we should do this

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

There is a hole in your logic large enough to drive an aircraft carrier through. At the same time Asmodai's argument is the sort of thing W would be proud of.

 

That said, I'd like to see Cedeno playing every day. But I'd like to see Murton and Pie playing too. That won't be happening either.

 

What? Please explain. Here in the nonfantasysabremetricswhatever world the Cubs are one of the hottest teams in baseball.

 

Why exactly would you change what is working? Pie, Murton, and Cedeno have ALL shown that they can't handle a Major League job with the Cubs. Theriot, Pagan, and the other players who have been put in the lineup are part of the reason the Cubs are now considered contenders.

 

They have been producing. The Cubs have been winning.

 

That is all that matters.

 

Can you explain what about Murton's 294/363/441 shows he can't handle a major league job?

[CubinNY]

There is a hole in your logic large enough to drive an aircraft carrier through. At the same time Asmodai's argument is the sort of thing W would be proud of.

 

That said, I'd like to see Cedeno playing every day. But I'd like to see Murton and Pie playing too. That won't be happening either.

 

What? Please explain. Here in the nonfantasysabremetricswhatever world the Cubs are one of the hottest teams in baseball.

 

Why exactly would you change what is working? Pie, Murton, and Cedeno have ALL shown that they can't handle a Major League job with the Cubs. Theriot, Pagan, and the other players who have been put in the lineup are part of the reason the Cubs are now considered contenders.

 

They have been producing. The Cubs have been winning.

 

That is all that matters.

 

Point 1

Let me try this on you: David Ecstein was the SS for the Cardianls last year. Was he the reason why they won? Is his absence this year the reason why they suck?

 

Point 2 (see bolded part)

Not quite.

 

I love the part about "nonfantasysabremetricswhatever world". Go with it.

[Abe Frohman]

Vance - I retract. Murton wasn't a fit. He's not a RFer.

 

CubNY - again, please explain. Pie is ready defensively, but had to be sent down for the same reason that Cedeno lost his job - they swing a rubber bat.

 

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak. The Cubs are playing good ball right now. If they can dump Jones and Izturis, then replace them with Cedeno and Pie. Until then, those two are better off playing in Iowa and getting ready for the stretch.

[jersey cubs fan]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

[Abe Frohman]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

[CubinNY]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

Because they are have the potential to be better than the people they will replace.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Vance - I retract. Murton wasn't a fit. He's not a RFer.

 

.

 

And Floyd is?

 

Murton may have looked a little lost in RF, but no worse than Floyd. If Murton doesn't fit, neither does Floyd.

 

And word is he's making some spectacular plays in RF for Iowa.

 

The big mistake was putting Sori in left instead of RF which would have solved a lot of problems.

 

Either way, Murton should be on the team. I'll admit he struggled in his limited time, but so have a lot of our players.

 

I think his 600+ AB's preceeding this season are more indicative of his abilities than the 100 or so he had earlier this year.

[Abe Frohman]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

Because they are have the potential to be better than the people they will replace.

 

That's true, but the Cubs are winning now with what they have. Why change that?

 

Vance - I totally agree that the "Soriano Experiment" should have started with him in RF in Spring Training. I never understood why they didn't go with Murton in LF, Pie in CF, and Soriano in RF. I like Murton, and the Floyd point is legit. I have no idea why they wouldn't stick with Murton in RF (even though I don't think he is a RF, or ever will be), but would run Floyd out there.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Abe Frohman

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

 

Ryan Braun

[bring stone back]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

Because they are have the potential to be better than the people they will replace.

 

Doesn't this go against the "win now" mentality?

 

I don't think Hendry/Piniella can justify giving at bats to Cedeno or Murton right now because they MIGHT be better. We saw them earlier in the year and they were worse than the alternatives.

[bring stone back]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

 

Ryan Braun

 

Yeah - that's an appropriate comparison.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

Because they are have the potential to be better than the people they will replace.

 

Doesn't this go against the "win now" mentality?

 

I don't think Hendry/Piniella can justify giving at bats to Cedeno or Murton right now because they MIGHT be better. We saw them earlier in the year and they were worse than the alternatives.

 

The point is there's very little to lose. Theriot/Izturis, Pagan, and Floyd have all been varying degrees of mediocre to bad.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

 

Ryan Braun

 

Yeah - that's an appropriate comparison.

 

Very much so. The Brewers were winning with Counsellino as their 3rd baseman, why bother risk bringing up Braun?

[bring stone back]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

Because they are have the potential to be better than the people they will replace.

 

Doesn't this go against the "win now" mentality?

 

I don't think Hendry/Piniella can justify giving at bats to Cedeno or Murton right now because they MIGHT be better. We saw them earlier in the year and they were worse than the alternatives.

 

The point is there's very little to lose. Theriot/Izturis, Pagan, and Floyd have all been varying degrees of mediocre to bad.

 

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

(That point you made about having little to lose was the thought process used behind getting Jason Kendall although that trade was slammed throughout this board).

[bring stone back]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

 

Ryan Braun

 

Yeah - that's an appropriate comparison.

 

Very much so. The Brewers were winning with Counsellino as their 3rd baseman, why bother risk bringing up Braun?

 

Ryan Braun is a much, much, much better baseball player than Cedeno, Murton or Pie. Not a fair comparison.

 

Forget the fact that when Pie, Murton and Cedeno had their opportunities this year they failed. When Braun got his opportunity - he was an overwhelming success.

[CubinNY]

 

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

(That point you made about having little to lose was the thought process used behind getting Jason Kendall although that trade was slammed throughout this board).

 

Holy snikes. They were and are not worse. They all had slumps/adjustment periods that they weren't allowed to work through. Cedeno is absolutely destroying AAA pitching. Pie and Murton cannot be worse than JJ and Ward/Floyd over the long haul.

 

I don't think the Kendall trade was slammed throughout this board, not even close.

[UBlink]

(That point you made about having little to lose was the thought process used behind getting Jason Kendall although that trade was slammed throughout this board).

 

There were some slamming that trade, but my read was the overall tone was summed up nicely by the founder:

 

"meh"

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

Because they are have the potential to be better than the people they will replace.

 

Doesn't this go against the "win now" mentality?

 

I don't think Hendry/Piniella can justify giving at bats to Cedeno or Murton right now because they MIGHT be better. We saw them earlier in the year and they were worse than the alternatives.

 

The point is there's very little to lose. Theriot/Izturis, Pagan, and Floyd have all been varying degrees of mediocre to bad.

 

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

(That point you made about having little to lose was the thought process used behind getting Jason Kendall although that trade was slammed throughout this board).

 

Murton put up an .800 OPS in the major leagues last year over nearly a full season, and actually had a month that was worse than the bad month that led him to being demoted this year.

 

Pie lost his job for a 2 week slump, and has been beating the life out of the ball in AAA all year. Pagan went through a nearly identical slump when he was forced to play against RH and LH shorthly thereafter.

 

Like Pie, Cedeno hardly got a chance this year, and is torching AAA. He deserves a shot to see if he's worked out his problems from last year.

 

Comparing it to the Kendall trade, there are several differences. Namely, that acquiring Kendall costs resources, blocks future upgrades at the position, and has significantly less upside than the comparison of promoting Murton/Pie/Cedeno.

[BigbadB]

Cedeno is definitely the best option and he'd probably already be here if it weren't for Izturis. That guy needs to be traded BAD. Today would be a good day for that. Yesterday would be even better.

[bring stone back]

 

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

(That point you made about having little to lose was the thought process used behind getting Jason Kendall although that trade was slammed throughout this board).

 

Holy snikes. They were and are not worse. They all had slumps/adjustment periods that they weren't allowed to work through. Cedeno is absolutely destroying AAA pitching. Pie and Murton cannot be worse than JJ and Ward/Floyd over the long haul.

 

I don't think the Kendall trade was slammed throughout this board, not even close.

 

The Kendall trade was indeed slammed or viewed as a bad trade by the Cubs by MOST on the board.

 

Murton, Cedeno and Pie were indeed worse than their counterparts earlier this year. What else can Piniella make judgments on - what he hopes or thinks someone might do? He has to give at bats and playing time based on what he's seen and production. I would expect nothing less.

[soapy]

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

-Murton is clearly better than Floyd against lefties. DeRosa should be at 2B, with Murton RF against lefties. It's beyond stupid to delay this.

 

-Pie is not likely to perform any worse offensively than Pagan or Jones and is far better defensively than either. He's always adjusted well after moving up a level, and I don't see why he wouldn't do so again, given time.

 

-Cedeno is a good bet to be better than Izturis and certainly isn't likely to be worse.

 

The bottom line is none of these moves will make the Cubs worse, and all have a decent chance to actually make them better. Saying you can't give these guys a shot and keep winning is beyond absurd. It's just plain wrong.

[jersey cubs fan]

I have every confidence that both of them are going to be great Cubs - I just think it is unrealistic to be calling for them to be inserted on this team right now.

 

Everyone in baseball knows that you don't f with a winning streak.

 

The Cubs aren't on a winning streak.

 

The Cubs are winning. Please, explain to us why now would be a good time to make Murton, Pie, and Cedeno starters.

 

Because the point is not to be as good as they are, the point is to be as good as they can be, and each one of those guys has a good opportunity to be better than what is already on the team.

 

I'm as happy as anybody that the Cubs have gotten themselves in the race. But to pretend for a second that the last 3-4 weeks of success means there's no room for improvement is just plain wrong. The Cubs have numerous weak spots, and they should look to improve at all of them. With a lack of any super productive bat in the lineup, the Cubs offense needs to rely on as many spots as possible producing, which means avoiding any blackhole type production. With several underperforming spots in the lineup, most notably SS, CF and RF, and the Cubs currently getting solid AAA production out of quality prospects at each of those positions, there's really no good reason not to give one or all of those guys another look, now.

[bring stone back]

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

-Murton is clearly better than Floyd against lefties. DeRosa should be at 2B, with Murton RF against lefties. It's beyond stupid to delay this.

 

-Pie is not likely to perform any worse offensively than Pagan or Jones and is far better defensively than either. He's always adjusted well after moving up a level, and I don't see why he wouldn't do so again, given time.

 

-Cedeno is a good bet to be better than Izturis and certainly isn't likely to be worse.

 

The bottom line is none of these moves will make the Cubs worse, and all have a decent chance to actually make them better. Saying you can't give these guys a shot and keep winning is beyond absurd. It's just plain wrong.

 

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

[Abe Frohman]

I see your point but Murton, Cedeno and Pie were worse than those you mentioned above. Why do they deserve to be called back up when the other guys have outproduced them? They don't...not right now.

 

-Murton is clearly better than Floyd against lefties. DeRosa should be at 2B, with Murton RF against lefties. It's beyond stupid to delay this.

 

-Pie is not likely to perform any worse offensively than Pagan or Jones and is far better defensively than either. He's always adjusted well after moving up a level, and I don't see why he wouldn't do so again, given time.

 

-Cedeno is a good bet to be better than Izturis and certainly isn't likely to be worse.

 

The bottom line is none of these moves will make the Cubs worse, and all have a decent chance to actually make them better. Saying you can't give these guys a shot and keep winning is beyond absurd. It's just plain wrong.

 

I really can't disagree with any of your points above. The only conflict is with the third point concerning Cedeno. Piniella seems to love Fontenot and Theriot for obvious reasons (even though Fontenot is in a terrible slump).

 

I think the concensus would agree that the main reason Murton, Cedeno, and Pie are still in AAA is because Izturis and Jones have not been moved. What if Jones starts getting productive, though? In addition, how hard would it be for the Cubs to trade those two if they are rotting on the bench? I think they realize this and maybe that's why Jones has been starting more lately...

[jersey cubs fan]

Again, you're making these lineup decisions based on what you think or hope will happen. When Pie was up, he was outperformed by Pagan....same can be said for Murton. Sadly, when Cedeno was up, he was outperformed by Izturis and that's hard to do.

 

The fact is those 3 players had their opportunity earlier in the year and all 3 failed or did not meet expectations.

 

All lineup decisions should be based on reasonable expectations of what you think will happen. Making a decision based on 3 weeks of comparisons from a month or two ago is stupid.