Cubs need a closer

[goonys evil twin]

I think we need to make a distinction here between a planned "Closer by Committee" and "We can't find a pitcher that doesn't suck to finish games."

 

Exactly. How much of Dempster's suckage occurred because he didn't see enough work to close games to begin with?

 

Same deal with Eddie Guardado when he was with the Mariners.

 

I think Ryan Dempster's suckage had a lot more to do with Ryan Dempster sucking than with his lack of consistent work.

 

Dempster doesn't suck. He's not very good, but he doesn't suck. He's OK. He's actually a decent option at closer, because closer is not necessarily where you want your best reliever.

[David]

I've never been a fan of "closer by committee" but if it works out-- fine...but it usually doesn't. Guys need to know what their roles are. But the good thing is if Howry, Wood, Wuertz, or whoever doesn't work out, Hendry has plenty of time to bring someone else in. I agree that the Cubs need a good SS, CF, and they need to lock up Z...But to down play the importance of a good reliable closer is wrong. Who in their right mind wants a repeat of th '06 Season? Two years ago when Hawkins was struggling as our closer, Hendry should have addressed the problem then, and gone out and gotten someone who was proven. If we would have had a dependable closer in 2005, we would have made the playoffs.

 

Dempster blew 2 saves in '05 and the Cubs won both those games.

 

Obviously, he meant '04.

[David]

I think we need to make a distinction here between a planned "Closer by Committee" and "We can't find a pitcher that doesn't suck to finish games."

 

Exactly. How much of Dempster's suckage occurred because he didn't see enough work to close games to begin with?

 

Same deal with Eddie Guardado when he was with the Mariners.

 

I think Ryan Dempster's suckage had a lot more to do with Ryan Dempster sucking than with his lack of consistent work.

 

Dempster doesn't suck. He's not very good, but he doesn't suck. He's OK. He's actually a decent option at closer, because closer is not necessarily where you want your best reliever.

 

I agree about the last point.

 

Still, in my book, a 1.46 WHIP over the last 3 years (.340 OBP against) and a 1.55 WHIP (.360 OBP against) for his career is pretty close to qualifying as sucking. He walks far too many hitters. But, I mean, why argue over terminology? Whether he's "not very good" or "sucks," I dont' want him.

[goonys evil twin]

I've never been a fan of "closer by committee" but if it works out-- fine...but it usually doesn't. Guys need to know what their roles are. But the good thing is if Howry, Wood, Wuertz, or whoever doesn't work out, Hendry has plenty of time to bring someone else in. I agree that the Cubs need a good SS, CF, and they need to lock up Z...But to down play the importance of a good reliable closer is wrong. Who in their right mind wants a repeat of th '06 Season? Two years ago when Hawkins was struggling as our closer, Hendry should have addressed the problem then, and gone out and gotten someone who was proven. If we would have had a dependable closer in 2005, we would have made the playoffs.

 

Dempster blew 2 saves in '05 and the Cubs won both those games.

 

Obviously, he meant '04.

 

I hate when people get all hot and bothered begging the GM to go get a proven closer. Antonio Alfonseca is what happens when your GM goe after a proven closer that is available. The true greats, like Rivera, don't become available. The really good ones that are available are hit or miss. And there aren't that many available. It's like people who beg for a "true leadoff hitter". Screw that. Just get good hitters. Likewise, get good pitchers. Many winning teams just pull closers out of their butt, moreso than any other position. The worst thing you can do is try and build your bullpen with a series of big deals, because relievers have a short shelf life.

[David]

I hate when people get all hot and bothered begging the GM to go get a proven closer. Antonio Alfonseca is what happens when your GM goe after a proven closer that is available. The true greats, like Rivera, don't become available. The really good ones that are available are hit or miss. And there aren't that many available. It's like people who beg for a "true leadoff hitter". Screw that. Just get good hitters. Likewise, get good pitchers. Many winning teams just pull closers out of their butt, moreso than any other position. The worst thing you can do is try and build your bullpen with a series of big deals, because relievers have a short shelf life.

 

Couldn't agree more.

[cheapseats]

 

I hate when people get all hot and bothered begging the GM to go get a proven closer. Antonio Alfonseca is what happens when your GM goe after a proven closer that is available. The true greats, like Rivera, don't become available. The really good ones that are available are hit or miss. And there aren't that many available. It's like people who beg for a "true leadoff hitter". Screw that. Just get good hitters. Likewise, get good pitchers. Many winning teams just pull closers out of their butt, moreso than any other position. The worst thing you can do is try and build your bullpen with a series of big deals, because relievers have a short shelf life.

 

I don't know what's in the water today, but I agree with you 100%. How do we even define "proven closer?"

 

Dusty Baker wanted to go with Latroy Hawkins in 2005 because he had "done it before" and Dempster hadn't. So what?

 

I don't even know how to determine if a closer is successful or not. In 2004, 2005, and 2006, there were only 11 teams that converted 75% or more of their save opportunities.

 

I'd actually rather build my bullpen the way the Twins have done it, by bringing up cheap guys who can pitch for league minimum. The Twins have broken in starters like Santana and Liriano by bringing them out of the pen at first. The Cubs did the same with Zambrano. Earl Weaver used to do it all the time.

 

I'd rather have Guzman, for example, regularly pitching out of the bullpen in the majors than gaining more experience in the minors.

[TruffleShuffle]

Marte had 4 saves the whole year. And Guillen made it very clear that, if it was all lefties, he would bring in Marte. That's a lot different than using a bullpen by committee

 

Again, there's a whole article about it, and Kenny Williams acknowledged the non-traditional bullpen usage.

 

Earlier you said "This never works in practice." Feel free to give an example other than the 2003 Red Sox.

 

2004 Chicago Cubs.

 

yeah that one was too easy

[soapy]

Marte had 4 saves the whole year. And Guillen made it very clear that, if it was all lefties, he would bring in Marte. That's a lot different than using a bullpen by committee

 

Again, there's a whole article about it, and Kenny Williams acknowledged the non-traditional bullpen usage.

 

Earlier you said "This never works in practice." Feel free to give an example other than the 2003 Red Sox.

 

2004 Chicago Cubs.

 

yeah that one was too easy

 

But as was stated, that's a situation where the bullpens were just plain bad. It's not like the 2003 Sox and 2004 Cubs were rotating good relievers in the closer role and watching them fail because none of them was a "closer". Their pens just plain sucked.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

There's a rather significant difference between "closer by committee" and trying a reliever at closer until he fails, then trying a different one until he fails, and so on.

[TruffleShuffle]

Marte had 4 saves the whole year. And Guillen made it very clear that, if it was all lefties, he would bring in Marte. That's a lot different than using a bullpen by committee

 

Again, there's a whole article about it, and Kenny Williams acknowledged the non-traditional bullpen usage.

 

Earlier you said "This never works in practice." Feel free to give an example other than the 2003 Red Sox.

 

2004 Chicago Cubs.

 

yeah that one was too easy

 

Cubs' pen was 15th of 30 in ERA among MLB teams in 2004.

 

But as was stated, that's a situation where the bullpens were just plain bad. It's not like the 2003 Sox and 2004 Cubs were rotating good relievers in the closer role and watching them fail because none of them was a "closer". Their pens just plain sucked.

[goonys evil twin]

Marte had 4 saves the whole year. And Guillen made it very clear that, if it was all lefties, he would bring in Marte. That's a lot different than using a bullpen by committee

 

Again, there's a whole article about it, and Kenny Williams acknowledged the non-traditional bullpen usage.

 

Earlier you said "This never works in practice." Feel free to give an example other than the 2003 Red Sox.

 

2004 Chicago Cubs.

 

yeah that one was too easy

 

Cubs' pen was 15th of 30 in ERA among MLB teams in 2004.

 

But as was stated, that's a situation where the bullpens were just plain bad. It's not like the 2003 Sox and 2004 Cubs were rotating good relievers in the closer role and watching them fail because none of them was a "closer". Their pens just plain sucked.

Cubs' pen was 15th of 30 in ERA among MLB teams in 2004.

 

Yeah? And they didn't try closer by committee. They tried to send an injured Joe Borowski out there, because he was "proven", then they sent Hawkins out there until he melted. That's not closer by committee.

[TruffleShuffle]

Yeah? And they didn't try closer by committee. They tried to send an injured Joe Borowski out there, because he was "proven", then they sent Hawkins out there until he melted. That's not closer by committee.

 

I'm still pretty pissed off that they stayed with Hawkins even though he just sucked as a closer. That team had one hell of a rotation and Prior was really coming on at the end of the year. Thanks Latroy/Dusty.

[goonys evil twin]

Yeah? And they didn't try closer by committee. They tried to send an injured Joe Borowski out there, because he was "proven", then they sent Hawkins out there until he melted. That's not closer by committee.

 

I'm still pretty pissed off that they stayed with Hawkins even though he just sucked as a closer. That team had one hell of a rotation and Prior was really coming on at the end of the year. Thanks Latroy/Dusty.

 

Ironically, they may very well have made the playoffs if Dusty just started Hawkins in the 9th against the Mets instead of putting him in after Dempster let 2 guys get on base.

[CubinNY]

Yeah? And they didn't try closer by committee. They tried to send an injured Joe Borowski out there, because he was "proven", then they sent Hawkins out there until he melted. That's not closer by committee.

 

I'm still pretty pissed off that they stayed with Hawkins even though he just sucked as a closer. That team had one hell of a rotation and Prior was really coming on at the end of the year. Thanks Latroy/Dusty.

 

In 2004 I was at two of the memorable Hawkins's efforts.

 

Eric' Milton's near no-hitter, then near loss after Patterson roped a double. LaTroy loses it in the bottom of the 9th.

 

The final week in Shea when Victor Diaz went deep.

 

Both times Prior started the game and pitched very well.

[mg420]

Yeah? And they didn't try closer by committee. They tried to send an injured Joe Borowski out there, because he was "proven", then they sent Hawkins out there until he melted. That's not closer by committee.

 

I'm still pretty pissed off that they stayed with Hawkins even though he just sucked as a closer. That team had one hell of a rotation and Prior was really coming on at the end of the year. Thanks Latroy/Dusty.

 

the two biggest things dusty couldnt seem to understand were that remlinger couldnt get lefties out and hawkins couldnt close games. i wonder how many games those mental blocks cost the cubs?

[YearofDaCubs]

Yeah? And they didn't try closer by committee. They tried to send an injured Joe Borowski out there, because he was "proven", then they sent Hawkins out there until he melted. That's not closer by committee.

 

I'm still pretty pissed off that they stayed with Hawkins even though he just sucked as a closer. That team had one hell of a rotation and Prior was really coming on at the end of the year. Thanks Latroy/Dusty.

I put the blame squarely on Baker for not making the change and being so thick headed about even trying to use another pitcher in that role. This is actually the time I started to sour on Hendry for not getting us a proven RP to take over the closer role when it was obvious to even monkeys a move had to be made. He finally tried to make a move when waivers were intact for jose mesa but obviously it got blocked.

[SouthSideRyan]

I've never been a fan of "closer by committee" but if it works out-- fine...but it usually doesn't. Guys need to know what their roles are. But the good thing is if Howry, Wood, Wuertz, or whoever doesn't work out, Hendry has plenty of time to bring someone else in. I agree that the Cubs need a good SS, CF, and they need to lock up Z...But to down play the importance of a good reliable closer is wrong. Who in their right mind wants a repeat of th '06 Season? Two years ago when Hawkins was struggling as our closer, Hendry should have addressed the problem then, and gone out and gotten someone who was proven. If we would have had a dependable closer in 2005, we would have made the playoffs.

 

Dempster blew 2 saves in '05 and the Cubs won both those games.

 

Obviously, he meant '04.

 

I thought he might've meant that, but there's still a point to be made there. The Cubs didn't get the proven closer for '05, and they wound up winning EVERY game he came in to close. The Cubs "proven closer" went down in '03 and some bum who was AAA fodder the year before became a great closer that year.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

The Cubs have a closer if they'd just give him the job--his name is Michael Wuertz.

[TruffleShuffle]

Yeah? And they didn't try closer by committee. They tried to send an injured Joe Borowski out there, because he was "proven", then they sent Hawkins out there until he melted. That's not closer by committee.

 

I'm still pretty pissed off that they stayed with Hawkins even though he just sucked as a closer. That team had one hell of a rotation and Prior was really coming on at the end of the year. Thanks Latroy/Dusty.

 

In 2004 I was at two of the memorable Hawkins's efforts.

 

Eric' Milton's near no-hitter, then near loss after Patterson roped a double. LaTroy loses it in the bottom of the 9th.

The final week in Shea when Victor Diaz went deep.

Both times Prior started the game and pitched very well.

 

Aww man you were there too? I'm pretty sure others on this board were there... CT Cubs fan being one, I believe.

 

I drove up from South Jersey with my dad for the game. It was so disheartening... the Mets sucked and their fans totally didn't care if they won or lost the game. I'd never been to a game at Shea and I really don't want to go to another one.

 

The other thing that sucked was wanting to have some lunch and beer with my dad before the game, and finding out that Shea is surrounded by about 2341 auto body shops and not a single bar or restaurant. WTF is with that?

[goonys evil twin]

The final week in Shea when Victor Diaz went deep.

Both times Prior started the game and pitched very well.

 

Aww man you were there too? I'm pretty sure others on this board were there... CT Cubs fan being one' date=' I believe.

 

I drove up from South Jersey with my dad for the game. It was so disheartening... the Mets sucked and their fans totally didn't care if they won or lost the game. I'd never been to a game at Shea and I really don't want to go to another one.

 

The other thing that sucked was wanting to have some lunch and beer with my dad before the game, and finding out that Shea is surrounded by about 2341 auto body shops and not a single bar or restaurant. WTF is with that?[/quote']

 

CT, thedayman, and myself I believe. Shea is a get-in and get-out stadium. Yankee Stadium is pretty much the same thing, with maybe 2 crap bars in the area. You should have asked, I would have warned you.

 

I sat right near this Mets fan who spent the entire game bitching about the Mets, yelling at the Mets, swearing at the Mets, etc. He was making a total ass of himself. Nonstop top the lungs profanity and ignorance. And he kept talking about how much he spends on Mets tickets and how it was his right. So anyway, come time for the comeback and sure enough, the dude is hootin' and hollerin' and doing his best to try and start a fight with me. And of course, the friend I was there with, a Pirates fan who hates Mets fans, was trying to get me to fight the guy as well.

 

It was a beautiful day, the game was going along fine, and then Dusty brings in Dempster to start the 9th, before yielding to Hawkins. I cannot understand why, if you are willing to use your closer at all, you don't bring him in to start the 9th clean. If he's not available that day, fine, make due with what you've got. Latroy had pitched a few games in a row. But he used him, so either he was unavailable, and Baker used him anyway, or he was available, and Dusty waited far too long to put him in.

[Soul]

The Cubs have a closer if they'd just give him the job--his name is Michael Wuertz.

 

I think he might be good too. Or Wood.

 

I don't think we have a closer 'problem'