MVP's, CYA's,

[NewUserName]

I think to say the DLee is the 12th most valuable player in baseball is complete homerism. Sorry, your probably going to have to show me the numbers. Also I dont care how good of a defender he is, its 1st base.

[Mephistopheles]

I think to say the DLee is the 12th most valuable player in baseball is complete homerism. Sorry, your probably going to have to show me the numbers. Also I dont care how good of a defender he is, its 1st base.

 

8.69 Jake Peavy

8.46 Albert Pujols

8.28 Magglio Ordonez

8.06 Matt Holliday

7.83 Alex Rodriguez

7.49 David Wright

7.40 Grady Sizemore

7.20 Hanley Ramirez

7.06 Tim Hudson

7.00 Brad Penny

6.88 Chase Utley

6.61 Derrek Lee

6.51 David Ortiz

6.48 Prince Fielder

6.32 Vladimir Guerrero

6.27 C.c. Sabathia

6.12 Jimmy Rollins

5.99 Roy Halladay

5.98 Chipper Jones

5.96 Alfonso Soriano

5.92 Josh Beckett

5.90 Johan Santana

5.84 John Smoltz

5.82 Miguel Cabrera

5.81 Carlos Pena

5.79 Edgar Renteria

5.72 Fausto Carmona

5.70 Aramis Ramirez

5.54 Carlos Beltran

[NewUserName]

I think to say the DLee is the 12th most valuable player in baseball is complete homerism. Sorry, your probably going to have to show me the numbers. Also I dont care how good of a defender he is, its 1st base.

 

8.69 Jake Peavy

8.46 Albert Pujols

8.28 Magglio Ordonez

8.06 Matt Holliday

7.83 Alex Rodriguez

7.49 David Wright

7.40 Grady Sizemore

7.20 Hanley Ramirez

7.06 Tim Hudson

7.00 Brad Penny

6.88 Chase Utley

6.61 Derrek Lee

6.51 David Ortiz

6.48 Prince Fielder

6.32 Vladimir Guerrero

6.27 C.c. Sabathia

6.12 Jimmy Rollins

5.99 Roy Halladay

5.98 Chipper Jones

5.96 Alfonso Soriano

5.92 Josh Beckett

5.90 Johan Santana

5.84 John Smoltz

5.82 Miguel Cabrera

5.81 Carlos Pena

5.79 Edgar Renteria

5.72 Fausto Carmona

5.70 Aramis Ramirez

5.54 Carlos Beltran

 

Is this VORP?

[Mephistopheles]

more or less.

[NewUserName]

more or less.

 

 

Should I ask?

[Mephistopheles]

Judging by the reaction from this thread, no. http://www.northsidebaseball.com/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[NewUserName]

Just for kicks, explain how DLee is higher than Chipper Jones? I just pulled someone out random that I probably would say had a better year than Lee.

[Mephistopheles]

He's a brick defensively.

[NewUserName]

How much of a brick?

[Mephistopheles]

i dunno, anywhere from -10 to -15.

[NewUserName]

How do you come up with -10 to -15

[Mephistopheles]

THE GRIT FACTOR OF COURSE

 

seriously its not scientific. i took a range because the values arent precise. it's just a general consensus. hes real bad, we all know that. so that puts him 10-20 below, but hes not braunlike

[NewUserName]

So its just a guess?

[Mephistopheles]

not really no.

[NewUserName]

Ok I will use another example than. Curtis Granderson. Lee and Granderson are pretty equal offensively. Defensively though Granderson would have to be much more valuable than Lee.

[XZero771679666304]

So its just a guess?

 

An educated guess, I'm guessing. Defense is much harder to quantify, but that doesn't mean an approximation can't be made through a combination of observation and the defensive metrics that most people look at.

 

But as Meph said, it wouldn't be entirely scientific.

 

And don't discount the value of a good defensive first baseman. It's not a sexy position, but if you have a poor defender there, the effect will be felt.

[Mephistopheles]

For what its worth I orginally computated these before I had 07 UZR data. Granderson was at +5 or so (mainly based on his performance prior to this season). He was like +18 UZR and I didnt change that because Im lazy. I tried not to use just one year of data so I would rate Granderson somewhere close to 15. At +15 he's between Utley and Lee. He's really the only guy who completely changed his defensive output this (him and crisp)

 

I keeped my run totals at 5 run intervals. If theyve got a good reputation and their normally say a +18 defender Ill give them a +15 or +20 defensive rating. If theyre normally say +10 statistically but they have a bad reputation Ill give them a +5 or +10.

[NewUserName]

For what its worth I orginally computated these before I had 07 UZR data. Granderson was at +5 or so (mainly based on his performance prior to this season). He was like +18 UZR and I didnt change that because Im lazy. I tried not to use just one year of data so I would rate Granderson somewhere close to 15. At +15 he's between Utley and Lee. He's really the only guy who completely changed his defensive output this (him and crisp)

 

I keeped my run totals at 5 run intervals. If theyve got a good reputation and their normally say a +18 defender Ill give them a +15 or +20 defensive rating. If theyre normally say +10 statistically but they have a bad reputation Ill give them a +5 or +10.

 

 

So basically Lee was a +20 defensively and Granderson was a +15.

[Mephistopheles]

i had lee at plus fifteen.

 

when i say +15, thats +15 over an average 1B. +15 1B =/= +15 CF

 

theres another part of defense too you know

[NewUserName]

i had lee at plus fifteen.

 

when i say +15, thats +15 over an average 1B. +15 1B =/= +15 CF

 

theres another part of defense too you know

 

Ok so Lee is a +15 over a average 1b

Granderson is a +15 over a average CF.

 

This is starting to come together for me. Though I agree with XFactor in that defense at 1b is probably generally undervalued. I still have a hard time seeing that Lee's defense at 1b makes him as valuable of a player as Granderson. I am going to go to bed now. If you could come up with anything to justify this I would be more than welcome to try and understand.

[Geech]

i had lee at plus fifteen.

 

when i say +15, thats +15 over an average 1B. +15 1B =/= +15 CF

 

theres another part of defense too you know

 

Why is Helton so low? He's better than Lee offensively and defensively.

[Mephistopheles]

helton played on a team where runs werent scarce. In other words his runs meant less to the rockies than the lee's meant to the cubs, when converted to runs.

 

This is the main reason Peavy was first. His run value wasnt the best, but each run he was worth meant more converted to wins than say someone like rodriguez's.

[mhuber92211]

So the guys that you have at the top of the lists would inherently be better to build a winning team around?

[Mephistopheles]

i had lee at plus fifteen.

 

when i say +15, thats +15 over an average 1B. +15 1B =/= +15 CF

 

theres another part of defense too you know

 

Ok so Lee is a +15 over a average 1b

Granderson is a +15 over a average CF.

 

This is starting to come together for me. Though I agree with XFactor in that defense at 1b is probably generally undervalued. I still have a hard time seeing that Lee's defense at 1b makes him as valuable of a player as Granderson. I am going to go to bed now. If you could come up with anything to justify this I would be more than welcome to try and understand.

 

sorry i didnt see this post. see above.

 

in reality for the tigers each run produced didnt mean as much for them as the run produced for the cubs. (ditto for Ordonez over Rodriguez and Yankees/Tigers).

 

Since this is value to a team we have to account for this.

[Mephistopheles]

So the guys that you have at the top of the lists would inherently be better to build a winning team around?

 

nobody said that. no one should infer that. this isnt a list for the best players in the game.