a black person was not subservient enough. They then escalated into violence.

 

I don't see how my response is an apologist response when i basically said the same thing you just said, unless you consider yours an apologist response. Their race was a major factor in getting the incident started, but his decision to use violence against them was not at all to do with their race, but rather had to do with his psychotic temper. He beat the hell out of everyone, regardless of skincolor.

 

Another interesting thing I saw while skimming that site was the author's argument that Cobb just wanted to be part of the majority. He was cruel to blacks when it was the accepted behavior, but as blacks earned social freedom and equality, he became more accepting of them. If that's true--if Cobb's behavior was based on his desire to be part of the mainstream thinking, as the author suggests--then I find that behavior even more reprehensible. Flat-out racism is unforgivable, but at least you can write some of it off to stupidity and ignorance. But to make a conscious decision to be part of the mainstream suggests he knew better and still was racist. That's pretty effed up.

 

I disagrre with Burgess' thesis on that part. I feel he was a product of his era, and as the mindset of his era changed, so did his. His enormous efforts to help blacks during the end of his life were probably his attempt to atone for his past wrongs.

 

Burgess' thesis in that regard is also wrong because Cobb never did ANYTHING to try and fit in. I don't see how a Cobb scholar like Burgess would suggest that. Cobb is one of the most independant people I've ever come across in baseball. He was most certainly NOT a follower. He didn't care what anyone thought about him.

[snoodmonger]

That's a Cobb apologist response. Sure, he may have been a jerk to everybody, but those two incidents that I found in 2 seconds (on a major Cobb homer's website) we're rooted in racism. They were started because, in both instances, a black person was not subservient enough. They then escalated into violence.

 

I don't see how my response is an apologist response when i basically said the same thing you just said, unless you consider yours an apologist response. Their race was a major factor in getting the incident started, but his decision to use violence against them was not at all to do with their race, but rather had to do with his psychotic temper. He beat the hell out of everyone, regardless of skincolor.

 

We're not saying the same thing. I disagree completely with the bolded section.

[OleMissCub]

That's a Cobb apologist response. Sure, he may have been a jerk to everybody, but those two incidents that I found in 2 seconds (on a major Cobb homer's website) we're rooted in racism. They were started because, in both instances, a black person was not subservient enough. They then escalated into violence.

 

I don't see how my response is an apologist response when i basically said the same thing you just said, unless you consider yours an apologist response. Their race was a major factor in getting the incident started, but his decision to use violence against them was not at all to do with their race, but rather had to do with his psychotic temper. He beat the hell out of everyone, regardless of skincolor.

 

We're not saying the same thing. I disagree completely with the bolded section.

 

Why? His temper caused him to cross the line between arguing and violence and hit those people, not their race. His racism started those arguments, but his violent nature is what took it to the next level.

 

He had zero self control when it came to his temper. I think it might be that you are reading on Burgess' page about all the violence tied to his bigotry, and therefore are associating his violence and bigotry as one in the same. If you read about the 3 or 4 racial incidents of violence mixed in with his 50 or so other documented incidents of violence against whites, then it would probably be more plausible to you that his decision to use violence was not racial.

 

AL president Ban Johnson once said, "Cobb would climb a mountain just to punch an echo."

[jersey cubs fan]

I still don't understand why you so strongly support such a douche.

[OleMissCub]

I still don't understand why you so strongly support such a douche.

 

Because I don't thinks it's fair to his greatness as a baseballer that the first thing people thing people think of when they hear the name is his off the field craziness. They don't think about Babe Ruth's debauchery, adultery, violence, etc., or Hornsby and Speaker's association with the klan, etc.

 

Again, there is a difference between someone defending a person's actions and someone seeking that the facts of that person's life be put into accurate perspective.

 

However, the fact that he is remembered the way he is among sports lovers is perhaps his ultimate punishment for being such a turd.

 

Plus, defending the indefensible is fun in a way, it puts your devil's advocate skills to the test.

[Derwood]

do you think it's fair that the first thing people think about when you mention Mike Tyson is his out-of-the-ring craziness?

[snoodmonger]

The mistake I think you're making is when you consider Cobb's equal opportunity violence as unique and proof he's not a violent racist.

 

I would contend that almost every violent racist is first, a violent person. In my experience, those people are often in physical altercations because they're hateful people. So they probably have a long resume of fights and violence, and sometimes only a small percentage is against people of a different ethnicity. However, that doesn't mean they're not violent racists.

 

So sure, Cobb beat down a few whities in his day. Congratulations? But that doesn't mitigate the fact he was racist and that propelled him into several documented (and probably a few undocumented) cases against blacks.