Marmol and his slider

[CuseCubFan69]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

 

No, we lost last night because our hitters couldn't hit Webb....no big surprise from me. I was hoping that somehow we could pull it out, but in my heart I knew the Cubs would look like little girls at the plate....and little girls they did look like.

 

Hopefully, tonight we'll look like men.

 

Actually had a lot of good swings against him. None fell in. I thought the approach was ok, other than the inning of the Zambrano double.

 

Also, did anyone think after Theriot reached 2B on the error, that the Cubs should have bunt w/ Zambrano? Granted he had the hardest hit ball to that point and hit it hard again, but if he puts a bunt down, Soriano's line drive to CF, probably scores Theriot.

 

Yes and no. How's that for a two sided answer!

 

If i'm the Backs....I'm thinking Z's bunting. Most of the time the ball will be a fastball and since Z is a good hitter he swung and hit it hard. Now, if Webb threw a sinker or something else for a strike or ball, I would bunt Z on the second pitch. I agree that a bunt with 2 pitchers like this would put the Cubs in position to tie the game but imo it was a pitch by pitch thing.

[soapy]

i don't have a problem with pulling Zambrano there. i probably would have gone one more inning with him, but i don't think it was a bad move. he had things set up how he wants them with the bullpen ready to work the 7th, 8th and 9th. Marmol (the best reliever) just didn't get it done this time.

 

even if you let Zambrano go the 7th, you probably use Marmol in the 8th and he still may have had trouble.

[badnews]

Please, none of this "Tip your cap to Webb" stuff. He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch and the Cubs could've done a lot more damage than they did.

 

Furthermore, I think saving your ace pitcher for a game you may never play is preposterous. Lastly, in a 1-1 game where runs are at a scarcity, it doesn't behoove you to get into your bullpen too soon.

 

He had some hittable pitches but I thought he did a very nice job.

 

It's amazing how good a pitcher looks when the hitters swing at garbage and take meatballs right down the middle of the plate.

 

If yesterday is any indication today we're going to be kissing Doug Davis's ass talking about what a masterful pitcher he is.

[CuseCubFan69]

Please, none of this "Tip your cap to Webb" stuff. He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch and the Cubs could've done a lot more damage than they did.

 

Furthermore, I think saving your ace pitcher for a game you may never play is preposterous. Lastly, in a 1-1 game where runs are at a scarcity, it doesn't behoove you to get into your bullpen too soon.

 

He had some hittable pitches but I thought he did a very nice job.

 

It's amazing how good a pitcher looks when the hitters swing at garbage and take meatballs right down the middle of the plate.

 

If yesterday is any indication today we're going to be kissing Doug Davis's ass talking about what a masterful pitcher he is.

 

Big difference between Davis and Webb.

[soapy]

 

Actually had a lot of good swings against him. None fell in. I thought the approach was ok, other than the inning of the Zambrano double.

 

Also, did anyone think after Theriot reached 2B on the error, that the Cubs should have bunt w/ Zambrano? Granted he had the hardest hit ball to that point and hit it hard again, but if he puts a bunt down, Soriano's line drive to CF, probably scores Theriot.

 

Two things: 1) I agree that they had some decent swings on Webb (and the bullpen) and had a few tough breaks as balls went right at guys. 2) I expected a bunt in that situation and was surprised not to see it. I'm not a big fan of sacs, but that was one of the few situations I thought screemed for one. Would have liked to see Theriot on 3rd with one out and Soriano coming up. Having said that, Lou was also about six inches away from looking like a genius (if that ball gets over Drew's head).

[kente777]

Please, none of this "Tip your cap to Webb" stuff. He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch and the Cubs could've done a lot more damage than they did.

 

Furthermore, I think saving your ace pitcher for a game you may never play is preposterous. Lastly, in a 1-1 game where runs are at a scarcity, it doesn't behoove you to get into your bullpen too soon.

 

He had some hittable pitches but I thought he did a very nice job.

 

It's amazing how good a pitcher looks when the hitters swing at garbage and take meatballs right down the middle of the plate.

 

If yesterday is any indication today we're going to be kissing Doug Davis's ass talking about what a masterful pitcher he is.

 

That's what I'm really afraid of. A junky, slow ball lefty in a must-win game for the Cubs??? Ugh.

 

Ken

[badnews]

He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch.

 

Nonsense. He was filthy. I'm reasonably optimistic about doing better against him in Game 5 because the Cubs looked much better as the game went on. But he was really good.

 

Filthy? Give me a break. I can't wait until that one gets rolled out again for Livan Hernandez. "Big L was flat out NASTY."

 

I don't believe you actually watched the game. I think you must have seen the 9 strikeouts and said "Wow, I guess he was good." He wasn't.

[nilodnayr]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

 

No, we lost last night because our hitters couldn't hit Webb....no big surprise from me. I was hoping that somehow we could pull it out, but in my heart I knew the Cubs would look like little girls at the plate....and little girls they did look like.

 

Hopefully, tonight we'll look like men.

 

Actually had a lot of good swings against him. None fell in. I thought the approach was ok, other than the inning of the Zambrano double.

 

Also, did anyone think after Theriot reached 2B on the error, that the Cubs should have bunt w/ Zambrano? Granted he had the hardest hit ball to that point and hit it hard again, but if he puts a bunt down, Soriano's line drive to CF, probably scores Theriot.

 

Yes and no. How's that for a two sided answer!

 

If i'm the Backs....I'm thinking Z's bunting. Most of the time the ball will be a fastball and since Z is a good hitter he swung and hit it hard. Now, if Webb threw a sinker or something else for a strike or ball, I would bunt Z on the second pitch. I agree that a bunt with 2 pitchers like this would put the Cubs in position to tie the game but imo it was a pitch by pitch thing.

 

Its very difficult to bunt against a sinker as nasty as Webb's, and his curve was on too. A bunt most definitely would have ended with a strike out. I like the decision to let Z (who had the only decent contact against Webb) swing away. A couple more inches and it would have been over Drew's head and Theriot would have scored.

[badnews]

Excellent, if we lose the series we can all pat each other on the back about how hard the Cubs hit the ball right at someone.

 

I'm not sure where anyone dug up the idea you can't bunt a sinker.

[CuseCubFan69]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

 

No, we lost last night because our hitters couldn't hit Webb....no big surprise from me. I was hoping that somehow we could pull it out, but in my heart I knew the Cubs would look like little girls at the plate....and little girls they did look like.

 

Hopefully, tonight we'll look like men.

 

Actually had a lot of good swings against him. None fell in. I thought the approach was ok, other than the inning of the Zambrano double.

 

Also, did anyone think after Theriot reached 2B on the error, that the Cubs should have bunt w/ Zambrano? Granted he had the hardest hit ball to that point and hit it hard again, but if he puts a bunt down, Soriano's line drive to CF, probably scores Theriot.

 

Yes and no. How's that for a two sided answer!

 

If i'm the Backs....I'm thinking Z's bunting. Most of the time the ball will be a fastball and since Z is a good hitter he swung and hit it hard. Now, if Webb threw a sinker or something else for a strike or ball, I would bunt Z on the second pitch. I agree that a bunt with 2 pitchers like this would put the Cubs in position to tie the game but imo it was a pitch by pitch thing.

 

Its very difficult to bunt against a sinker as nasty as Webb's, and his curve was on too. A bunt most definitely would have ended with a strike out. I like the decision to let Z (who had the only decent contact against Webb) swing away. A couple more inches and it would have been over Drew's head and Theriot would have scored.

 

Maybe I wrote it wrong but I would only put Z in a hitting situation knowing it's a fastball. Look how foolish Z looked when bases where loaded and Webb treated him like a real hitter.

[nilodnayr]

He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch.

 

Nonsense. He was filthy. I'm reasonably optimistic about doing better against him in Game 5 because the Cubs looked much better as the game went on. But he was really good.

 

Filthy? Give me a break. I can't wait until that one gets rolled out again for Livan Hernandez. "Big L was flat out NASTY."

 

I don't believe you actually watched the game. I think you must have seen the 9 strikeouts and said "Wow, I guess he was good." He wasn't.

 

I believe you might be forgetting the first 5 innings of the game, where Webb was indeed quite filthy making Soriano, Lee, and ARam look like little leaguers (although ARam did have a warning track fly). And he wasn't even crazy hittable in the 6th, he only let up two singles. What game were you watching?

 

As Warren said, the Cubs looked better as the game wore on, but in the first half of the game, Webb was dominating, and Z was seemingly holding on by a thread.

[badnews]

No, it was the hitters, not the pitcher. They were just doing poorly. Webb's stuff was not good. When they're taking no-movement change-ups right down the heart of the plate I don't think it's because Webb was just that damn good.

 

This is ridiculous. Everyone's in such a big hurry to make excuses that our guys didn't get the job done we'll just make up any story. "Well, we looked crappy out there, so Webb must've been great! Just because we're a playoff team we can't be expected to hit good pitching. After all the Diamondbacks are a worse offensive team than us, and they couldn't Zambrano or Marmol right?" Oh wait.

 

I've seen scrub pitchers make the whole team look like grade schoolers before.

[CuseCubFan69]

No, it was the hitters, not the pitcher. They were just doing poorly. Webb's stuff was not good. When they're taking no-movement change-ups right down the heart of the plate I don't think it's because Webb was just that damn good.

 

This is ridiculous. Everyone's in such a big hurry to make excuses that our guys didn't get the job done we'll just make up any story. "Well, we looked crappy out there, so Webb must've been great! Just because we're a playoff team we can't be expected to hit good pitching. After all the Diamondbacks are a worse offensive team than us, and they couldn't Zambrano or Marmol right?" Oh wait.

 

I've seen scrub pitchers make the whole team look like grade schoolers before.

 

I really hope you're kidding. This guy is far from a scrub pitcher and to just throw a blanket statement like that out there makes no sense to me. Webb is one of the best pitchers in the NL if not baseball this year, wow, just wow.

[nilodnayr]

Interesting that we're now playing the inexperienced angle after losing to a bunch of 24-year olds.

 

No, we lost last night because our hitters couldn't hit Webb....no big surprise from me. I was hoping that somehow we could pull it out, but in my heart I knew the Cubs would look like little girls at the plate....and little girls they did look like.

 

Hopefully, tonight we'll look like men.

 

Actually had a lot of good swings against him. None fell in. I thought the approach was ok, other than the inning of the Zambrano double.

 

Also, did anyone think after Theriot reached 2B on the error, that the Cubs should have bunt w/ Zambrano? Granted he had the hardest hit ball to that point and hit it hard again, but if he puts a bunt down, Soriano's line drive to CF, probably scores Theriot.

 

Yes and no. How's that for a two sided answer!

 

If i'm the Backs....I'm thinking Z's bunting. Most of the time the ball will be a fastball and since Z is a good hitter he swung and hit it hard. Now, if Webb threw a sinker or something else for a strike or ball, I would bunt Z on the second pitch. I agree that a bunt with 2 pitchers like this would put the Cubs in position to tie the game but imo it was a pitch by pitch thing.

 

Its very difficult to bunt against a sinker as nasty as Webb's, and his curve was on too. A bunt most definitely would have ended with a strike out. I like the decision to let Z (who had the only decent contact against Webb) swing away. A couple more inches and it would have been over Drew's head and Theriot would have scored.

 

Maybe I wrote it wrong but I would only put Z in a hitting situation knowing it's a fastball. Look how foolish Z looked when bases where loaded and Webb treated him like a real hitter.

 

Usually when Z gets behind in the count he strikes out. In fact, half the time in the last 4 years when hes been 0-1 hes struck out. Compare that to Marquis, who has struck out in 1/3rd of the ABs hes been 0-1 in in the past 4 years.

[Warren Brusstar]

He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch.

 

Nonsense. He was filthy. I'm reasonably optimistic about doing better against him in Game 5 because the Cubs looked much better as the game went on. But he was really good.

 

Filthy? Give me a break. I can't wait until that one gets rolled out again for Livan Hernandez. "Big L was flat out NASTY."

 

I don't believe you actually watched the game. I think you must have seen the 9 strikeouts and said "Wow, I guess he was good." He wasn't.

 

I can't believe you actually watched the game. He made some of our best hitters -- Ramirez, Lee, and Soriano -- look downright silly. How often do Ramirez and Lee strike out on pitches in the dirt? Just about never. They did last night.

 

To be sure, he struggled with command at various points last night, particularly in the 6th inning. But that's hardly unusual for pitchers with so much movement on their hard stuff or for Webb generally.

[nilodnayr]

No, it was the hitters, not the pitcher. They were just doing poorly. Webb's stuff was not good. When they're taking no-movement change-ups right down the heart of the plate I don't think it's because Webb was just that damn good.

 

This is ridiculous. Everyone's in such a big hurry to make excuses that our guys didn't get the job done we'll just make up any story. "Well, we looked crappy out there, so Webb must've been great! Just because we're a playoff team we can't be expected to hit good pitching. After all the Diamondbacks are a worse offensive team than us, and they couldn't Zambrano or Marmol right?" Oh wait.

 

I've seen scrub pitchers make the whole team look like grade schoolers before.

 

Seriously,what game were you watching? His stuff was falling off the table.

[CuseCubFan69]

If i'm the Backs....I'm thinking Z's bunting. Most of the time the ball will be a fastball and since Z is a good hitter he swung and hit it hard. Now, if Webb threw a sinker or something else for a strike or ball, I would bunt Z on the second pitch. I agree that a bunt with 2 pitchers like this would put the Cubs in position to tie the game but imo it was a pitch by pitch thing.

Its very difficult to bunt against a sinker as nasty as Webb's, and his curve was on too. A bunt most definitely would have ended with a strike out. I like the decision to let Z (who had the only decent contact against Webb) swing away. A couple more inches and it would have been over Drew's head and Theriot would have scored.

 

Maybe I wrote it wrong but I would only put Z in a hitting situation knowing it's a fastball. Look how foolish Z looked when bases where loaded and Webb treated him like a real hitter.

Usually when Z gets behind in the count he strikes out. In fact, half the time in the last 4 years when hes been 0-1 hes struck out. Compare that to Marquis, who has struck out in 1/3rd of the ABs hes been 0-1 in in the past 4 years.

 

Thus my point. Sit on the first pitch fastball and after that bunt.

[badnews]

No, it was the hitters, not the pitcher. They were just doing poorly. Webb's stuff was not good. When they're taking no-movement change-ups right down the heart of the plate I don't think it's because Webb was just that damn good.

 

This is ridiculous. Everyone's in such a big hurry to make excuses that our guys didn't get the job done we'll just make up any story. "Well, we looked crappy out there, so Webb must've been great! Just because we're a playoff team we can't be expected to hit good pitching. After all the Diamondbacks are a worse offensive team than us, and they couldn't Zambrano or Marmol right?" Oh wait.

 

I've seen scrub pitchers make the whole team look like grade schoolers before.

 

I really hope you're kidding. This guy is far from a scrub pitcher and to just throw a blanket statement like that out there makes no sense to me. Webb is one of the best pitchers in the NL if not baseball this year, wow, just wow.

 

You're assuming that just because he's good, he doesn't have off nights where the Cubs fail to take advantage? Wow, just wow. I actually watch the games. I've seen Webb when he's on, and he wasn't on.

[fromthestretch]

No, it was the hitters, not the pitcher. They were just doing poorly. Webb's stuff was not good. When they're taking no-movement change-ups right down the heart of the plate I don't think it's because Webb was just that damn good.

 

This is ridiculous. Everyone's in such a big hurry to make excuses that our guys didn't get the job done we'll just make up any story. "Well, we looked crappy out there, so Webb must've been great! Just because we're a playoff team we can't be expected to hit good pitching. After all the Diamondbacks are a worse offensive team than us, and they couldn't Zambrano or Marmol right?" Oh wait.

 

I've seen scrub pitchers make the whole team look like grade schoolers before.

 

No one is saying Webb must have been good because the Cubs looked crappy. A lot of people are saying he looked good because he actually did look good. His sinker had great movement. He was pitching the left-handers (except Z in his first two at-bats) very well. Did he have his best stuff? Doubtful, but that doesn't mean he wasn't pitching well. That's not to say the Cubs didn't make some mistakes. Personally, I didn't think Lee looked very good at the plate last night. For a guy that is usually very patient, he was swinging early and often.

[Warren Brusstar]

No, it was the hitters, not the pitcher. They were just doing poorly. Webb's stuff was not good. When they're taking no-movement change-ups right down the heart of the plate I don't think it's because Webb was just that damn good.

 

This is ridiculous. Everyone's in such a big hurry to make excuses that our guys didn't get the job done we'll just make up any story. "Well, we looked crappy out there, so Webb must've been great! Just because we're a playoff team we can't be expected to hit good pitching. After all the Diamondbacks are a worse offensive team than us, and they couldn't Zambrano or Marmol right?" Oh wait.

 

I've seen scrub pitchers make the whole team look like grade schoolers before.

 

"I was able to keep them off-balance. I had pretty good stuff tonight, great off-speed," Webb said. "Had some great strikeouts, key situations."

 

Pitchers almost always say they *didn't* have their best stuff but struggled through it anyways. When the reigning Cy Young award winner (who had a 40+ inning scoreless streak this year) says he had pretty good stuff, you look pretty ridiculous saying that Webb's stuff was "not good."

 

Did you actually watch the game?

[badnews]

He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch.

 

Nonsense. He was filthy. I'm reasonably optimistic about doing better against him in Game 5 because the Cubs looked much better as the game went on. But he was really good.

 

Filthy? Give me a break. I can't wait until that one gets rolled out again for Livan Hernandez. "Big L was flat out NASTY."

 

I don't believe you actually watched the game. I think you must have seen the 9 strikeouts and said "Wow, I guess he was good." He wasn't.

 

I can't believe you actually watched the game. He made some of our best hitters -- Ramirez, Lee, and Soriano -- look downright silly. How often do Ramirez and Lee strike out on pitches in the dirt? Just about never. They did last night.

 

To be sure, he struggled with command at various points last night, particularly in the 6th inning. But that's hardly unusual for pitchers with so much movement on their hard stuff or for Webb generally.

 

There's a reason Aramis doesn't walk much, and Soriano has always had pitch selection problems. Derrek Lee's strike zone judgement has not been great since the ASB. He's taking too many good pitches and swinging at too many bad ones.

 

Webb's stuff was not "falling off the table." He wasn't even pitching down in the zone as much as he usually does. His sinker wasn't sinking as well as it usually does. It's comments like this that have me thinking people are out to make excuses for our hitters at any cost.

 

I can't wait to hear about "Electric" Doug Davis and "Nasty" Livan Hernandez.

 

I've seen Webb when he's been good, he wasn't that good.

[CuseCubFan69]

No, it was the hitters, not the pitcher. They were just doing poorly. Webb's stuff was not good. When they're taking no-movement change-ups right down the heart of the plate I don't think it's because Webb was just that damn good.

 

This is ridiculous. Everyone's in such a big hurry to make excuses that our guys didn't get the job done we'll just make up any story. "Well, we looked crappy out there, so Webb must've been great! Just because we're a playoff team we can't be expected to hit good pitching. After all the Diamondbacks are a worse offensive team than us, and they couldn't Zambrano or Marmol right?" Oh wait.

 

I've seen scrub pitchers make the whole team look like grade schoolers before.

 

I really hope you're kidding. This guy is far from a scrub pitcher and to just throw a blanket statement like that out there makes no sense to me. Webb is one of the best pitchers in the NL if not baseball this year, wow, just wow.

 

You're assuming that just because he's good, he doesn't have off nights where the Cubs fail to take advantage? Wow, just wow. I actually watch the games. I've seen Webb when he's on, and he wasn't on.

 

Maybe he wasn't on his A game, that I don't know. The game I saw him pitch which was last night was a well pitched game. I assumed nothing.

[Warren Brusstar]

He didn't look like he had best stuff tonight by any stretch.

 

Nonsense. He was filthy. I'm reasonably optimistic about doing better against him in Game 5 because the Cubs looked much better as the game went on. But he was really good.

 

Filthy? Give me a break. I can't wait until that one gets rolled out again for Livan Hernandez. "Big L was flat out NASTY."

 

I don't believe you actually watched the game. I think you must have seen the 9 strikeouts and said "Wow, I guess he was good." He wasn't.

 

I can't believe you actually watched the game. He made some of our best hitters -- Ramirez, Lee, and Soriano -- look downright silly. How often do Ramirez and Lee strike out on pitches in the dirt? Just about never. They did last night.

 

To be sure, he struggled with command at various points last night, particularly in the 6th inning. But that's hardly unusual for pitchers with so much movement on their hard stuff or for Webb generally.

 

There's a reason Aramis doesn't walk much, and Soriano has always had pitch selection problems. Derrek Lee's strike zone judgement has not been great since the ASB. He's taking too many good pitches and swinging at too many bad ones.

 

Webb's stuff was not "falling off the table." He wasn't even pitching down in the zone as much as he usually does. His sinker wasn't sinking as well as it usually does. It's comments like this that have me thinking people are out to make excuses for our hitters at any cost.

 

I can't wait to hear about "Electric" Doug Davis and "Nasty" Livan Hernandez.

 

I've seen Webb when he's been good, he wasn't that good.

 

LOL. It's pretty hard for me to respond to such utterly ludicrous strawmen. When people characterize Davis or Hernandez as nasty, you can trot out that rubbish. Even making the comparison demonstrates how substantively bankrupt your argument is.

 

The NL's reigning Cy Young award winner, who is plainly a top 5 pitcher in baseball, thinks he had "good stuff, great off-speed stuff." Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

[badnews]

I can tell people are BSing because they keep talking up his sinker when his sinker wasn't even what the thorn in the Cubs' side. Everyone who said "His sinker was nasty" or "his sinker was full of movement" or "his sinker was falling off the table" is bluffing that they actually know or just making excuses for the team. Webb was up much more often than he was, and it wasn't the movement, it was our hitters.

 

Go back and watch the game, and tell me about how filthy Webb was with all of those dead straight changeups taken right down the middle of the plate.

 

I'm simply not buying up to this defeatist attitude that we're helpless against good pitching or the idea that we looked bad because Webb was good.

 

I'm sure Webb is going to say in the post-game "I didn't have best stuff, so I was surprised when they showed no strike zone judgement." He was being professional.

[fromthestretch]

I can tell people are BSing because they keep talking up his sinker when his sinker wasn't even what the thorn in the Cubs' side. Everyone who said "His sinker was nasty" or "his sinker was full of movement" or "his sinker was falling off the table" is bluffing that they actually know or just making excuses for the team. Webb was up much more often than he was, and it wasn't the movement, it was our hitters.

 

Go back and watch the game, and tell me about how filthy Webb was with all of those dead straight changeups taken right down the middle of the plate.

 

I'm simply not buying up to this defeatist attitude that we're helpless against good pitching or the idea that we looked bad because Webb was good.

 

I'm sure Webb is going to say in the post-game "I didn't have best stuff, so I was surprised when they showed no strike zone judgement." He was being professional.

 

You're reading way too much into things if you think people are making excuses for the Cubs hitters...especially when you consider the fact that people on this board have been saying all season that this isn't a great offensive team.

 

Perhaps you should quit twisting the words of everyone in this thread and just take them at face value.