Garland to Stros for Taveras/Hirsch/Buchholz(Houston Report)

[goonys evil twin]

Can't believe the White Sox were about to trade a guy with 200+ innings and an above-average ERA+ the last three years, for considerably worse starter and a fast outfielder who has no pop and can't get on base enough.

 

I think they'd be pretty wise to deal Garland in this market.

 

They would, but first they'd be wise to actually get something worthwhile in return. Seriously, you've got inferior pitchers like Lilly and Meche getting $10-11M per year contracts on the open market - Garland should fetch a lot. The rumored deal in this thread is an atrocious deal in ANY market, and especially this one.

 

I think Garland is in the same group of inferior pitchers. Maybe a little better than Lilly and Meche, but no better than Suppan.

[tkenm356]

The Astros are reportedly set to acquire Jon Garland from the White Sox, reportedly for Willy Taveras and Taylor Buchholz.

 

Crap. Garland and Oswalt. Carlos Lee. Crap.

 

Garland could get lit up in that park.

 

Garland IS going to get lit up in that park. Jon Garland is the quintessential product of what goes right with great run support. He's not the stud pitcher a lot of people think he is. He's not awful either, but he's not THAT good

[TruffleShuffle]

The Astros are reportedly set to acquire Jon Garland from the White Sox, reportedly for Willy Taveras and Taylor Buchholz.

 

Crap. Garland and Oswalt. Carlos Lee. Crap.

 

Garland could get lit up in that park.

 

Garland IS going to get lit up in that park. Jon Garland is the quintessential product of what goes right with great run support. He's not the stud pitcher a lot of people think he is. He's not awful either, but he's not THAT good

 

i didn't know run support affected ERA+ or WHIP.

[RichHillIsABeast]

OK, we could seriously beat this rumored Astros offer. I'd rather trade prospects for Garland than dish out 4/44M+ for Meche. It's not even a tough decision.

[killthegoat06]

OK, we could seriously beat this rumored Astros offer. I'd rather trade prospects for Garland than dish out 4/44M+ for Meche. It's not even a tough decision.

 

Meche ain't coming.

[RichHillIsABeast]

The Astros are reportedly set to acquire Jon Garland from the White Sox, reportedly for Willy Taveras and Taylor Buchholz.

 

Crap. Garland and Oswalt. Carlos Lee. Crap.

 

Garland could get lit up in that park.

 

Garland IS going to get lit up in that park. Jon Garland is the quintessential product of what goes right with great run support. He's not the stud pitcher a lot of people think he is. He's not awful either, but he's not THAT good

 

i didn't know run support affected ERA+ or WHIP.

 

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

[VanceJergins]

Garland's not that good. He's had 1 full season with an ERA under 4.50, but he could get more than Taveras and Buchholz. I keep hearing that Taveras is a young Podsednik, and he is except for the fact that he has a Pierre-esque walk rate. Usually I'd be happy for the White Sox to make a stupid move, but not when they're sending someone to our division. I hope this falls through. Too bad we already traded Bynum, we could have traded him and Mateo for Garland.

[TruffleShuffle]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

[VanceJergins]

The Astros are reportedly set to acquire Jon Garland from the White Sox, reportedly for Willy Taveras and Taylor Buchholz.

 

Crap. Garland and Oswalt. Carlos Lee. Crap.

 

Garland could get lit up in that park.

 

Garland IS going to get lit up in that park. Jon Garland is the quintessential product of what goes right with great run support. He's not the stud pitcher a lot of people think he is. He's not awful either, but he's not THAT good

 

i didn't know run support affected ERA+ or WHIP.

 

Well, he's only had one year with a good ERA+ and WHIP.

[killthegoat06]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

 

Don't forget Marquis. Meche, Lilly > Marquis. That is, unless we're signing Marquis to be a pinch hitter.

[fromthestretch]

The Astros are reportedly set to acquire Jon Garland from the White Sox, reportedly for Willy Taveras and Taylor Buchholz.

 

Crap. Garland and Oswalt. Carlos Lee. Crap.

 

Garland could get lit up in that park.

 

Garland IS going to get lit up in that park. Jon Garland is the quintessential product of what goes right with great run support. He's not the stud pitcher a lot of people think he is. He's not awful either, but he's not THAT good

 

i didn't know run support affected ERA+ or WHIP.

 

The one thing that Garland has gotten better at the past couple years is not walking people. Outside of that, he's a low-strikeout, sinker-ball pitcher who somehow tends to give up a fair share of homers and quite a few hits. Moving to the NL might help him, but pitching half his games in the Juice Box won't.

 

Edited to Add: Despite the fact that I don't think Garland is all that great, I certainly would have preferred him over Lilly or Meche.

Edited December 7, 2006 by grassbass

[VanceJergins]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

 

Definitely better than Meche, Lilly is debatable.

[cheapseats]

Can't believe the White Sox were about to trade a guy with 200+ innings and an above-average ERA+ the last three years, for considerably worse starter and a fast outfielder who has no pop and can't get on base enough.

 

Wasn't his ERA+ just 95 in 2004?

[BigbadB]

I still think the Sox are collecting prospects to make a run at a big CF.

 

Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells, Rocco Baldelli come to mind.

 

We, here at NSBB, know that Tavares isn't any good, but for some reason, teams like speed in CF and at the top of the order, so having a CF to send along with Gio Gonzalez, Gavin Floyd and Taylor Buchholz might be what will get them what they want.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Rosenthal is reporting the deal could be Taylor Buchholz, Taveras, and Jason Hirch.

 

If that's the case, this moves from bad deal for the Sox to bad deal for the Astros.

[RichHillIsABeast]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

 

You don't determine who makes the playoffs by ERA, k/9, bb/9, and WHIP.

 

It matters when you give up runs. When you strike out guys. When you walk guys. All those stats have a serious problem. They're all averages. You lose a lot of statistical insight using them.

 

Win-Loss records are far from perfect b/c it does depend on run support, but at least it takes time into account.

Edited December 7, 2006 by RichHillIsABeast

[TruffleShuffle]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

 

Definitely better than Meche, Lilly is debatable.

 

OK, so it's debateable that he's better than a pitcher the Cubs just gave $10M (even though he's undoubtedly more consistent and a smaller health risk than Lilly). So again, why would he not be a good addition?

[TruffleShuffle]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

 

You don't determine who makes the playoffs by ERA, k/9, bb/9, and WHIP.

 

It matters when you give up runs. When you strike out guys. When you walk guys. All those stats have a serious problem. They're all averages. You lose a lot of statistical insight using them.

 

my brain just exploded

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The Sox could be collecting prospects for any number of big acquisitions. They may be collecting the pieces for a Tejeda deal or maybe to make a run at Dontrelle.

[RichHillIsABeast]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

 

Definitely better than Meche, Lilly is debatable.

 

OK, so it's debateable that he's better than a pitcher the Cubs just gave $10M (even though he's undoubtedly more consistent and a smaller health risk than Lilly). So again, why would he not be a good addition?

 

I did say that I'd rather have him than Meche. Where has anyone argued that Meche is preferable?

[Flames24Rulz]

The Sox could be collecting prospects for any number of big acquisitions. They may be collecting the pieces for a Tejeda deal or maybe to make a run at Dontrelle.

 

Yeah, that could make sense.

 

Rosenthal reported that the deal is dead and that Sox officials headed back to Chicago this morning.

[VanceJergins]

He just won 17 games with league average ERA. That's what run support does for you.

 

who cares about how many games he won? He's a good pitcher, better than Lilly and better than Meche.

 

Definitely better than Meche, Lilly is debatable.

 

OK, so it's debateable that he's better than a pitcher the Cubs just gave $10M (even though he's undoubtedly more consistent and a smaller health risk than Lilly). So again, why would he not be a good addition?

 

I would like to have him, but I just wouldnt be very excited....like I'm not very excited about Lilly. And Garland will make more than Lilly over the next 2 years.

[TruffleShuffle]

Can't believe the White Sox were about to trade a guy with 200+ innings and an above-average ERA+ the last three years, for considerably worse starter and a fast outfielder who has no pop and can't get on base enough.

 

Wasn't his ERA+ just 95 in 2004?

 

according to baseball reference it was 100/99/100/127/103 in the past five years

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

My guess is that Hirsch was a deal breaker. The Sox likely insisted on him and the Astros wouldn't budge.

[BigbadB]

Rotoworld is now saying that Jason Hirsch is being added to the deal for Garland.

 

Just wow. I hope they do it. Williams will have pulled off another great trade if that happens.

 

Rotoworld is quoting Ken Rosenthal, btw.

Edited December 7, 2006 by BigbadB