Cubs Sign Marquis to 3/21

[macuser2]

This from today's Heckler. :P

[mg420]

Rothschild, who worked with Marquis in Florida this off-season, was instrumental in bringing him to the Cubs. Now it will be up to Rothschild to do what former Atlanta Braves pitching coach Leo Mazzone and St. Louis Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan couldn't—figure out a way to get Marquis to become a consistent big-league pitcher.

 

This whole thing is Larry's idea. I have a whole host of feelings about this, but none of them are suitable for NSBB. :x

 

Wow.

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

I'd sure like to know why Larry would be working with Marquis in the offseason in the first place. That seems weird to me.

 

I thought I read somewhere that Duncan had identified where Marquis was tipping off his pitches, and he wound up throwing his hands up in disgust because Marquis wouldn't work with him to get rid of the "tells."

 

from mlb.com:

 

"Jason called me shortly after they got done with the World Series and asked me if he could come down and throw," Rothschild told WGN Radio on Friday night. "He'd talked to [Greg] Maddux during the season and [Maddux] recommended that if he had a chance to let me see him."

 

"Maddux and Marquis were teammates in Atlanta. Marquis threw once for Rothschild, and the two talked pitching mechanics. "

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061209&content_id=1758640&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

[Soul]

Rothschild, who worked with Marquis in Florida this off-season, was instrumental in bringing him to the Cubs. Now it will be up to Rothschild to do what former Atlanta Braves pitching coach Leo Mazzone and St. Louis Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan couldn't—figure out a way to get Marquis to become a consistent big-league pitcher.

 

This whole thing is Larry's idea. I have a whole host of feelings about this, but none of them are suitable for NSBB. :x

 

Wow.

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

I'd sure like to know why Larry would be working with Marquis in the offseason in the first place. That seems weird to me.

 

I thought I read somewhere that Duncan had identified where Marquis was tipping off his pitches, and he wound up throwing his hands up in disgust because Marquis wouldn't work with him to get rid of the "tells."

 

from mlb.com:

 

"Jason called me shortly after they got done with the World Series and asked me if he could come down and throw," Rothschild told WGN Radio on Friday night. "He'd talked to [Greg] Maddux during the season and [Maddux] recommended that if he had a chance to let me see him."

 

"Maddux and Marquis were teammates in Atlanta. Marquis threw once for Rothschild, and the two talked pitching mechanics. "

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061209&content_id=1758640&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

 

Yeah but doesn't that strike you as strange? Let's say Marquis signs with the Stros, and the pitching help Rothschild provided allows him to go 3-0 against the Cubs.

 

Sounds like a bad practice to be fixing opposing pitchers, doesn't it?

[soapy]

Marquis will wear the number 7¼ to match his 2007 ERA.

Post of the month

[RynoRules]

Rothschild, who worked with Marquis in Florida this off-season, was instrumental in bringing him to the Cubs. Now it will be up to Rothschild to do what former Atlanta Braves pitching coach Leo Mazzone and St. Louis Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan couldn't—figure out a way to get Marquis to become a consistent big-league pitcher.

 

This whole thing is Larry's idea. I have a whole host of feelings about this, but none of them are suitable for NSBB. :x

 

Wow.

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

I'd sure like to know why Larry would be working with Marquis in the offseason in the first place. That seems weird to me.

 

I thought I read somewhere that Duncan had identified where Marquis was tipping off his pitches, and he wound up throwing his hands up in disgust because Marquis wouldn't work with him to get rid of the "tells."

 

from mlb.com:

 

"Jason called me shortly after they got done with the World Series and asked me if he could come down and throw," Rothschild told WGN Radio on Friday night. "He'd talked to [Greg] Maddux during the season and [Maddux] recommended that if he had a chance to let me see him."

 

"Maddux and Marquis were teammates in Atlanta. Marquis threw once for Rothschild, and the two talked pitching mechanics. "

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061209&content_id=1758640&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

 

Yeah but doesn't that strike you as strange? Let's say Marquis signs with the Stros, and the pitching help Rothschild provided allows him to go 3-0 against the Cubs.

 

Sounds like a bad practice to be fixing opposing pitchers, doesn't it?

 

I think these guys do this sort of thing all the time. I do it my profession as well.

[goonys evil twin]

Sounds like a bad practice to be fixing opposing pitchers, doesn't it?

 

I think these guys do this sort of thing all the time. I do it my profession as well.

 

Yeah, I think it's kind of common. Wasn't Prior or Wood working with a Rangers employee at one point? It's like a professional courtesy, which happens in all businesses.

[Soul]

Sounds like a bad practice to be fixing opposing pitchers, doesn't it?

 

I think these guys do this sort of thing all the time. I do it my profession as well.

 

Yeah, I think it's kind of common. Wasn't Prior or Wood working with a Rangers employee at one point? It's like a professional courtesy, which happens in all businesses.

 

Yeah but the Rangers aren't likely to see Prior & Wood have much of an impact on their season, unless it's the WS (unlikely).

 

We're talking within the division here.

[daske17]

Sounds like a bad practice to be fixing opposing pitchers, doesn't it?

 

I think these guys do this sort of thing all the time. I do it my profession as well.

 

Yeah, I think it's kind of common. Wasn't Prior or Wood working with a Rangers employee at one point? It's like a professional courtesy, which happens in all businesses.

 

Yeah but the Rangers aren't likely to see Prior & Wood have much of an impact on their season, unless it's the WS (unlikely).

 

We're talking within the division here.

 

Well, to play devil's advocate then, wouldn't it be to our benefit if Rothchild got an in-depth look at Marquis' mechanics? Just because you pick up on a flaw doesn't mean there aren't others you could exploit as a pitching coach. This would have been a great way to learn how he tips his pitches.

[goonys evil twin]

Sounds like a bad practice to be fixing opposing pitchers, doesn't it?

 

I think these guys do this sort of thing all the time. I do it my profession as well.

 

Yeah, I think it's kind of common. Wasn't Prior or Wood working with a Rangers employee at one point? It's like a professional courtesy, which happens in all businesses.

 

Yeah but the Rangers aren't likely to see Prior & Wood have much of an impact on their season, unless it's the WS (unlikely).

 

We're talking within the division here.

 

Well, to play devil's advocate then, wouldn't it be to our benefit if Rothchild got an in-depth look at Marquis' mechanics? Just because you pick up on a flaw doesn't mean there aren't others you could exploit as a pitching coach. This would have been a great way to learn how he tips his pitches.

 

This is a good point. Plus, Marquis was a free agent, he wasn't within the division. I think it was clear STL was done with him, and while he theoretically could have signed with HOU, he did not. I doubt Larry gave the guy and intense lesson. It sounds like he worked out for him, and Larry just talked with him a little. It's still going to take a lot of actul work to fix whatever flaw Larry thinks he sees.

 

I really don't see a story here, as far as helping the competition.

[NorthsideAvenger]

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

And what makies Duncan and Mazzone so special as PC? Mazzone lived off of Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine for atleast 14 yrs. Outside of those three HOFers, Mazzone was pretty much an average pitching coach. And outside of Carpenter, Duncan hasn't done much in St. Lou. He has had more talented pitchers lost then pitchers he help. I mean Smith, Ankiel, Al. Benes, etc, etc.

 

So again...why are Mazzone and Duncan the end all to all pitching coaches?

[goonys evil twin]

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

And what makies Duncan and Mazzone so special as PC? Mazzone lived off of Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine for atleast 14 yrs. Outside of those three HOFers, Mazzone was pretty much an average pitching coach. And outside of Carpenter, Duncan hasn't done much in St. Lou. He has had more talented pitchers lost then pitchers he help. I mean Smith, Ankiel, Al. Benes, etc, etc.

 

So again...why are Mazzone and Duncan the end all to all pitching coaches?

 

Duncan repeatedly has turned mediocre journeymen into solid pitchers. And Mazzone has been the PC for an enormous number of pitchers' best seasons, including Kevin Millwood, Steve Avery, Kyle Farnsworth, Mark Wohlers, Ligtenberg and a host of other more or less mediocre middle relievers that he got the most out of.

 

Both of their staffs have routinely been better than those of Larry Rothschild.

[NorthsideAvenger]

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

And what makies Duncan and Mazzone so special as PC? Mazzone lived off of Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine for atleast 14 yrs. Outside of those three HOFers, Mazzone was pretty much an average pitching coach. And outside of Carpenter, Duncan hasn't done much in St. Lou. He has had more talented pitchers lost then pitchers he help. I mean Smith, Ankiel, Al. Benes, etc, etc.

 

So again...why are Mazzone and Duncan the end all to all pitching coaches?

 

 

Duncan repeatedly has turned mediocre journeymen into solid pitchers. And Mazzone has been the PC for an enormous number of pitchers' best seasons, including Kevin Millwood, Steve Avery, Kyle Farnsworth, Mark Wohlers, Ligtenberg and a host of other more or less mediocre middle relievers that he got the most out of.

 

Both of their staffs have routinely been better than those of Larry Rothschild.

 

I just don't buy that if "Mazzone and Duncan can't turn the kid around he is useless" theory that seems to be popular on this board. Duncan and Mazzone gets more credit then they deserve to be honest. The Cards for the past 8 yrs have fielded if not the best, one of the best defense in ALL of baseball, and IMO, had the best calling defensive catcher in baseball in Matheny, so I think he had as much influence in developing those pitchers in St. Lou as Duncan. And ATL, I mean come on....they play in a VERY LARGE park, and AJ conitnues to cover ground like a fat man at a buffet.

So I don't buy the Mazzone and Duncan BY THEMSELVES are responsible for the rebirth of several pitchers.

 

Judge the kid by what he does in Chicago, not pre-judge him because of what he did in St. Lou and ATL, is all I asking for. Im not expecting much from Marquis, but atleast I am giving him a clean slate.

[goonys evil twin]

Judge the kid by what he does in Chicago, not pre-judge him because of what he did in St. Lou and ATL, is all I asking for. Im not expecting much from Marquis, but atleast I am giving him a clean sheet.

 

That's absurd.

 

Nobody has a clean sheet. Everybody's past matters. Asking people to not pre-judge a player is asking them to pretend that numbers and statistics don't matter, which is asking them to lie to themselves.

 

If the Cubs signed me to be the SS next year, you would be darn well justified pre-judging me and being pissed that I was the Cubs SS next year. That is because I have not put up the numbers to justify such a role, not because I haven't done so in a Cubs uniform.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

[CubsWin]

The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

Yes.

 

But it is not the only predictor. Some of the posts on how much Marquis sucks are getting rather absolute. Plus, Marquis has had some success in his fairly recent past.

 

That doesn't mean I'm a fan of this signing. I'm not. I'm weary. I feel that going a different direction, I'm not sure which direction exactly at the moment, but not Marquis would have been wiser, certainly for the money involved. I'll feel a lot better about it if all the years aren't guaranteed.

[Soul]

The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

Yes.

 

But it is not the only predictor. Some of the posts on how much Marquis sucks are getting rather absolute. Plus, Marquis has had some success in his fairly recent past.

 

That doesn't mean I'm a fan of this signing. I'm not. I'm weary. I feel that going a different direction, I'm not sure which direction exactly at the moment, but not Marquis would have been wiser, certainly for the money involved. I'll feel a lot better about it if all the years aren't guaranteed.

 

Unfortunately, the ONLY predictor of the future is past performance. I say unfortunately because even the past doesn't always accurately tell us what will happen. Guys sometimes click even though their past stats say they won't. Some guys do exactly what the stats would say they will, and then some take a nose dive for no reason, or outperform their projections, yada yada.

 

Based on Marquis' past, I'm thinking he's going to continue to be real inconsistant. Which would make him a pretty frustrating player to watch and root for. Larry says "I found the key, we can fix him." Well I sure hope so.

[oldcubsfan]

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

And what makies Duncan and Mazzone so special as PC? Mazzone lived off of Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine for atleast 14 yrs. Outside of those three HOFers, Mazzone was pretty much an average pitching coach. And outside of Carpenter, Duncan hasn't done much in St. Lou. He has had more talented pitchers lost then pitchers he help. I mean Smith, Ankiel, Al. Benes, etc, etc.

 

So again...why are Mazzone and Duncan the end all to all pitching coaches?

 

Duncan repeatedly has turned mediocre journeymen into solid pitchers. And Mazzone has been the PC for an enormous number of pitchers' best seasons, including Kevin Millwood, Steve Avery, Kyle Farnsworth, Mark Wohlers, Ligtenberg and a host of other more or less mediocre middle relievers that he got the most out of.

 

Both of their staffs have routinely been better than those of Larry Rothschild.

 

I assume you are aware that the Braves didn't dump him, they traded him for JD Drew.

[sethuel1]

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

And what makies Duncan and Mazzone so special as PC? Mazzone lived off of Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine for atleast 14 yrs. Outside of those three HOFers, Mazzone was pretty much an average pitching coach. And outside of Carpenter, Duncan hasn't done much in St. Lou. He has had more talented pitchers lost then pitchers he help. I mean Smith, Ankiel, Al. Benes, etc, etc.

 

So again...why are Mazzone and Duncan the end all to all pitching coaches?

 

Duncan repeatedly has turned mediocre journeymen into solid pitchers. And Mazzone has been the PC for an enormous number of pitchers' best seasons, including Kevin Millwood, Steve Avery, Kyle Farnsworth, Mark Wohlers, Ligtenberg and a host of other more or less mediocre middle relievers that he got the most out of.

 

Both of their staffs have routinely been better than those of Larry Rothschild.

 

I assume you are aware that the Braves didn't dump him, they traded him for JD Drew.

him and a bunch of crap scrubs that certainly weren;t the really interesting part of the deal.

[NorthsideAvenger]

The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

 

Then according to Chris Carpenter's "past performances",

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carpech01.shtml

 

he would had continue to be a talented, but crappy pitchers.

 

"Past performances" is not the best predictor, because doesn't take into account different variables.

[radarluv1]

 

How big do his cajones have to be to think he can succeed where Duncan and Leo-freakin'-Mazzone failed?

 

And what makies Duncan and Mazzone so special as PC? Mazzone lived off of Smoltz, Maddux, and Glavine for atleast 14 yrs. Outside of those three HOFers, Mazzone was pretty much an average pitching coach. And outside of Carpenter, Duncan hasn't done much in St. Lou. He has had more talented pitchers lost then pitchers he help. I mean Smith, Ankiel, Al. Benes, etc, etc.

 

So again...why are Mazzone and Duncan the end all to all pitching coaches?

 

Duncan repeatedly has turned mediocre journeymen into solid pitchers. And Mazzone has been the PC for an enormous number of pitchers' best seasons, including Kevin Millwood, Steve Avery, Kyle Farnsworth, Mark Wohlers, Ligtenberg and a host of other more or less mediocre middle relievers that he got the most out of.

 

Both of their staffs have routinely been better than those of Larry Rothschild.

 

I assume you are aware that the Braves didn't dump him, they traded him for JD Drew.

him and a bunch of crap scrubs that certainly weren;t the really interesting part of the deal.

i think wainright was a big part of that deal, too.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Judge the kid by what he does in Chicago, not pre-judge him because of what he did in St. Lou and ATL, is all I asking for. Im not expecting much from Marquis, but atleast I am giving him a clean sheet.

 

That's absurd.

 

Nobody has a clean sheet. Everybody's past matters. Asking people to not pre-judge a player is asking them to pretend that numbers and statistics don't matter, which is asking them to lie to themselves.

 

If the Cubs signed me to be the SS next year, you would be darn well justified pre-judging me and being pissed that I was the Cubs SS next year. That is because I have not put up the numbers to justify such a role, not because I haven't done so in a Cubs uniform.

 

Why is it absurd? Just because I disagree with you, gooney? While I do agree that "everybody's past matters", it doesn't mean he is going to repeat his past mistakes. People forget that Marquis was not exactly a favorite of LaRussa, and Tony made sure Jason knew that. I am not saying that stats don't matter, but stats do tend to lie, or even cover up the actual production of said player. So, while I am not going to get into a battle of stats, (because I have a life, and I don't need to go that far to prove my point), but I do know that is to already have a pre-conceive judgement of said player, makes very likely that unless he performs like a "Cy Young" caliber pitcher, people are going to boo Marquis, regardless of production.

 

I'm not saying to ignore the facts, but moving to a new city, means a new opportunity for Marquis, and it is up to Jason to show that he is better then his stats suggest.

[radarluv1]

The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

 

Then according to Chris Carpenter's "past performances",

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carpech01.shtml

 

he would had continue to be a talented, but crappy pitchers.

 

"Past performances" is not the best predictor, because doesn't take into account different variables.

 

i dont understand what you're trying to say here. one could say this is another thrown away pitcher that duncan turned around. he shaved 0.4-0.5 off his whip from toronto. also carp got a rehab Miller/Dempster type contract not 3/28.

[wolf stansson]

i think wainright was a big part of that deal, too.

Wainright, Ray King and Marquis. Good deal for both teams.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

 

Then according to Chris Carpenter's "past performances",

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carpech01.shtml

 

he would had continue to be a talented, but crappy pitchers.

 

"Past performances" is not the best predictor, because doesn't take into account different variables.

 

I said it was the best, not only. Obviously there can be exceptions, and some can probably be found going the other way.

[AramisRamirez]

im not the most knowledgable baseball fan (thats being generous) but generally speaking its very tough to be optomistic about a pitcher with a 6.00+ ERA. ive been told im pressimistic on this board...but any cubs fan who has endured what we've endured and is not bitter is a miracle of human nature.