Sheffield to Tigers

[NewUserName]

I think Detroit is either going to resign Casey or move Guillen to first. I think the Cubs ought to really explore Marcus Thames as a platoon partner for Jones. I know he struggled in the 2nd half but heck we need some first half hitters anyway.

 

As for the Trade the Tigers have cooled on Sanchez since mid-summer. He was an untouchable at the deadline. I am thinking the injury may be worse than they are letting on.

[TruffleShuffle]

Maybe I'm just an idiot, but possibly the Cubs looks to offer something like Zambrano (and a second, relatively minor player) for ARod and Sanchez?

 

Then you would be creating another hole on the team.

 

Not if they're determined to pick up at least 2 other starting pitchers. It all hinges on what else Hendry can get done. And Sanchez seems pretty good.

 

That deal doesnt make sense. You dont trade a staff ace. Their determined to pick up at least 2 other starting pitchers? Who are these guys that are better than Zambrano?

 

Who said better than Zambrano? STL won after letting their past ace, Morris, leave. The Yankees went on an ace acquiring binge in the 2000s and didn't win the WS. Florida got rid of their best pitchers and are poised to be better than the Cubs for a while. Oakland has won despite ace type pitchers leaving.

 

It's never good to get rid of a great pitcher. But it's all about the net gain. If you can turn that 1 great pitcher into 1 great position player and 2 good pitchers, you are probably better off.

 

Who are the good pitchers? If you're talking about someone like Sanchez, he hasn't thrown a pitch in the majors yet. If you're talking about two free agents, then that's a whole lot of money being spent along with bringing in a $25 million player.

 

Your argument for not needing an ace is terribly flawed. The Marlins got rid of their best pitchers and are poised to be better than the Cubs for a while? The Marlins had their best pitchers and won a World Series. Oakland has won despite those pitchers leaving? Oakland has won with them, too. The Yankees won with guys like Clemens, Pettitte, Cone and El Duque. Their pursuit of an ace hasn't been their problem - it's that they keep signing one-year wonders like Jaret Wright or Carl Pavano, or over-the-hill vets like Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown. Those guys aren't aces, they're wannabe aces and former aces.

 

The Red Sox signed Curt Schilling to go along with Pedro Martinez and Derek Lowe in 2004. Result? Won the World Series. Lowe and Pedro left after that year, and Schilling has probably not recovered from the injury he pitched through during the playoffs in '04. The Red Sox haven't come close to achieving the same success that they had in '04.

 

And Matt Morris? Come on. His ERA+ his last two years in St Louis was 89 and 104. The year before he left St. Louis, he was the second worst starter on their staff, not exactly an ace. And, this year without this "ace" the Cards won 15 fewer games during the regular season.

 

Meanwhile, Zambrano's ERA+ has been over 130 for the past four years. Putting him and Zambrano together is just a horrendous comparison.

[wade]

Detroit Free Press

 

No money coming from the Yankees, and the two year extension is for 28 million. That's a lot of money, but I guess Dombrowskit went that direction to commit for three years instead of 5 or 6, like the best free agent bats will want.

 

Also, the article says Sheffield will not play first, which surprises me. I guess Casey will get an offer from Detroit. As stated earlier, Guillen could slide to first and Detroit could use all glove no bat guys like, you guessed it, Neifi at short instead.

 

Detroit filled about the only hole they had- a middle of the order hitter- but I think they are paying a lot for it.

[Backtobanks]

Sheffield is a great hitter and run producer, but coming off of a wrist injury at 38 years old and signing him to a 2-year extension beyond this year could be a dangerous proposition.

[TruffleShuffle]

tigers, you are dumb

[USSoccer]

Wow. What a stupid trade.

[BigbadB]

The Tigers are dumb?

 

Granted, I wouldn't want Sheffield given the circumstances for acquiring him, but Detroit gambled with Maggs and Pudge and came out alright.

 

They can probably trade Monroe and/or Thames for some pitching help, resign Casey and be sitting pretty offensively next year. Meanwhile, the Cubs are on the verge of losing one of their main offensive threats.

 

Who's dumb?

[E.J.]

The Tigers are dumb?

 

Granted, I wouldn't want Sheffield given the circumstances for acquiring him, but Detroit gambled with Maggs and Pudge and came out alright.

 

They can probably trade Monroe and/or Thames for some pitching help, resign Casey and be sitting pretty offensively next year. Meanwhile, the Cubs are on the verge of losing one of their main offensive threats.

 

Who's dumb?

 

Trading for a 38-year-old slugger with a big mouth who's also known to have been on steroids (trading one of your top prospects in the deal), and then signing him to a 2-year extension should probably be considered as dumb.

[USSoccer]

The Tigers are dumb?

 

Granted, I wouldn't want Sheffield given the circumstances for acquiring him, but Detroit gambled with Maggs and Pudge and came out alright.

 

They can probably trade Monroe and/or Thames for some pitching help, resign Casey and be sitting pretty offensively next year. Meanwhile, the Cubs are on the verge of losing one of their main offensive threats.

 

Who's dumb?

 

Maggs and Pudge were both younger than Sheffield is. Sheffield is a giant risk for next year, let alone 2008.

 

Also, no one said the Cubs weren't dumb. :D

[CUBZ99]

The Tigers are dumb?

 

Granted, I wouldn't want Sheffield given the circumstances for acquiring him, but Detroit gambled with Maggs and Pudge and came out alright.

 

They can probably trade Monroe and/or Thames for some pitching help, resign Casey and be sitting pretty offensively next year. Meanwhile, the Cubs are on the verge of losing one of their main offensive threats.

 

Who's dumb?

 

Trading for a 38-year-old slugger with a big mouth who's also known to have been on steroids (trading one of your top prospects in the deal), and then signing him to a 2-year extension should probably be considered as dumb.

 

Isn't it sad that as fans of one of the worst teams in the last 100 years, we are calling another team's trade dumb. Especially considering it is a team that just went to the World Series. The one thing about the Tigers is that they are not afraid to take a risk and get the players they want.

 

They took risks on Maggs, Pudge and the Gambler and those turned out okay for them. I'm also not sure how much more pitching they are going to need next year. So why not trade from a position that you are overloaded with and get something you need? This move tells me that they are trying to win the World Series next year. Not a bad objective.

[BigbadB]

When a team has a pitching staff that finished first in the league in ERA that features:

 

Jeremy Bonderman (23)

Justin Verlander (23)

Zach Miner (24)

Jordan Tata (24)

Joel Zumaya (21)

Andrew Miller (21)

Nate Robertson (28)

 

and still doesn't include their most notable signing, Kyle Sleeth....

 

and they trade a guy, who might not even be able to pitch better than what's already on the major league roster, for an offensive weapon, which was one of the team's weaknesses this year, I wouldn't say it's dumb.

 

The Tigers traded from a position of strength to strengthen a weakness. Definitely a gamble, but if it helps them finish above Cleveland, Minnesota and Chicago in the NL Central again next year, it will have been worth it.

[E.J.]

The Tigers are dumb?

 

Granted, I wouldn't want Sheffield given the circumstances for acquiring him, but Detroit gambled with Maggs and Pudge and came out alright.

 

They can probably trade Monroe and/or Thames for some pitching help, resign Casey and be sitting pretty offensively next year. Meanwhile, the Cubs are on the verge of losing one of their main offensive threats.

 

Who's dumb?

 

Trading for a 38-year-old slugger with a big mouth who's also known to have been on steroids (trading one of your top prospects in the deal), and then signing him to a 2-year extension should probably be considered as dumb.

 

Isn't it sad that as fans of one of the worst teams in the last 100 years, we are calling another team's trade dumb. Especially considering it is a team that just went to the World Series. The one thing about the Tigers is that they are not afraid to take a risk and get the players they want.

 

They took risks on Maggs, Pudge and the Gambler and those turned out okay for them. I'm also not sure how much more pitching they are going to need next year. So why not trade from a position that you are overloaded with and get something you need? This move tells me that they are trying to win the World Series next year. Not a bad objective.

 

I really don't have a problem with them trading for Sheffield. The part that I find dumb is them signing him to a 2-year extension. Shef is 38 with a history of injury problems. The Tigers will now have him for 3 years.

[CUBZ99]

The Tigers are dumb?

 

Granted, I wouldn't want Sheffield given the circumstances for acquiring him, but Detroit gambled with Maggs and Pudge and came out alright.

 

They can probably trade Monroe and/or Thames for some pitching help, resign Casey and be sitting pretty offensively next year. Meanwhile, the Cubs are on the verge of losing one of their main offensive threats.

 

Who's dumb?

 

Trading for a 38-year-old slugger with a big mouth who's also known to have been on steroids (trading one of your top prospects in the deal), and then signing him to a 2-year extension should probably be considered as dumb.

 

Isn't it sad that as fans of one of the worst teams in the last 100 years, we are calling another team's trade dumb. Especially considering it is a team that just went to the World Series. The one thing about the Tigers is that they are not afraid to take a risk and get the players they want.

 

They took risks on Maggs, Pudge and the Gambler and those turned out okay for them. I'm also not sure how much more pitching they are going to need next year. So why not trade from a position that you are overloaded with and get something you need? This move tells me that they are trying to win the World Series next year. Not a bad objective.

 

I really don't have a problem with them trading for Sheffield. The part that I find dumb is them signing him to a 2-year extension. Shef is 38 with a history of injury problems. The Tigers will now have him for 3 years.

 

It is a risky move for them, but being in the AL at least they can move him to DH in a year of two if they have to. It will be interesting to see how much his numbers decline (if at all) over the next three years.

[wade]

I wonder if the Tigers have an opt-out due to injury. I think in the case of both Maggs and Pudge they tried to cover their huge financial outlays with out clauses for knee and back respectively.

 

They're still paying a ton if they have an out, but it would make more sense.

 

Like BBB said, they're taking a risk but they improved their main weakness by trading away from an area of surplus.

 

The money involved tells me they're looking to cash in on this window of about the next three years with studly young pitching on the cheap. By the time Verlander, Maroth, Zumaya, Robertson, Miller, Miner, et al become expensive if they are/ remain successful, Maggs, Pudge, and Shef will come off the books.

[Pinktermite]

This signing of Sheff to an extension was obviously risky, but these are the chances and gambles that good teams know they have to make to better the odds for getting over the top.

 

The Cubs could learn from the Tigers here...gambling involves risk. That's why I threw out the idea of Pie for Willis, and other minor leaguers obviously. It was just an idea, but if they don't do something miraculous to change the paradigm that the Cubs are losers forever, then history is doomed to repeat itself.

[BigbadB]

The Tigers also gambled on Maggs (16m+ in 2006) and Pudge (10m+ in 2006) and an argument could be made that neither provided the production worthy of their salary. However, would the Tigers have been in the World Series in 2006 without those two players?

 

Maggs was interested in playing for the Cubs the year Detroit signed him. He was definitely a huge risk. Probably more of a risk than Sheffield is right now. A lot of people screamed that Pudge's contract with the Tigers was just crazy. At that time, many believed Pudge was a broken down former shell of himself. He's caught an amazingly high number of innings over his career, which made him a big risk as well, though maybe not as risky as Sheffield.

 

The Cubs were unwilling to take that risk, and a mediocre team got worse rather than better.

[TruffleShuffle]

Granted, I wouldn't want Sheffield given the circumstances for acquiring him, but Detroit gambled with Maggs and Pudge and came out alright.

 

The gambles with Maggs and Pudge involved signing players who were 30 and 31, respectively - not 38. They didn't suffer a major injury affecting their ability to swing their bat. And most importantly, they didn't give anything up to get those guys.

 

They can probably trade Monroe and/or Thames for some pitching help, resign Casey and be sitting pretty offensively next year.

 

Resign Casey? So that they have a below-average hitter as their first baseman or DH?

[BigbadB]

And that's why those deals are considered gambles.....

 

They're also looking at Aubrey Huff, Nomar and Shea Hillenbrand at 1b. I think they'll be fine at 1b with all the pop they have at other positions.

[BigbadB]

The gambles with Maggs and Pudge involved signing players who were 30 and 31, respectively - not 38. They didn't suffer a major injury affecting their ability to swing their bat. And most importantly, they didn't give anything up to get those guys.

 

And the aforementioned gambles helped them do what?

 

Meanwhile, Tiger fans can ask Cub fans how the view from the bottom is.

 

I sure wish our GM had the audacity to go out and get the players necessary to at least threaten to win a division.

[CubColtPacer]

The gambles with Maggs and Pudge involved signing players who were 30 and 31, respectively - not 38. They didn't suffer a major injury affecting their ability to swing their bat. And most importantly, they didn't give anything up to get those guys.

 

And the aforementioned gambles helped them do what?

 

Meanwhile, Tiger fans can ask Cub fans how the view from the bottom is.

 

I sure wish our GM had the audacity to go out and get the players necessary to at least threaten to win a division.

 

A gamble like Maggs? I don't know-but I do know that Ordonez was not much different from Jacque Jones last year (Magglio was 16 points better in OBP, Jacque was 24 points better in SLG), and Ordonez was worse the year before with the Tigers. He's not exactly giving great production-that gamble hasn't panned out for them. He's just an average player the last two years who hasn't hurt them on their way to the WS.

[BigbadB]

He's just an average player the last two years who hasn't hurt them on their way to the WS.

 

Exactly. I mentioned it above. He hasn't lived up to his salary. Possibly not Pudge, either. But, are Detroit Tigers fans running around griping that Maggs isn't worth the money, or are they excited about being in the World Series and getting even more excited watching Detroit make moves that might help them get there again next year?

[TruffleShuffle]

The gambles with Maggs and Pudge involved signing players who were 30 and 31, respectively - not 38. They didn't suffer a major injury affecting their ability to swing their bat. And most importantly, they didn't give anything up to get those guys.

 

And the aforementioned gambles helped them do what?

 

Meanwhile, Tiger fans can ask Cub fans how the view from the bottom is.

 

I sure wish our GM had the audacity to go out and get the players necessary to at least threaten to win a division.

 

They were GOOD gambles. Giving up talent for a guy like Sheffield and ensuring that he'll be around until he's 41 or 42 is not a great idea.

[CubColtPacer]

He's just an average player the last two years who hasn't hurt them on their way to the WS.

 

Exactly. I mentioned it above. He hasn't lived up to his salary. Possibly not Pudge, either. But, are Detroit Tigers fans running around griping that Maggs isn't worth the money, or are they excited about being in the World Series and getting even more excited watching Detroit make moves that might help them get there again next year?

 

Detroit was able to make the gambles because they had some young talent they could build around. Do we? I don't know-maybe.

 

I'd love to go out and sign some impact free agents though-it seems like the plan is to make sure the future is flexible all the time, and so the future never becomes the present. So I agree with you, but the gambles might just make us even worse for the next few years-but I'll take the chance of being in worse shape just for the chance to be better.

[Backtobanks]

With earlier rumors of the Tigers trading Bonderman, I'm surprized the Yanks didn't try for Bonderman rather than prospects.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Bonderman might still be traded, but there was no way the Yankees would have gotten him for Sheffield.

 

I've seen on some Reds message boards a Bonderman for Dunn proposal.