Any interest in Hawpe?

[Abe Frohman]

They're talking about trading Hawpe? I'd be all over that, but we already paid an exorbitant amount of money for Soriano to play worse than Hawpe.

 

You think Hawpe's a better player than Soriano?

 

Yes.

 

Wow, I mean Hawpe is a very nice player but I personally dont think he is on Soriano's level. I think it is quite obvious that you dont really like the signing of Soriano, but dont let that cloud your judgment. If you are going the route of production vs. price, then I can see your point, otherwise I would have to disagree. But I would love to hear why you came to that conclusion.

Hawpe in 2006: .293/.383/.515/.898

Soriano in 2006: .277/.351/.560/.911

 

Soriano has only put up Hawpe's OPS once in his career. And Hawpe is 3.5 years younger with just two full major league seasons under his belt.

 

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

[BWcubs21]

They're talking about trading Hawpe? I'd be all over that, but we already paid an exorbitant amount of money for Soriano to play worse than Hawpe.

 

You think Hawpe's a better player than Soriano?

 

Yes.

 

Wow, I mean Hawpe is a very nice player but I personally dont think he is on Soriano's level. I think it is quite obvious that you dont really like the signing of Soriano, but dont let that cloud your judgment. If you are going the route of production vs. price, then I can see your point, otherwise I would have to disagree. But I would love to hear why you came to that conclusion.

Hawpe in 2006: .293/.383/.515/.898

Soriano in 2006: .277/.351/.560/.911

 

Soriano has only put up Hawpe's OPS once in his career. And Hawpe is 3.5 years younger with just two full major league seasons under his belt.

 

Well Hawpe has never put up Soriano's OPS :)

[questionmarkgrace]

well, Hawpe has only put up that ops once. See Joe Charboneau. One year doesn't make the player.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

[nilodnayr]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

I think he was purposefully making himself look ignorant to get a rise out of us.

[jjgman21]

Hawpe in 2006: .293/.383/.515/.898

Soriano in 2006: .277/.351/.560/.911

 

Soriano has only put up Hawpe's OPS once in his career. And Hawpe is 3.5 years younger with just two full major league seasons under his belt.

 

I don't necesarily disagree, but Hawpe has put up a nice 122 OPS+ once. Soriano has put up OPS+ in excess of 128 three times.

 

last year I was Chad Tracy goofy, but his 2006 wised me up a little bit, ya know what I mean?

[jjgman21]

 

I'm displeased with the Soriano signing, and practically speaking I don't think Hendry would go out and get a RF after signing Soriano to play RF. He's too much a "player's guy" and would view that as undercutting his word to Soriano that he would play RF, and probably thinks it a smack in the face to Alfonso that he would be the one changing positions.

 

wasn't Hendry's only promise that he would put Soriano at one position and keep him there?

[wilk]

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

What about OPS or OPS+, Win shares, EqA, WARP... I guess that's enough for starters. Are those not important at all in this case either? Or, how about, what do you think of Hawpe's BABIP? Which statistics ARE important? 15 OBP-BA points and a handful of extra linedrives that fill in for Hawpe? You're exaggerating. Hawpe isn't "better" right now as he's less productive - but you might prefer his contract.

[Mephistopheles]

id be willing to bet that the difference in sorianos obp and hawpes in 2007 is going to be a lot more than fifteen points, but that's just me.

[nilodnayr]

Hawpe in 2006: .293/.383/.515/.898

Soriano in 2006: .277/.351/.560/.911

 

Soriano has only put up Hawpe's OPS once in his career. And Hawpe is 3.5 years younger with just two full major league seasons under his belt.

 

I don't necesarily disagree, but Hawpe has put up a nice 122 OPS+ once. Soriano has put up OPS+ in excess of 128 three times.

 

last year I was Chad Tracy goofy, but his 2006 wised me up a little bit, ya know what I mean?

 

1) The guy has only played one really full year in the majors.

 

2)I'd be willing to bet Hawpe has put up OPS+ >122 5 of his 7 professional years and that Sori hasn't done that in his 10 professional years (including Japan).

[nilodnayr]

 

I'm displeased with the Soriano signing, and practically speaking I don't think Hendry would go out and get a RF after signing Soriano to play RF. He's too much a "player's guy" and would view that as undercutting his word to Soriano that he would play RF, and probably thinks it a smack in the face to Alfonso that he would be the one changing positions.

 

wasn't Hendry's only promise that he would put Soriano at one position and keep him there?

 

That is correct. And although Bruce said that Sori is planned for RF, he did leave it open depending on who they acquire (or don't acquire). So he definitely could end up in CF.

[Abe Frohman]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

You are so right.

[Pinktermite]

I personally think that Soriano is going to improve in ALL statistical categories and that this comparison with Hawpe is a moot one. I have nothing to back this up.

 

Compared to what the Cubs had before, he's going to be a monstrous improvement and addition to a lineup that desperately needed power and speed.

 

But I'll take Hawpe, too. Won't happen, but I'll take him.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

But to be fair, Soriano's speed allows him to take more chances on the basepaths, then most players can't or won't make. Not to mention, all it takes is to be "smarter" on the basepaths to improve in those areas. You can teach players to be "smarter" on the basepaths, but you can't teach speed.

[Fro]

Just get someone who kills lefties to platoon with Jones. I don't see why you'd have to make a trade, as lefty-killer + Jacque = very good, cheap production.

[RynoRules]

Might the Pirates rather have Jones than Hawpe? Maybe?

 

Pirates get Jones.

Rockies get Duke

Cubs get Hawpe.

 

Pirates would be nuts to do that deal.

[Kingmanarama]

If Hawpe didn't sit so often against LHPs, that OPS wouldn't be so impressive:

 

Hawpe career vs. RHP - 921 PA, 30 HR, .284/.372/.473

Hawpe career vs. LHP - 123 PA, 4 HR, .227/.309/.400

 

For comparison's sake:

 

Jones career vs. RHP - 3371 PA, 138 HR, .295/.343/.493

Jones career vs. LHP - 993 PA, 21 HR, .228/.275/.350

 

I'd certainly rather have Hawpe than Jones. I can't imagine prefering Hawpe to Soriano, though, unless you actively root for a low payroll:

 

Hawpe PA, OPS+

2004, age 25 - 118, 72

2005, age 26 - 351, 88

2006, age 27 - 575, 122

 

Soriano PA, OPS+

2001, age 25 - 614, 92

2002, age 26 - 741, 131

2003, age 27 - 734, 128

2004, age 28 - 658, 98

2005, age 29 - 682, 110

2006, age 30 - 728, 132

[Rob]

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

That's the truth.

 

I can't find his baserunning totals for 2006, but his 2005 totals are as follows.

 

EqGAR (Ground Advancement Runs) is -0.08

EqAAR (Air Advancement Runs) is -0.07

EqSBR (Stolen Base Runs) is 4.92

EqHAR (Hit Advancement Runs) is 1.10

 

He's a little below average advancing on outs on the ground or in the air. He was an exceptional basestealer in 2005. And he's worth about an extra run per season when he gets an opportunity to advance on a hit.

 

That was 2005. I don't have the numbers for 2006 handy, but his stolen base rate dropped off significantly (30 SB 2 CS in 2005, 41 SB 17 CS in 2006). That drop brings his SB% to right around the breakeven point. You drop his EqSBR to 0.00, and he's worth approximately one run all season long on the basepaths compared to your league average joe. And that's assuming his sudden loss of a step didn't affect any other aspect of his running game.

 

Obviously, he's probably at stealing bases than he showed in 2006, but for a 30 year old to regain career-year form is something I sincerely doubt will happen. Figure he settles in around 2.50 runs per season for the next few when attempting to steal. Figure he keeps everything else the same.

 

3-4 runs per season after taking all the times he was successful and all the times he failed into consideration, compared to what you'd expect by looking at the rest of the league.

 

3-4 runs isn't insignificant, but I always fume a little bit when people try to tell me Soriano is worth a ton on the basepath. He quite simply is not.

[baseball7897]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

How the hell are RBI and R almost completely worthless?

 

Is VORP, Isod, Ipod, Ihop, PMS better ways to judge a player? :lol:

[Magnetic Curses]

They're talking about trading Hawpe? I'd be all over that, but we already paid an exorbitant amount of money for Soriano to play worse than Hawpe.

 

You think Hawpe's a better player than Soriano?

 

Yes.

 

Wow, I mean Hawpe is a very nice player but I personally dont think he is on Soriano's level. I think it is quite obvious that you dont really like the signing of Soriano, but dont let that cloud your judgment. If you are going the route of production vs. price, then I can see your point, otherwise I would have to disagree. But I would love to hear why you came to that conclusion.

Hawpe in 2006: .293/.383/.515/.898

Soriano in 2006: .277/.351/.560/.911

 

Soriano has only put up Hawpe's OPS once in his career. And Hawpe is 3.5 years younger with just two full major league seasons under his belt.

 

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

those statistics are not all that important.

[Magnetic Curses]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

How the hell are RBI and R almost completely worthless?

 

Is VORP, Isod, Ipod, Ihop, PMS better ways to judge a player? :lol:

 

they're worthless because they are team-contingent.

 

and to anwer your question, it's very likely that one could come up with a stat with the "PMS" acronym that would be more telling. but it wouldn't be from the dead-ball era so you would likely dismiss it.

[baseball7897]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

How the hell are RBI and R almost completely worthless?

 

Is VORP, Isod, Ipod, Ihop, PMS better ways to judge a player? :lol:

 

they're worthless because they are team-contingent.

 

and to anwer your question, it's very likely that one could come up with a stat with the "PMS" acronym that would be more telling. but it wouldn't be from the dead-ball era so you would likely dismiss it.

 

Good one.

[jjgman21]

Hawpe in 2006: .293/.383/.515/.898

Soriano in 2006: .277/.351/.560/.911

 

Soriano has only put up Hawpe's OPS once in his career. And Hawpe is 3.5 years younger with just two full major league seasons under his belt.

 

I don't necesarily disagree, but Hawpe has put up a nice 122 OPS+ once. Soriano has put up OPS+ in excess of 128 three times.

 

last year I was Chad Tracy goofy, but his 2006 wised me up a little bit, ya know what I mean?

 

1) The guy has only played one really full year in the majors.

 

2)I'd be willing to bet Hawpe has put up OPS+ >122 5 of his 7 professional years and that Sori hasn't done that in his 10 professional years (including Japan).

 

1) I have no idea why you are directing this at me. I was merely pointing out that the other posted used what is at best incorrect stats to compare two players and at worst intentionally misleading stats to compare the two players.

 

2) you compounded the problem with misleading facts of your own. 'ten years of professional.' what is that? use an age based basis of comparison at the major league level. I have no problem with that kind of comparison, but to build up your point with a flimsy comparison like you did is ludicrous, misleading, and gets nobody anywhere.

 

Soriano has spent 6 full seasons in the major leagues beginning at age 25. Hawpe has spent 2 full seasons in the major leagues, the first as a platoon and last year as someone who sat alot v. lefties, beginning at age 26. the comparison is what Hawpe will do over the next four years at the major league level.

[Magnetic Curses]

I do think it is really possible that Hawpe is going to bloom into an All-Star player, but you have to look at important statistics like runs scored, RBI, SB, and HR. Hawpe is going to have to really step it up to get on those elite levels that Soriano eclipses on a yearly basis.

 

Those statistics aren't very important at all, especially RBI and R which are almost completely worthless. SB has some value, but Soriano gets himself out on the bases so much that he doesn't exactly provide a ton of value with his baserunning.

 

How the hell are RBI and R almost completely worthless?

 

Is VORP, Isod, Ipod, Ihop, PMS better ways to judge a player? :lol:

 

they're worthless because they are team-contingent.

 

and to anwer your question, it's very likely that one could come up with a stat with the "PMS" acronym that would be more telling. but it wouldn't be from the dead-ball era so you would likely dismiss it.

 

Good one.

 

is that your final answer?

[nilodnayr]

Hawpe in 2006: .293/.383/.515/.898

Soriano in 2006: .277/.351/.560/.911

 

Soriano has only put up Hawpe's OPS once in his career. And Hawpe is 3.5 years younger with just two full major league seasons under his belt.

 

I don't necesarily disagree, but Hawpe has put up a nice 122 OPS+ once. Soriano has put up OPS+ in excess of 128 three times.

 

last year I was Chad Tracy goofy, but his 2006 wised me up a little bit, ya know what I mean?

 

1) The guy has only played one really full year in the majors.

 

2)I'd be willing to bet Hawpe has put up OPS+ >122 5 of his 7 professional years and that Sori hasn't done that in his 10 professional years (including Japan).

 

1) I have no idea why you are directing this at me. I was merely pointing out that the other posted used what is at best incorrect stats to compare two players and at worst intentionally misleading stats to compare the two players.

 

2) you compounded the problem with misleading facts of your own. 'ten years of professional.' what is that? use an age based basis of comparison at the major league level. I have no problem with that kind of comparison, but to build up your point with a flimsy comparison like you did is ludicrous, misleading, and gets nobody anywhere.

 

Soriano has spent 6 full seasons in the major leagues beginning at age 25. Hawpe has spent 2 full seasons in the major leagues, the first as a platoon and last year as someone who sat alot v. lefties, beginning at age 26. the comparison is what Hawpe will do over the next four years at the major league level.

 

It was directed at you because you said Hawpe has put up a 122 OPS+ once in his career...well hell, hes only played one full season, how many good OPS+ ML seasons do you want him to have?!?!?!? And you accuse me of using misleading facts. Pot, meet kettle. If you are going to compare a guy whos been in the league for 6 full years with a guy whos had a cup of coffee, 3/4 of a year, and a full year, you need to look at previous numbers as well. Hawpe produced at nearly every level he has played at. So to say hes put up 122 OPS+ only once is just plain ignorant, as in, you are ignoring his minor league numbers. If you want to compare on an age/level basis, then fine, I'll do that. NOTE: From first year American professional year using stats from level which had majority of ABs.

 

Age:Level:OPS

 

Soriano

23:AA:864

24:AAA:791

25:ML:736

26:ML:879

27:ML:863

28:ML:808

29:ML:821

30:ML:911

 

Hawpe

21:A-:900

22:A:869

23:A+:1034

24:AA:841

25:AAA:1036

26:ML:753

27:ML:898

 

So, if your point is to show that Hawpe's 900 OPS in 2006 is supported much better by his previous body of work (3 previous years of 900 or > OPS) than Soriano's 900 OPS in 2006 (ZERO previous years of 900 or > OPS, then cograts. Sori obviously has the advantage in ML experience, but the name of the game is projecting into the future, and theres nothing in their careers that shows Soriano is going to be soooo much better than Hawpe.