ESPN Cubs Rumblings...

[Amazing_Grace]

Pretending the Jones/Floyd/Murton pileup isn't a bad thing doesn't make it so.

 

Pagan is the backup CF, the only legit one of the team. Jones on the roster means less ABs for Floyd and Murton. Jones off the team means more AB for Floyd and Murton.

 

The salary is blown one way or the other. Keeping him doesn't make the payments any easier.

 

The question is pay him to suck or pay him not to play, while at the same time taking a chance somebody else would pick him up and cleaning up your screwed up roster.

 

Why is the natural conclusion so obvious to us yet the Cubs management never seem to get it. Hundley practically screamed DFA me and yet the Cubs took on 2 bad players, one of whom blocked their best positon prospect at the time. If you add up Hundley's 2 years and compare that with Karros and Grudz 1 year apiece salaries added up, the Cubs really didn't save much money. It ended up working out great, but that was only by pure dumb luck. No one could have reasonably predicted both Karros and Grudz would have rebounded to produce what they did.

 

Look at Eyre. He's been far far worse than Jones AND he makes less money and the Cubs haven't DFAed him yet. I think this team is run by a bunch of morons using stupid business logic. After all, the Trib. was run so poorly they had to sell their company to avoid bankruptcy, why should we expect intelligent decisions out of the people they choose to manage their baseball team.

 

I expect Piniella is ready to pull his hair out by now. I think he probably would have cut Eyre at least a long time ago had it been his decision.

[jjgman21]

Pretending the Jones/Floyd/Murton pileup isn't a bad thing doesn't make it so.

 

Pagan is the backup CF, the only legit one of the team. Jones on the roster means less ABs for Floyd and Murton. Jones off the team means more AB for Floyd and Murton.

 

The salary is blown one way or the other. Keeping him doesn't make the payments any easier.

 

The question is pay him to suck or pay him not to play, while at the same time taking a chance somebody else would pick him up and cleaning up your screwed up roster.

 

Why is the natural conclusion so obvious to us yet the Cubs management never seem to get it. Hundley practically screamed DFA me and yet the Cubs took on 2 bad players, one of whom blocked their best positon prospect at the time. If you add up Hundley's 2 years and compare that with Karros and Grudz 1 year apiece salaries added up, the Cubs really didn't save much money. It ended up working out great, but that was only by pure dumb luck. No one could have reasonably predicted both Karros and Grudz would have rebounded to produce what they did.

 

 

even if they didn't rebound, that was a good move. when the trade was made, it was made in part to get the books cleared earlier. the team they had came pretty cheap outside of Sosa and Alou, so that was the year to clear the salary. Wood was going to be a FA at the end of the year, and there were plenty of other obvious holes that would need to be addressed. it was a rare case of foresight IMO.

 

in addition, at the time the trade was made, the Cubs planned on having two rookies manning the right side of the infield. it is not a bad idea having veteran backups in that situation, especially Karros, who was still doing quite well vs. lefties when the Cubs acquired him.

[Danny82]

Pretending the Jones/Floyd/Murton pileup isn't a bad thing doesn't make it so.

 

Pagan is the backup CF, the only legit one of the team. Jones on the roster means less ABs for Floyd and Murton. Jones off the team means more AB for Floyd and Murton.

 

The salary is blown one way or the other. Keeping him doesn't make the payments any easier.

 

The question is pay him to suck or pay him not to play, while at the same time taking a chance somebody else would pick him up and cleaning up your screwed up roster.

 

Why is the natural conclusion so obvious to us yet the Cubs management never seem to get it. Hundley practically screamed DFA me and yet the Cubs took on 2 bad players, one of whom blocked their best positon prospect at the time. If you add up Hundley's 2 years and compare that with Karros and Grudz 1 year apiece salaries added up, the Cubs really didn't save much money. It ended up working out great, but that was only by pure dumb luck. No one could have reasonably predicted both Karros and Grudz would have rebounded to produce what they did.

.

 

Right. No one. Just dumb luck. Your line of thought can never be wrong under such scrutiny. Must be nice.

 

Even if the trade works out for the better, it's just dumb luck. Nobody wins but your opinion.

 

Too bad baseball isn't nearly that simple.

[SouthSideRyan]

Pretending the Jones/Floyd/Murton pileup isn't a bad thing doesn't make it so.

 

Pagan is the backup CF, the only legit one of the team. Jones on the roster means less ABs for Floyd and Murton. Jones off the team means more AB for Floyd and Murton.

 

The salary is blown one way or the other. Keeping him doesn't make the payments any easier.

 

The question is pay him to suck or pay him not to play, while at the same time taking a chance somebody else would pick him up and cleaning up your screwed up roster.

 

Why is the natural conclusion so obvious to us yet the Cubs management never seem to get it. Hundley practically screamed DFA me and yet the Cubs took on 2 bad players, one of whom blocked their best positon prospect at the time. If you add up Hundley's 2 years and compare that with Karros and Grudz 1 year apiece salaries added up, the Cubs really didn't save much money. It ended up working out great, but that was only by pure dumb luck. No one could have reasonably predicted both Karros and Grudz would have rebounded to produce what they did.

 

 

This is loony.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Again, why not send Pagan down?

I anticipate Pagan being sent down when Floyd returns from the bereavement list.

 

I believe you anticipate wrong. As good as Pie has been, he is overmatched against LHP, Cubs will need to platoon him for now, and Pagan is the only guy that can be that platoon partner.

 

No, the move needs to be a trade of either Murton or Jones, there is no room for three RFs on this ballclub. One of them has to go, and because of his pop, Floyd won't be that guy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pie has to learn to hit LHP some time. Since the callup he went 1 for 4 with an RBI single and no K's against James. He hasn't looked overmatched, and more importantly, he played and Pagan did not. Even if he does struggle against them, he'll still be a signifcantly better defender than Pagan, in a lineup with 3 great RH hitters(Lee, Ramirez, Soriano), and several more with outstanding splits against LHP(Barrett, DeRosa, Murton), so he's not going to drag the offense down.

[Keener98]

Again, why not send Pagan down?

I anticipate Pagan being sent down when Floyd returns from the bereavement list.

 

I believe you anticipate wrong. As good as Pie has been, he is overmatched against LHP, Cubs will need to platoon him for now, and Pagan is the only guy that can be that platoon partner.

 

No, the move needs to be a trade of either Murton or Jones, there is no room for three RFs on this ballclub. One of them has to go, and because of his pop, Floyd won't be that guy.

 

Pie held his own pretty good against the lefty starter the other day. He definatly wasnt as lost as Jones looks against lefties, and Izturis vs any pitcher.

[Amazing_Grace]

Pretending the Jones/Floyd/Murton pileup isn't a bad thing doesn't make it so.

 

Pagan is the backup CF, the only legit one of the team. Jones on the roster means less ABs for Floyd and Murton. Jones off the team means more AB for Floyd and Murton.

 

The salary is blown one way or the other. Keeping him doesn't make the payments any easier.

 

The question is pay him to suck or pay him not to play, while at the same time taking a chance somebody else would pick him up and cleaning up your screwed up roster.

 

Why is the natural conclusion so obvious to us yet the Cubs management never seem to get it. Hundley practically screamed DFA me and yet the Cubs took on 2 bad players, one of whom blocked their best positon prospect at the time. If you add up Hundley's 2 years and compare that with Karros and Grudz 1 year apiece salaries added up, the Cubs really didn't save much money. It ended up working out great, but that was only by pure dumb luck. No one could have reasonably predicted both Karros and Grudz would have rebounded to produce what they did.

.

 

Right. No one. Just dumb luck. Your line of thought can never be wrong under such scrutiny. Must be nice.

 

Even if the trade works out for the better, it's just dumb luck. Nobody wins but your opinion.

 

Too bad baseball isn't nearly that simple.

 

I try to be consistent. If I think a trade is bad, I think it's bad based on the information available beforehand. The Hundley trade was not a good trade. It was a desperation trade so the Cubs wouldn't have to eat a contract and it ended up great. However, that's hindsight. What I'm saying is that looking at Karros and Grudz career stats, trends, and age, the most likely possibility was a continued decline, no better than Hundley. If they'd just released the guy, they could have been done with it and not had to take such a risk, and ended up spending about the same amount of money over the long term.

 

In hindsight, the trade looks great, but it didn't look great when it was made and many people pointed that out. Maybe Hundley isn't the best comparison to make. I was just pointing out another instance when the Cubs had a situation where they should have just released a player, and didn't. I could just as easily point to Alf, Latroi, Rusch, etc. where we kept paying a guy to make the team worse rather than pay him to leave.

 

Maybe the Cubs will turn rocks into gold again, but I wouldn't hold my breath. As long as Jones is taking ABs away from Murton with a sub .320 OBP, I'll want him out of Chicago at any cost.

[Yestheydo]

Again, why not send Pagan down?

I anticipate Pagan being sent down when Floyd returns from the bereavement list.

 

I believe you anticipate wrong. As good as Pie has been, he is overmatched against LHP, Cubs will need to platoon him for now, and Pagan is the only guy that can be that platoon partner.

 

No, the move needs to be a trade of either Murton or Jones, there is no room for three RFs on this ballclub. One of them has to go, and because of his pop, Floyd won't be that guy.

 

Pie held his own pretty good against the lefty starter the other day. He definatly wasnt as lost as Jones looks against lefties, and Izturis vs any pitcher.

 

I'm thinking if Pie is hurting the offense against lefties, he'll bat eighth against them, with Theriot or DeRosa moving up to 2nd. But I bet he plays pretty much every day.

[SouthSideRyan]

I honestly don't remember a single person who didn't like the Hundley trade at the time. The only objections were that Grudz and Karros would block the younger guys, on a talent for talent basis, and figuring money into account that our books would be clear for when we make our run in '04 :(

 

And Latroy is another poor example. Hendry traded him with a year+ on his contract for Aardsma, who was a pretty good relief prospect at the time and Williams who looked like he could be salvaged as a #4 starter.

[Outshined_One]

And Latroy is another poor example. Hendry traded him with a year+ on his contract for Aardsma, who was a pretty good relief prospect at the time and Williams who looked like he could be salvaged as a #4 starter.

 

I'm still scratching my head over what happened to Jerome Williams. It looked like he had finally figured everything out at the end of 2005, then he just completely fell off the face of the planet in 2006.

 

It's kind of strange how no one talks about the impact his ineffectiveness had on this team since 2006, especially considering he had a rotation spot locked down after 2005.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

And Latroy is another poor example. Hendry traded him with a year+ on his contract for Aardsma, who was a pretty good relief prospect at the time and Williams who looked like he could be salvaged as a #4 starter.

 

I'm still scratching my head over what happened to Jerome Williams. It looked like he had finally figured everything out at the end of 2005, then he just completely fell off the face of the planet in 2006.

 

It's kind of strange how no one talks about the impact his ineffectiveness had on this team since 2006, especially considering he had a rotation spot locked down after 2005.

 

I think Williams's downfall was his work ethic and ability to stay in shape.