C. Lee to Astros - 6 years/$100 M

[Banedon]

My concern now is that Drew's going to be probably looking for a similar if not better contract.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

also, wasn't soriano playing second base in 2005? that would make it kind of hard to compare their vorp's for that year since they are no longer playing different positions.

 

Correct.

[Shilzzz]

My concern now is that Drew's going to be probably looking for a similar if not better contract.

 

meh. drew isn't coming here anyway.

[RynoRules]

For approximately the same average annual value, the Cubs got the better of this deal with Soriano, instead of CLee.

 

I guess that's obvious. Duh.

 

Well the difference is, of course, that we'll have Soriano for 2 years more than the Astros will have C Lee. If they both produce like this for 4 more years, well then the Astros only have 2 decline years to deal with, while we have 4. Of course, if we can win a World Series in those productive years, I'll manage to get over it.

 

I should also think that Soriano's skills will decline less steeply, if only b/c he appears to keep himself in better shape than Lee.

 

However, conversely, Soriano depends on speed for his game, which obviously declines with age, whereas Lee does not.

 

I don't get this at all. you just posted a point that the two players are similar, making no reference to speed whatsoever. now the point of speed comes up and Soriano's game is based on speed?

 

was Soriano's speed relevant in the 46 times he could have walked around the bases last year?

 

Yeah, what does his running game have to do with the fact that he hits for power? He's not Pierre for the love of G-d.

[A New Era]

For approximately the same average annual value, the Cubs got the better of this deal with Soriano, instead of CLee.

 

I guess that's obvious. Duh.

 

Well the difference is, of course, that we'll have Soriano for 2 years more than the Astros will have C Lee. If they both produce like this for 4 more years, well then the Astros only have 2 decline years to deal with, while we have 4. Of course, if we can win a World Series in those productive years, I'll manage to get over it.

 

I should also think that Soriano's skills will decline less steeply, if only b/c he appears to keep himself in better shape than Lee.

 

However, conversely, Soriano depends on speed for his game, which obviously declines with age, whereas Lee does not.

 

I don't get this at all. you just posted a point that the two players are similar, making no reference to speed whatsoever. now the point of speed comes up and Soriano's game is based on speed?

 

was Soriano's speed relevant in the 46 times he could have walked around the bases last year?

 

Yeah, what does his running game have to do with the fact that he hits for power? He's not Pierre for the love of G-d.

 

All things said, it's still nice to have that speed threat on the bases on the one spot. You've upgraded lead-of from Pierre to a guy who hits alot of home runs and has great slugging for those many times men will be on base in front of him, yet still offers that speed threat.

[Mephistopheles]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

[Sarcastic]

also, wasn't soriano playing second base in 2005? that would make it kind of hard to compare their vorp's for that year since they are no longer playing different positions.

 

Correct.

This is actually exactly why Soriano is more valuable than Lee; he can put up similar offensive numbers at more defensive positions like 2B or CF. That's why it was so baffling to me that they wanted to move him to RF. He really has a lot less value there, though I guess in the future they may be able to move him.

[jjgman21]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

I just don't get why those who subscribe to the new way of baseball thinking have such a hard time conveying their message.

 

 

 

wait...yes I do.

[Mephistopheles]

well IF the cubs view Jones as a better defensive CF he should certainly be there. Once you say that the three OF positions are going to be filled by Murton, Soriano and Jones you have to move them where they are the best, regardless of their value.

 

This is sort of what Billy Beane did when he let Tejada go. Value wise Tejada was probably a better bet than Eric Chavez. But he had a capable SS coming up in Bobby Crosby and went to the assumptin that Crosby would slide over to third if he kept Tejada. Once he knew that SS and 3B would be filled no matter what he had to choose the better bat since it was really all that it came down to, and at the time Eric Chavez was the better bat.

 

There are other things (like a 3B being cheaper than a SS), but it's really a similar thing here.

[Mephistopheles]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

I just don't get why those who subscribe to the new way of baseball thinking have such a hard time conveying their message.

 

 

 

wait...yes I do.

Yes, because personal insults is the way to get YOUR point across.

[Shavo]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

 

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense! :roll:

[Soriano12]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

I just don't get why those who subscribe to the new way of baseball thinking have such a hard time conveying their message.

 

 

 

wait...yes I do.

 

:lol: :lol:

[Careless]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

 

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense! :roll:

That's as silly a response as "Because when Soriano strikes out, it's really helping out offense! :roll: "

Neither of these statements have anything to do with what he posted. try harder.

[jjgman21]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

 

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense! :roll:

 

the problem is the caught stealings. the theory goes that if you do not have a 75-80% success rate you are hurting your teams chances at scoring due to making outs after reaching base as opposed to helping your team by getting into scoring position.

[BWcubs21]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

 

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense! :roll:

 

the problem is the caught stealings. the theory goes that if you do not have a 75-80% success rate you are hurting your teams chances at scoring due to making outs after reaching base as opposed to helping your team by getting into scoring position.

 

That is true, but look at his ratio the last 4 years. He has been somewhere around the 75% mark 3 of those years. Granted last year he had a terrible success rate, but its been said that he was really pressing trying to get to 40/40.

[Mephistopheles]

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense!

 

But him stealing a bag isn't going to make up for him getting caught. The Cubs are and still are going to be a team who are out-[expletive]. They'll get them in bunches and REALLY need to conserve them. On the averages, a SB is worth .195 runs and a caught stealing is worth -.456 runs. Plug in his stuff last season and his stolen bases netted a whole .24 runs. Throw on top of that the Cubs higher than league average run environment (which makes each CS hurt them more and each SB help them less) and all of a sudden you have a guy whose running hurts us. And we decided to pay for it.

 

That is true, but look at his ratio the last 4 years. He has been somewhere around the 75% mark 3 of those years. Granted last year he had a terrible success rate, but its been said that he was really pressing trying to get to 40/40.

 

As SBA goes up, SB% goes down usually. So again, choose your spots and it's a useful tool, but to pay big bucks for it is just stupid. Speed + Power = expensive. It's better to buy them seperately, that is by the power guy to play the position. Then buy the speed guy for your bench (and you can find a lot of them like say Joey Gathright or even Angel Pagan for that matter). The only time a SB is a useful tool is late in a close game after oh the 7th inning give or take, so there's no need to waste money on a tool that is useless most of the time.

Edited November 25, 2006 by Mephistopheles

[Shavo]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

 

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense! :roll:

That's as silly a response as "Because when Soriano strikes out, it's really helping out offense! :roll: "

Neither of these statements have anything to do with what he posted. try harder.

 

What?

[Shavo]

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense!

 

But him stealing a bag isn't going to make up for him getting caught. The Cubs are and still are going to be a team who are out-[expletive]. They'll get them in bunches and REALLY need to conserve them. On the averages, a SB is worth .195 runs and a caught stealing is worth -.456 runs. Plug in his stuff last season and his stolen bases netted a whole .24 runs. Throw on top of that the Cubs higher than league average run environment (which makes each CS hurt them more and each SB help them less) and all of a sudden you have a guy whose running hurts us. And we decided to pay for it.

 

I understand, but saying Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense is crazy. When he does steal a bag it will help, and when he is able to, say, get from first to third on a single, it will help too. Sure when he is caught stealing it will hurt, but in reality it will help alot more then it will hurt.

 

Would you rather Soriano have no speed or somthing?

[A New Era]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

I just don't get why those who subscribe to the new way of baseball thinking have such a hard time conveying their message.

 

 

 

wait...yes I do.

Yes, because personal insults is the way to get YOUR point across.

 

No offense. But your first response to me could be viewed as a tongue in cheek "mockery" insult. And I think that's his point, if not his it's mine. No need to insult people who do not feel the way you do, ok?

[A New Era]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

 

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense! :roll:

That's as silly a response as "Because when Soriano strikes out, it's really helping out offense! :roll: "

Neither of these statements have anything to do with what he posted. try harder.

 

He obviously didn't understand what I meant by that. I subscribe to the feeling having a nagging threat on the bases clogs a pitchers mind. If you or he do not agree with that, please don't mock with your holier than though attitute and talk to posters like they are dumb just because they beleive something other than what you THINK you know is true.

[Sarcastic]

Because when Soriano steals a bag, it's really hurting our offense!

 

But him stealing a bag isn't going to make up for him getting caught. The Cubs are and still are going to be a team who are out-[expletive]. They'll get them in bunches and REALLY need to conserve them. On the averages, a SB is worth .195 runs and a caught stealing is worth -.456 runs. Plug in his stuff last season and his stolen bases netted a whole .24 runs. Throw on top of that the Cubs higher than league average run environment (which makes each CS hurt them more and each SB help them less) and all of a sudden you have a guy whose running hurts us. And we decided to pay for it.

 

That is true, but look at his ratio the last 4 years. He has been somewhere around the 75% mark 3 of those years. Granted last year he had a terrible success rate, but its been said that he was really pressing trying to get to 40/40.

 

As SBA goes up, SB% goes down usually. So again, choose your spots and it's a useful tool, but to pay big bucks for it is just stupid. Speed + Power = expensive. It's better to buy them seperately, that is by the power guy to play the position. Then buy the speed guy for your bench (and you can find a lot of them like say Joey Gathright or even Angel Pagan for that matter). The only time a SB is a useful tool is late in a close game after oh the 7th inning give or take, so there's no need to waste money on a tool that is useless most of the time.

 

I disagree with the idea that Soriano's base running is going to hurt the Cubs. Over his career, he has stolen 210 bases, and been caught 60 times, yielding a decent 77.8% success rate. In the three years prior to last year, he had SB% of 93.8%, 78.3%, and 81.4%. I'd say that if the coaches reign him in (don't give him the green light every time he gets on base) his speed should be a somewhat valuable tool. Even if he is allowed to steal at will and racks up the CS, it will only cost the team a few runs at most, which is a small amount in comparison to the improvement in overall production he will represent compared to Pierre.

 

Of course, his speed isn't his real value. To say the Cubs signed him because he is fast, or that that is his only or primary skill is untrue. His real value, and one that is definitely worth paying for, is his ability to slug from traditionally defensive positions. That is why he is getting the largest contract this offseason, not his speed. Further, I'd say his speed doesn't make much of a difference as to whether or not his signing was good.

[jjgman21]

yay we got a speed threat who can't walk and gets thrown out an additional 20 or so time on the bases because of that speed. Man what a threat!

 

Soriano's speed is only a threat to our offense. Not to the opposing teams.

 

I just don't get why those who subscribe to the new way of baseball thinking have such a hard time conveying their message.

 

 

 

wait...yes I do.

Yes, because personal insults is the way to get YOUR point across.

 

No offense. But your first response to me could be viewed as a tongue in cheek "mockery" insult. And I think that's his point, if not his it's mine. No need to insult people who do not feel the way you do, ok?

 

nevermind that my comment was in no way, shape, or form a personal insult.

[Mephistopheles]

yeah his real value is that he gets out a lot, ohh that just makes me all giddy inside!

[Sarcastic]

yeah his real value is that he gets out a lot, ohh that just makes me all giddy inside!

 

I don't get this. If we are just going to throw around thoughtless insults that have no bearing on the discussion, let's just not post. I think this thread has enough pointless sarcasm by now.

[treebird]

yeah his real value is that he gets out a lot, ohh that just makes me all giddy inside!

 

I don't get this. If we are just going to throw around thoughtless insults that have no bearing on the discussion, let's just not post. I think this thread has enough pointless sarcasm by now.

 

lol i get it the sarcasm guy doesnt like sarcasm

 

brilliant