How did it come to this?

[goonys evil twin]

There isn't one way to win baseball games, but it's pretty freaking difficult without pitching. There's no way the Mets make the playoffs without Pedro, Glavine, and Hernandez. There's no way the Cards make the playoffs without Carpenter.

 

The Cards have a below average pitching staff. And Carpenter is barely better than Zambrano. If the Cards can go to the NLCS with mediocre pitching, which they have, then it doesn't seem to be all that freaking difficult.

 

I'm not advocating mediocre pitching. I'm advocating not being foolish enough to think it's all about pitching and the Cubs have to go out and get nothing but pitchers.

[goonys evil twin]

Both pitching and offense (well, OBP and SLG) are expensive, but we should be able to field both on a 100M payroll? Are you serious? We'd be hard pressed to do one now that Z's cheap years are long gone.

 

You'd have to work really hard to not get good pitching and hitting out of $100 million. Just because Hendry has done it, doesn't mean everybody can.

 

I don't understand how anybody can look at the financial situation in baseball, and advocate that the Cubs skimp on one side of the ball in an effort to emulate some smaller market teams that had to.

 

 

Do you really think Beane would settle on mediocre offense if he had $100+ million to spend?

[RichHillIsABeast]

I'm sick and freaking tired of everybody pretending baseball is pitching only. Cy Young pitchers regularly go out and look like crap in the playoffs, rookies and mediocre pitchers have stellar games.

 

Pitching is the most expensive thing in the game. The Cubs spent the last 12 years trying to build a team around pitching and virtually ignoring the offense. It's a poor plan. You have to do your best to field the best pitching and hitting possible. A $100m payroll is more than enough to have a top 5 hitting and top 5 pitching team, and if you throw in another $10-15m, you should be top 3 in each, which is exactly what the Mets did.

 

Where did I ever say baseball is pitching only? It's tough to win with good pitching and no run support (look at Clemens last year).

 

Baseball is about scoring more runs than you give up. There are many ways to to that. You can limit runs scored with defense and pitching. You can score more with offense.

 

No, it's not a poor plan. A *healthy* rotation of Z/Wood/Prior (barring freak injuries to Prior and Wood imploding) gets us to the playoffs every year...with a middling offense. With a solid offense and defense (which would have been there considering amount those 3 were making) that team is one of the best in baseball.

 

Pitching isn't expensive when you develop it yourself, like we did. It really frees you up to pursue that elite offensive/defensive team, especially since those players are moved much more often via trade/FA than elite pitchers are.

 

* We need to develop position prospects too, but unfortunately, we're inapable of finding and deveoping the likes of Reyes, Wright, and Jeter.

[goonys evil twin]

No, it's not a poor plan. A *healthy* rotation of Z/Wood/Prior (barring freak injuries to Prior and Wood imploding) gets us to the playoffs every year...with a middling offense. With a solid offense and defense (which would have been there considering amount those 3 were making) that team is one of the best in baseball.

 

Pitching isn't expensive when you develop it yourself, like we did. It really frees you up to pursue that elite offensive/defensive team, especially since those players are moved much more often via trade/FA than elite pitchers are.

 

* We need to develop position prospects too, but unfortunately, we're inapable of finding and deveoping the likes of Reyes, Wright, and Jeter.

 

It is a poor plan because the odds of developing a staff of great and healthy pitchers are slim. The Cubs tried to emulate the Braves, forgetting that what the Braves did was unprecedented, and that they developed hitters. The Cubs were free to pursue elite offensive players, and they chose not to.

 

It's not smart to think you are going to develop a rotation of 3 healthy aces from within your organization.

 

You can't contentrate that much on pitching and ignore offense as much as the Cubs have.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Both pitching and offense (well, OBP and SLG) are expensive, but we should be able to field both on a 100M payroll? Are you serious? We'd be hard pressed to do one now that Z's cheap years are long gone.

 

You'd have to work really hard to not get good pitching and hitting out of $100 million. Just because Hendry has done it, doesn't mean everybody can.

 

I don't understand how anybody can look at the financial situation in baseball, and advocate that the Cubs skimp on one side of the ball in an effort to emulate some smaller market teams that had to.

 

 

Do you really think Beane would settle on mediocre offense if he had $100+ million to spend?

 

Beane also knows the most important thing is to develop your own talent. He wouldn't be able to do anything without a farm system consistently producing ML talent (or ML talent via trade). It helps when you have guys making the league minimum producing at average or above average levels.

 

It's not how much you spend, it's how you spend it.

 

You want to go out and buy a team via FA and trades? Your 100M isn't going to amount to squat. You'll be loaded with bad contracts for older players. If something goes wrong along the way (injuries, slumps, etc), you just blew something more important than money - time. Each year, the dollar doesn't go as far in baseball.

 

I never advocated the Cubs "skimp" on one side of the ball.

 

Simply buying a team like you advocate won't work consistently, if at all.

[NewUserName]

Hendry has had his share of good deals and bad deals. I also don't think it's fair to evaluate a trade in hindsight.

 

Unfortunately, the good deals are far removed and replaced by bad deals.

 

Deals should really be replaced by "decisions". Whether those decisions be trades, free agent signings, retaining Baker all year, waiting too long to make deadline deals, etc... there really wasn't much to get excited about in 2006.

 

Signing Rusch, Neifi and Blanco to ridiculous sized contracts for their production was amazingly stupid.

 

Putting all of his eggs in Rafael Furcal's basket was pretty stupid.

 

Kicking Nomar to the curb without looking back was pretty stupid.

 

Trading 3 pitching prospects for a 1 year rental, speed demon was stupid.

 

Waiting too long to fill the biggest hole in the offense (RF) and having to settle for the best off the scrap heap was stupid.

 

Not firing Dusty after the 2005 season was dumb. Not firing him sometime during the season was ridiculously stupid.

 

It goes back to the 2005 season, but agreeing to allow Wood to pitch out of the pen in a season that was lost to about 99% of the viewership and retarding his chances of being healthy in 2006 was stupid.

 

Maybe I overvalue some players, but I felt that they could have gotten much more in return at the trade deadline than they actually did. Maddux, Walker, Jacque Jones, Juan Pierre to name a few guys that I felt could have garnered some interest from other teams.

 

I penciled them in to finish closer to the bottom of the division than towards the top at the beginning of the season. The writing was on the wall. ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE offseason by Hendry.

 

 

 

This is all about right on. I also like that you pointed out about missed opportunities at this years trade deadline. Also to find out we may have gotten a good prospect from the Dodgers but we held out for Iszturis.

 

The Cubs also had a Top Ten minor league system when he took over and now have a bottom 10.

Edited October 19, 2006 by NewUserName

[CuseCubFan69]

I am no Jim Hendry supporter, but I think that, if Derrek Lee had not gotten hurt, the team would have been merely below average, as opposed to worthy-of-historical-note bad.

 

Hendry was also put in a bad spot with respect to Prior and Wood. Wood has been using up >10% of the payroll and not producing anything. One can criticize signing him to that deal in the first place, but the fact of the matter is that that was not a completely indefensible move. Prior is Prior.

 

Other than bad luck, spreading money around on mediocre and bad players instead of investing in top talent is what hurt Hendry the most.

 

If you have Juan Pierre, Todd Walker, Jerry Hairston, Jacque Jones, and Neifi Perez instead of Carlos Beltran, of course you're going to be in a particularly bad way when your superstar first baseman gets hurt.

 

The beauty part to is that Baker is gone and the Cubs won't lose their top pick. It's a step back to hopefully go many steps foward, let's hope Hendry has learned his lesson.

[RichHillIsABeast]

No, it's not a poor plan. A *healthy* rotation of Z/Wood/Prior (barring freak injuries to Prior and Wood imploding) gets us to the playoffs every year...with a middling offense. With a solid offense and defense (which would have been there considering amount those 3 were making) that team is one of the best in baseball.

 

Pitching isn't expensive when you develop it yourself, like we did. It really frees you up to pursue that elite offensive/defensive team, especially since those players are moved much more often via trade/FA than elite pitchers are.

 

* We need to develop position prospects too, but unfortunately, we're inapable of finding and deveoping the likes of Reyes, Wright, and Jeter.

 

It is a poor plan because the odds of developing a staff of great and healthy pitchers are slim. The Cubs tried to emulate the Braves, forgetting that what the Braves did was unprecedented, and that they developed hitters. The Cubs were free to pursue elite offensive players, and they chose not to.

 

It's not smart to think you are going to develop a rotation of 3 healthy aces from within your organization.

 

You can't contentrate that much on pitching and ignore offense as much as the Cubs have.

 

Hindsight is great, isn't it?

 

The only guy with health issues going into 2003 was Wood. There was no reason to believe Prior or Z would have health issues.

 

We were looking at the best 1-3 in baseball, with two guys making the league min and becoming arbi eligible. Wood's contract isn't even that bad, especially if he was healthy.

 

With those 3 pitchers, we could have filled out the rotation easily with a veteran innings eater and developed a young guy in the 5 spot while easily making the playoffs, assuming the offense wasn't atrocious. That's a lot of money to spend on offense.

 

You seem like the stereotypical second guesser to me. It can't be fun being that negative.

[RichHillIsABeast]

It is a poor plan because the odds of developing a staff of great and healthy pitchers are slim. The Cubs tried to emulate the Braves, forgetting that what the Braves did was unprecedented, and that they developed hitters. The Cubs were free to pursue elite offensive players, and they chose not to.

 

It's not smart to think you are going to develop a rotation of 3 healthy aces from within your organization.

 

You can't contentrate that much on pitching and ignore offense as much as the Cubs have.

 

I don't think the Cubs ignored offense so much as they just weren't able to develop any on their own like the Braves.

 

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

What elite offensive players did you want at the time for the amount they got?

 

We didn't think we were going to develop 3 healthy aces from our system. They just dropped in our lap b/c of our poor records (high draft picks) other than Z. It's not likely we'll have that happen again. 2 isn't out of the question, especially if we keep Z (who's obviously not making the league min anymore).

 

But that's what we were dealt at the time and we understandably went from there. What would you have done with a rotation of Prior/Z/Wood going into 2004? Traded one for an elite bat? Come on.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

And as the person responsible for that department, Hendry deserves and receives the blame for its failures.

[CubinNY]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

Holy smokes. If that isn't the biggest cop-out BS remark I've ever read in reference to Hendry and his performance then I don't know what is. It sounds like something that would come out of this Administration regarding the war in Iraq.

 

Even with all this supposed talent and close to 100 million dollar payroll the Cubs made they playoffs once. And never managed to win 90 games. This year they almost lost 100.

 

The Cubs have done nothing but go backwards since Hendry was given the job of GM

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

And as the person responsible for that department, Hendry deserves and receives the blame for its failures.

 

Yes, I realize that's how we think about things in America. Unfortunately, that mentality doesn't fix the problem many times. It takes time to identify problems in the lower reaches of the organization. Simply replacing the heads of departments just ensures that doesn't get fixed.

 

Blaming Hendry for a problem that wasn't of his making and he hadn't had time to fix (or maybe even identify) is silly.

 

It doesn't matter who's to blame. What matters is that the problem is fixed.

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

Holy smokes. If that isn't the biggest cop-out BS remark I've ever read in reference to Hendry and his performance then I don't know what is. It sounds like something that would come out of this Administration regarding the war in Iraq.

 

Even with all this supposed talent and close to 100 million dollar payroll the Cubs made they playoffs once. And never managed to win 90 games. This year they almost lost 100.

 

The Cubs have done nothing but go backwards since Hendry was given the job of GM

 

Read my above post. I explained my remark there.

[CubinNY]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

Holy smokes. If that isn't the biggest cop-out BS remark I've ever read in reference to Hendry and his performance then I don't know what is. It sounds like something that would come out of this Administration regarding the war in Iraq.

 

Even with all this supposed talent and close to 100 million dollar payroll the Cubs made they playoffs once. And never managed to win 90 games. This year they almost lost 100.

 

The Cubs have done nothing but go backwards since Hendry was given the job of GM

 

Read my above post. I explained my remark there.

 

Hendry is the problem. It was painfully obvious that changes needed to be made by the all-star break but Hendry didn't make them.

 

It was obvious that the Cubs needed some run producers in this line-up and he didn't get them.

 

Those are just two of the myriad examples of Hendry's incompetence.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

And as the person responsible for that department, Hendry deserves and receives the blame for its failures.

 

Yes, I realize that's how we think about things in America. Unfortunately, that mentality doesn't fix the problem many times. It takes time to identify problems in the lower reaches of the organization. Simply replacing the heads of departments just ensures that doesn't get fixed.

 

Blaming Hendry for a problem that wasn't of his making and he hadn't had time to fix (or maybe even identify) is silly.

 

It doesn't matter who's to blame. What matters is that the problem is fixed.

 

I'm sorry, maybe I assumed something you didn't know. Hendry was the one that was the head of scouting and development before he became GM. It was most certainly his problem.

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

Holy smokes. If that isn't the biggest cop-out BS remark I've ever read in reference to Hendry and his performance then I don't know what is. It sounds like something that would come out of this Administration regarding the war in Iraq.

 

Even with all this supposed talent and close to 100 million dollar payroll the Cubs made they playoffs once. And never managed to win 90 games. This year they almost lost 100.

 

The Cubs have done nothing but go backwards since Hendry was given the job of GM

 

Read my above post. I explained my remark there.

 

Hendry is the problem. It was painfully obvious that changes needed to be made by the all-star break but Hendry didn't make them.

 

It was obvious that the Cubs needed some run producers in this line-up and he didn't get them.

 

Those are just two of the myriad examples of Hendry's incompetence.

 

Painfully obvious? Yeah, we needed 3 starting pitchers and an offense. That's a little ridiculous to come up with mid-season.

 

Hendry called it a season right after the ASB. He re-assigned his scouts right about that time.

 

This team wasn't going to make the playoffs with Soriano and Zito on it after the ASB. It's ok to admit it.

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

And as the person responsible for that department, Hendry deserves and receives the blame for its failures.

 

Yes, I realize that's how we think about things in America. Unfortunately, that mentality doesn't fix the problem many times. It takes time to identify problems in the lower reaches of the organization. Simply replacing the heads of departments just ensures that doesn't get fixed.

 

Blaming Hendry for a problem that wasn't of his making and he hadn't had time to fix (or maybe even identify) is silly.

 

It doesn't matter who's to blame. What matters is that the problem is fixed.

 

I'm sorry, maybe I assumed something you didn't know. Hendry was the one that was the head of scouting and development before he became GM. It was most certainly his problem.

 

Yes, I did know that.

 

I was debating where the blame falls in an organization. If you keep blaming the leaders and have a high rate of turnover (like we're doing), you're not giving your leaders time to identify and fix the problems lower in the organization before being re-assigned/let go/whatever.

[CubinNY]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

Holy smokes. If that isn't the biggest cop-out BS remark I've ever read in reference to Hendry and his performance then I don't know what is. It sounds like something that would come out of this Administration regarding the war in Iraq.

 

Even with all this supposed talent and close to 100 million dollar payroll the Cubs made they playoffs once. And never managed to win 90 games. This year they almost lost 100.

 

The Cubs have done nothing but go backwards since Hendry was given the job of GM

 

Read my above post. I explained my remark there.

 

Hendry is the problem. It was painfully obvious that changes needed to be made by the all-star break but Hendry didn't make them.

 

It was obvious that the Cubs needed some run producers in this line-up and he didn't get them.

 

Those are just two of the myriad examples of Hendry's incompetence.

 

Painfully obvious? Yeah, we needed 3 starting pitchers and an offense. That's a little ridiculous to come up with mid-season.

 

Hendry called it a season right after the ASB. He re-assigned his scouts right about that time.

 

This team wasn't going to make the playoffs with Soriano and Zito on it after the ASB. It's ok to admit it.

 

I'm talking about firing Dusty. And it is not just this year.

 

Why do you insist on being obtuse in regard to Hendry?

 

He is terrible and has been since he took over the job. Instead of firing him they gave him an extension. Then MacPhail leaves. I don't know if he's taking responisbility or not? But the last thing he should have done was fire Hendry on his way out. He and Andy created this mess.

[goonys evil twin]

You seem like the stereotypical second guesser to me. It can't be fun being that negative.

 

You seem like somebody who likes to come to conclusions without much evidence. I've followed the Hendry era very closely. I was strongly against the whole "we're going to be the Braves" thing long ago. I advocated many many years ago a much stronger effort be placed on developing hitters. I was all about the farm system long before it became par for the course to be all about the farm system. But you cannot simply build around young pitching, because it is the single most unstable thing in all of baseball. Young pitchers drop like flies, and pitchers in general are not the most consistent bunch. I'm all about having young pitching. But building through the farm system does not mean you can't spend $100+ million on good pitching and good hitting today. I don't see what you seem to be advocating. You talk about the need for developing with young players, but then you also talk about not going with a Zambrano + rookies rotation. What are you looking for?

 

There's no reason why the Cubs can't continue to build from within, while at the same time spending to build with players from outside the organization and contending today. 10 years ago, a guy like Jacque Jones would have been your 2nd best position player, now we have 3 hitters who are much better, plus a young player that is just as good and probably soon to be better. This isn't a hapless bunch where you'd be better off dumping everything and building for 5 years down the road. This is a team that can contend, with the right moves, now. They can be a 95 win team, and still keep building up the farm system.

 

They can, and should, get as many good hitters and pitchers as they can. They should not sacrifice hitting for pitching because of some cliche about great pitching.

[RichHillIsABeast]

That's not a GM's fault. That's player development and the scouting department not getting it done.

 

Guess who was head of player development and scouting right before Hendry took over as GM?

 

He's a delegator. It's the guys on the ground that aren't doing their jobs.

 

Holy smokes. If that isn't the biggest cop-out BS remark I've ever read in reference to Hendry and his performance then I don't know what is. It sounds like something that would come out of this Administration regarding the war in Iraq.

 

Even with all this supposed talent and close to 100 million dollar payroll the Cubs made they playoffs once. And never managed to win 90 games. This year they almost lost 100.

 

The Cubs have done nothing but go backwards since Hendry was given the job of GM

 

Read my above post. I explained my remark there.

 

Hendry is the problem. It was painfully obvious that changes needed to be made by the all-star break but Hendry didn't make them.

 

It was obvious that the Cubs needed some run producers in this line-up and he didn't get them.

 

Those are just two of the myriad examples of Hendry's incompetence.

 

Painfully obvious? Yeah, we needed 3 starting pitchers and an offense. That's a little ridiculous to come up with mid-season.

 

Hendry called it a season right after the ASB. He re-assigned his scouts right about that time.

 

This team wasn't going to make the playoffs with Soriano and Zito on it after the ASB. It's ok to admit it.

 

I'm talking about firing Dusty. And it is not just this year.

 

Why do you insist on being obtuse in regard to Hendry?

 

He is terrible and has been since he took over the job. Instead of firing him they gave him an extension. Then MacPhail leaves. I don't know if he's taking responisbility or not? But the last thing he should have done was fire Hendry on his way out. He and Andy created this mess.

 

Hendry hasn't been great, but there's a lot more going on than just Hendry making the wrong moves. MacPhail was a big part of Hendry's turn to the conservative. Early on Hendry was making great moves frequently. Then Andy reined him in. In some ways maybe that was a good thing, but it really curbs Hendry's skills. Hendry is a gunslinger. I think we'll see that again, especially with a lot of free payroll and holes to fill.

 

Hendry has been terrible since getting the job? OMG. If you're not even going to be the slightest bit objective on this subject, go ahead.

 

Lee, Aramis, Nomar, and Hill were all terrible decisions/acquisitions! Fire Hendry now!

[goonys evil twin]

Painfully obvious? Yeah, we needed 3 starting pitchers and an offense. That's a little ridiculous to come up with mid-season.

 

Hendry called it a season right after the ASB. He re-assigned his scouts right about that time.

 

This team wasn't going to make the playoffs with Soriano and Zito on it after the ASB. It's ok to admit it.

 

You think this is a 2006 thing? This problem has been around for a long time.

[goonys evil twin]

Yes, I did know that.

 

I was debating where the blame falls in an organization. If you keep blaming the leaders and have a high rate of turnover (like we're doing), you're not giving your leaders time to identify and fix the problems lower in the organization before being re-assigned/let go/whatever.

 

High rate of turnover? Andy and Hendry were in charge for 12 years. How the hell can you possibly claim the problem is with the high rate of turnover in leaders when the two most prominent leaders were in place for 12 years.

[goonys evil twin]

Hendry hasn't been great, but there's a lot more going on than just Hendry making the wrong moves. MacPhail was a big part of Hendry's turn to the conservative. Early on Hendry was making great moves frequently. Then Andy reined him in. In some ways maybe that was a good thing, but it really curbs Hendry's skills. Hendry is a gunslinger. I think we'll see that again, especially with a lot of free payroll and holes to fill.

 

Hendry has been terrible since getting the job? OMG. If you're not even going to be the slightest bit objective on this subject, go ahead.

 

Lee, Aramis, Nomar, and Hill were all terrible decisions/acquisitions! Fire Hendry now!

 

Gunslinger? The guy has shied away from every possible big time acquisition, except for when teams were desperate to unload and NOBODY else was buying. Yes, fire him now. Better yet, fire him following 2005. You don't judge a GM based on a couple moves. You base it on the big picture. Hendry's signature is all over this organization. He helped bring them from pathetic to halfway decent, but they've reverted to bad very quickly under his watch. He hasn't been all bad, but he's been mostly bad. And in this business, mostly bad means you aren't going the job right.