Shortstop II + Fixing the Cubs + The Future

vance_the_cubs_fan · July 22, 2007

Have you even read anything we've posted? We all admitted the only thing he could do was retire. He couldn't physically stop the trade. The argument was lost for you when you forgot or chose not to read that part of our argument.
He doesn't have to retire.

He could simply take 2 months off and become a free agent at the end of the year.

He can control where he does (or does not) go.

And how many teams would take a gander on him next offseason if he showed that kind of attitude. He practically had to beg Texas to get the job he got this year because there were concerns about his attitude. He's been close to a model citizen this year; I doubt he throws it all away because he may have reduced AB's over two months.

RichHillIsABeast · July 22, 2007

Wow reds, youre really getting out of hand here. Stop with the fluff. Make a point and stop ignoring the Vazquez point.
Yeah, Vazquez played a year, then got traded.
Soriano played a year, then refused to re-sign.
Neither team sniffed the playoffs.

That worked well.

Both of those trades happend in the offseason too, not in the middle of a pennant race where somebody could come in and cost a team a playoff run.

And seriously, you and Vance need to stop acting like mods. You're not.

I doubt Sosa's arrival is going to cost this team anything. However, we're woeful against LHP. Despite all the flaws currently in Sosa's game, hitting against LHP isn't one of them.

It's not likely to happen because of Jim. Sosa, however, doesn't have a say...and I believe he wouldn't mind the trade at all, especially as his PT in Texas begins to diminish.

No, it's just defense and all around offense that disqualifies Sosa from ever being a consideration for being on a playoff team.

I'm digging that .738 OPS. It looks like something we could nab from the AAA scrapheap.
Key there was LHP

Big whoop.

Matt Murton vs. LHP in AAA:

.328/.404/.563/.967 (128 AB)
Last i checked, that's good.

those are the wrong numbers. my bad,

.405/.511/.730/1.241 (37 AB)

reds44 · July 22, 2007

Have you even read anything we've posted? We all admitted the only thing he could do was retire. He couldn't physically stop the trade. The argument was lost for you when you forgot or chose not to read that part of our argument.
He doesn't have to retire.

He could simply take 2 months off and become a free agent at the end of the year.

He can control where he does (or does not) go.

And how many teams would take a gander on him next offseason if he showed that kind of attitude. He practically had to beg Texas to get the job he got this year because there were concerns about his attitude. He's been close to a model citizen this year; I doubt he throws it all away because he may have reduced AB's over two months.

There will always be somebody willing give him a chance. Washington last year, Texas this year and I am sure next year another bad team going nowhere will offer him a chance for a job.

Skyballer · July 22, 2007

Wow reds, youre really getting out of hand here. Stop with the fluff. Make a point and stop ignoring the Vazquez point.
Yeah, Vazquez played a year, then got traded.
Soriano played a year, then refused to re-sign.
Neither team sniffed the playoffs.

That worked well.

Both of those trades happend in the offseason too, not in the middle of a pennant race where somebody could come in and cost a team a playoff run.

And seriously, you and Vance need to stop acting like mods. You're not.

I doubt Sosa's arrival is going to cost this team anything. However, we're woeful against LHP. Despite all the flaws currently in Sosa's game, hitting against LHP isn't one of them.

It's not likely to happen because of Jim. Sosa, however, doesn't have a say...and I believe he wouldn't mind the trade at all, especially as his PT in Texas begins to diminish.

No, it's just defense and all around offense that disqualifies Sosa from ever being a consideration for being on a playoff team.

I'm digging that .738 OPS. It looks like something we could nab from the AAA scrapheap.
Key there was LHP

Big whoop.

Matt Murton vs. LHP in AAA:

.328/.404/.563/.967 (128 AB)
Last i checked, that's good.

those are the wrong numbers. my bad,

.405/.511/.730/1.241 (37 AB)

Even better, and before you go sayng it's a small sample size, he's already proved he can hit lefties well at the ML level.

Mephistopheles · July 22, 2007

Wow reds, youre really getting out of hand here. Stop with the fluff. Make a point and stop ignoring the Vazquez point.
Yeah, Vazquez played a year, then got traded.
Soriano played a year, then refused to re-sign.
Neither team sniffed the playoffs.

That worked well.

Both of those trades happend in the offseason too, not in the middle of a pennant race where somebody could come in and cost a team a playoff run.

And seriously, you and Vance need to stop acting like mods. You're not.

I doubt Sosa's arrival is going to cost this team anything. However, we're woeful against LHP. Despite all the flaws currently in Sosa's game, hitting against LHP isn't one of them.

It's not likely to happen because of Jim. Sosa, however, doesn't have a say...and I believe he wouldn't mind the trade at all, especially as his PT in Texas begins to diminish.

No, it's just defense and all around offense that disqualifies Sosa from ever being a consideration for being on a playoff team.

I'm digging that .738 OPS. It looks like something we could nab from the AAA scrapheap.
Key there was LHP

Big whoop.

Matt Murton vs. LHP in AAA:

.328/.404/.563/.967 (128 AB)

So Murton did worse in AAA against lefties than Sosa did against lefties in the majors? How exactly is this helping your arguments credibility. If you want to make an argument against Vance because you hate him. Shut up and listen to me because I will type up your argument. You can just copy and paste for all I care.

Vancey Asmodai is the dumbest person ever. Why are you even bothering listening to his antics? The point he's not telling you and you're not acknowledging is that historically there really isn't much of a platoon split for RHBs vs LHPs. All the ones who hit significantly worse against the RHPs are weeded out before they reach the majors. Sosa's 1000 OPS has only come in a handful of appearances and really won't mean all that much. If he's our starter against lefties and spells some time in RF, we're talking about a 800 OPS using your numbers and he plays half the time. That's not anything better than playing Murton against both and he's already on our team. Sosas 1000 LHP OPS is just too risky and probably is more of an anomaly more than anything. See don't listen to that idiotic loser nerd Asmodai.

There ya go RichHillIsABeast. If you spent your time actually formulating an argument instead of insulting me you might have came up with this yourself.

----- ahhh you made a numbers error. thats understandable disregard the part about that..

Edited July 22, 2007 by Mephistopheles

reds44 · July 22, 2007

Furthermore, for a player who wants to play next year and likely will have to do so with a limited role, quitting to stop a trade is not a smart move.

Now, I know Sosa is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm fairly certain he's smart enough to know that.

If he's traded, whether he likes it or not, he'll put on the happy face for two months.

It's not just a limited role. It's a limited role, plus going back to where he had so many years and was made out to be a scapegoat when he left.

Why would he want to come back here?

baseball7897 · July 22, 2007

Have you even read anything we've posted? We all admitted the only thing he could do was retire. He couldn't physically stop the trade. The argument was lost for you when you forgot or chose not to read that part of our argument.
He doesn't have to retire.

He could simply take 2 months off and become a free agent at the end of the year.

He can control where he does (or does not) go.

And how many teams would take a gander on him next offseason if he showed that kind of attitude. He practically had to beg Texas to get the job he got this year because there were concerns about his attitude. He's been close to a model citizen this year; I doubt he throws it all away because he may have reduced AB's over two months.
There will always be somebody willing give him a chance. Washington last year, Texas this year and I am sure next year another bad team going nowhere will offer him a chance for a job.

Cincinnati?

reds44 · July 22, 2007

Have you even read anything we've posted? We all admitted the only thing he could do was retire. He couldn't physically stop the trade. The argument was lost for you when you forgot or chose not to read that part of our argument.
He doesn't have to retire.

He could simply take 2 months off and become a free agent at the end of the year.

He can control where he does (or does not) go.

And how many teams would take a gander on him next offseason if he showed that kind of attitude. He practically had to beg Texas to get the job he got this year because there were concerns about his attitude. He's been close to a model citizen this year; I doubt he throws it all away because he may have reduced AB's over two months.
There will always be somebody willing give him a chance. Washington last year, Texas this year and I am sure next year another bad team going nowhere will offer him a chance for a job.

Cincinnati?

Wouldn't surprise me. Seems like a Krivsky guy to me.

vance_the_cubs_fan · July 22, 2007

Furthermore, for a player who wants to play next year and likely will have to do so with a limited role, quitting to stop a trade is not a smart move.

Now, I know Sosa is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm fairly certain he's smart enough to know that.

If he's traded, whether he likes it or not, he'll put on the happy face for two months.
It's not just a limited role. It's a limited role, plus going back to where he had so many years and was made out to be a scapegoat when he left.

Why would he want to come back here?

He loves the city. Sosa is a romantic and wants to win a championship in a city in which he was loved. He wants the adoration of the bleacher bums as he once again sprints out to Wrigley.

He wants a ring which has alluded him and he won't get in Texas. There's lots of reasons he might want to come back. Just as he were made the scapegoat, Baker could be made the scapegoat in his departure.

Mephistopheles · July 22, 2007

Furthermore, for a player who wants to play next year and likely will have to do so with a limited role, quitting to stop a trade is not a smart move.

Now, I know Sosa is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm fairly certain he's smart enough to know that.

If he's traded, whether he likes it or not, he'll put on the happy face for two months.
It's not just a limited role. It's a limited role, plus going back to where he had so many years and was made out to be a scapegoat when he left.

Why would he want to come back here?

He loves the city. Sosa is a romantic and wants to win a championship in a city in which he was loved. He wants the adoration of the bleacher bums as he once again sprints out to Wrigley.

He wants a ring which has alluded him and he won't get in Texas. There's lots of reasons he might want to come back. Just as he were made the scapegoat, Baker could be made the scapegoat in his departure.

Stop arguing that he would might come back. We all (save one Reds fan) know it could happen. I just dont think its all that good of an idea.

RichHillIsABeast · July 22, 2007

Wow reds, youre really getting out of hand here. Stop with the fluff. Make a point and stop ignoring the Vazquez point.
Yeah, Vazquez played a year, then got traded.
Soriano played a year, then refused to re-sign.
Neither team sniffed the playoffs.

That worked well.

Both of those trades happend in the offseason too, not in the middle of a pennant race where somebody could come in and cost a team a playoff run.

And seriously, you and Vance need to stop acting like mods. You're not.

I doubt Sosa's arrival is going to cost this team anything. However, we're woeful against LHP. Despite all the flaws currently in Sosa's game, hitting against LHP isn't one of them.

It's not likely to happen because of Jim. Sosa, however, doesn't have a say...and I believe he wouldn't mind the trade at all, especially as his PT in Texas begins to diminish.

No, it's just defense and all around offense that disqualifies Sosa from ever being a consideration for being on a playoff team.

I'm digging that .738 OPS. It looks like something we could nab from the AAA scrapheap.
Key there was LHP

Big whoop.

Matt Murton vs. LHP in AAA:

.328/.404/.563/.967 (128 AB)
Last i checked, that's good.

those are the wrong numbers. my bad,

.405/.511/.730/1.241 (37 AB)
Even better, and before you go sayng it's a small sample size, he's already proved he can hit lefties well at the ML level.

Where have I ragged on Murton? I'll admit, he's not my favorite player, but calling him up from AAA to platoon is better than trading for Sosa and his corked bats - I'm assuming the cork is free.

vance_the_cubs_fan · July 22, 2007

But Murton's not a proven vet like Sosa, Meph!

I'll concede that Murton might be as worthy an upgrade as Sosa. I'm not sure Murton provides the power that Sosa would bring.

reds44 · July 22, 2007

Furthermore, for a player who wants to play next year and likely will have to do so with a limited role, quitting to stop a trade is not a smart move.

Now, I know Sosa is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm fairly certain he's smart enough to know that.

If he's traded, whether he likes it or not, he'll put on the happy face for two months.
It's not just a limited role. It's a limited role, plus going back to where he had so many years and was made out to be a scapegoat when he left.

Why would he want to come back here?

He loves the city. Sosa is a romantic and wants to win a championship in a city in which he was loved. He wants the adoration of the bleacher bums as he once again sprints out to Wrigley.

He wants a ring which has alluded him and he won't get in Texas. There's lots of reasons he might want to come back. Just as he were made the scapegoat, Baker could be made the scapegoat in his departure.

Stop arguing that he would might come back. We all (save one Reds fan) know it could happen. I just dont think its all that good of an idea.

I'm glad you "know" it could happen. Too bad it won't.

Skyballer · July 22, 2007

Wow reds, youre really getting out of hand here. Stop with the fluff. Make a point and stop ignoring the Vazquez point.
Yeah, Vazquez played a year, then got traded.
Soriano played a year, then refused to re-sign.
Neither team sniffed the playoffs.

That worked well.

Both of those trades happend in the offseason too, not in the middle of a pennant race where somebody could come in and cost a team a playoff run.

And seriously, you and Vance need to stop acting like mods. You're not.

I doubt Sosa's arrival is going to cost this team anything. However, we're woeful against LHP. Despite all the flaws currently in Sosa's game, hitting against LHP isn't one of them.

It's not likely to happen because of Jim. Sosa, however, doesn't have a say...and I believe he wouldn't mind the trade at all, especially as his PT in Texas begins to diminish.

No, it's just defense and all around offense that disqualifies Sosa from ever being a consideration for being on a playoff team.

I'm digging that .738 OPS. It looks like something we could nab from the AAA scrapheap.
Key there was LHP

Big whoop.

Matt Murton vs. LHP in AAA:
.328/.404/.563/.967 (128 AB)
Last i checked, that's good.

those are the wrong numbers. my bad,

.405/.511/.730/1.241 (37 AB)
Even better, and before you go sayng it's a small sample size, he's already proved he can hit lefties well at the ML level.

Where have I ragged on Murton? I'll admit, he's not my favorite player, but calling him up from AAA to platoon is better than trading for Sosa and his corked bats - I'm assuming the cork is free.

See above bold post.

Mephistopheles · July 22, 2007

But Murton's not a proven vet like Sosa, Meph!

I'll concede that Murton might be as worthy an upgrade as Sosa. I'm not sure Murton provides the power that Sosa would bring.

Does it matter if the production is from power or getting on base? Production is production. If we're not going to play Murton, trade him to a team that would value his services (im looking at you Billy Beane). Trade Murton+ for a guy like Swish.

reds44 · July 22, 2007

But Murton's not a proven vet like Sosa, Meph!

I'll concede that Murton might be as worthy an upgrade as Sosa. I'm not sure Murton provides the power that Sosa would bring.

Does it matter if the production is from power or getting on base? Production is production. If we're not going to play Murton, trade him to a team that would value his services (im looking at you Billy Beane). Trade Murton+ for a guy like Swish.

Why would Beane deal Swisher for Murton?

Mephistopheles · July 22, 2007

But Murton's not a proven vet like Sosa, Meph!

I'll concede that Murton might be as worthy an upgrade as Sosa. I'm not sure Murton provides the power that Sosa would bring.

Does it matter if the production is from power or getting on base? Production is production. If we're not going to play Murton, trade him to a team that would value his services (im looking at you Billy Beane). Trade Murton+ for a guy like Swish.
Why would Beane deal Swisher for Murton?

He wouldnt, which is why I said Murton+

vance_the_cubs_fan · July 22, 2007

But Murton's not a proven vet like Sosa, Meph!

I'll concede that Murton might be as worthy an upgrade as Sosa. I'm not sure Murton provides the power that Sosa would bring.

Does it matter if the production is from power or getting on base? Production is production. If we're not going to play Murton, trade him to a team that would value his services (im looking at you Billy Beane). Trade Murton+ for a guy like Swish.

I understand that production is production. I'm not opposed to Murton being recalled; in fact I was opposed to his demotion.

That being said, if we could get Sosa for say Ryan Harvey or Brian Dopirak....I really don't think he'd be a bad risk.

NCCubFan · July 22, 2007

Furthermore, for a player who wants to play next year and likely will have to do so with a limited role, quitting to stop a trade is not a smart move.

Now, I know Sosa is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm fairly certain he's smart enough to know that.

If he's traded, whether he likes it or not, he'll put on the happy face for two months.
It's not just a limited role. It's a limited role, plus going back to where he had so many years and was made out to be a scapegoat when he left.

Why would he want to come back here?

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, Sosa actually contacted the Cubs about returning back in the spring, but the Cubs weren't interested at that time. If he were willing to forget the past and return then, why wouldn't he now?

Mephistopheles · July 22, 2007

But Murton's not a proven vet like Sosa, Meph!

I'll concede that Murton might be as worthy an upgrade as Sosa. I'm not sure Murton provides the power that Sosa would bring.

Does it matter if the production is from power or getting on base? Production is production. If we're not going to play Murton, trade him to a team that would value his services (im looking at you Billy Beane). Trade Murton+ for a guy like Swish.

I understand that production is production. I'm not opposed to Murton being recalled; in fact I was opposed to his demotion.

That being said, if we could get Sosa for say Ryan Harvey or Brian Dopirak....I really don't think he'd be a bad risk.

yeah but he doesnt exactly give us a big payout. id rather go fishing on dope or harvey than know what im not getting with sosa

SaorsaDaonnan · July 22, 2007

Earlier in this thread, somebody said that they think Hendry often defers to his manager. If that's true, and I think it is to an extent, we should be asking ourselves what Piniella would think.

So, what would Piniella think? Would he be happy to get an upgrade, upset at the major media distraction Sosa would produce, neutral, or what? (Obviously, I'm not including in this question Lou's opinion of the guys we would send to Texas)

Edit: for the sake of clarity, let me say from the outset that I am not that exicted about Sosa and would prefer lots of other options, but that my opposition to getting Sosa is no different from how I would feel about a player with a comparable skill/injury/volatility set but none of the history)

Edited July 22, 2007 by SaorsaDaonnan

RichHillIsABeast · July 22, 2007

But Murton's not a proven vet like Sosa, Meph!

I'll concede that Murton might be as worthy an upgrade as Sosa. I'm not sure Murton provides the power that Sosa would bring.

Does it matter if the production is from power or getting on base? Production is production. If we're not going to play Murton, trade him to a team that would value his services (im looking at you Billy Beane). Trade Murton+ for a guy like Swish.

I understand that production is production. I'm not opposed to Murton being recalled; in fact I was opposed to his demotion.

That being said, if we could get Sosa for say Ryan Harvey or Brian Dopirak....I really don't think he'd be a bad risk.

yeah but he doesnt exactly give us a big payout. id rather go fishing on dope or harvey than know what im not getting with sosa

I agree with you there. Isn't it sad when Sosa isn't worth Dope or Harvey?

But wait, he mashes against LHP. Get him!!

Jazz · July 22, 2007

Ok my 2 cents.

FIRST and foremost. While sammy has been good against lefties this year, and historically has mauled them, I think I'd be content with just platooning murton with floyd/jones. Either way though, I'd welcome Sammy in open arms, I love the guy.

2nd. The idea that a player can sway trade talks WITHOUT an NTC is just ridiculous, I think the examples of Soriano and Vazquez have already been brought up. Plain and simple, Sosa is just as likely to get traded if the GM wants it so as say, Ryan Theriot. THERE IS NO BASIS TO SAY OTHERWISE. The only reason that it wouldn't happen is if the GM's didn't want it to work out that way. Without an NTC, Sosa is as much a pawn as the next guy, 600 Home Runs or not. PERIOD.

3rdly, we won't get Sosa. Hendry isn't smart enough to see him as an upgrade, and wouldn't want him anyway, so this whole discussion is all for naught.

Flames24Rulz · July 22, 2007

Ok my 2 cents.

FIRST and foremost. While sammy has been good against lefties this year, and historically has mauled them, I think I'd be content with just platooning murton with floyd/jones. Either way though, I'd welcome Sammy in open arms, I love the guy.

2nd. The idea that a player can sway trade talks WITHOUT an NTC is just ridiculous, I think the examples of Soriano and Vazquez have already been brought up. Plain and simple, Sosa is just as likely to get traded if the GM wants it so as say, Ryan Theriot. THERE IS NO BASIS TO SAY OTHERWISE. The only reason that it wouldn't happen is if the GM's didn't want it to work out that way. Without an NTC, Sosa is as much a pawn as the next guy, 600 Home Runs or not. PERIOD.

3rdly, we won't get Sosa. Hendry isn't smart enough to see him as an upgrade, and wouldn't want him anyway, so this whole discussion is all for naught.

I'll agree with you. I'd love to see Sosa back here, but like you said, I doubt Hendry sees him as an upgrade.

Shavo · July 22, 2007

Trade for Nady.

Shortstop II + Fixing the Cubs + The Future

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