Negatives of hiring Brenly as manager?

[hawkeyecub]

List any honest criticisms/complaints/drawbacks of Brenly's managerial style or negatives on him becoming our manager.

 

More and more I'm thinking he's the best choice in this realistic pool of candidates. He's not perfect, but no one we're looking at hiring is. He has (surprisingly) impressed me a little bit over the last two years with his analysis. He has a good knowledge of everyone after seeing this team everyday for two years and he always seemed fair with his personnel and talent analysis.

 

He would occupy some middle ground between the no accountability/lax atmosphere with Dusty and some fiery, nutty redass general or control freak. I think his style and attitude would be a good fit.

 

He won 92, 98, 84 games in his 3 full seasons in AZ and was fired during that awful '04 season where they had nothing. His pythagorean W/L was identical to their actual record over those 3 years for whatever that's worth.

[ToupeeOnFire]

I made some of the same points over in Transactions. I think he would strike a good balance between player manager and disciplinarian. And while there are probably things he'll do that will frustrate you, I don't think he is stubbornly old-school like Piniella would be. Plus, I think he is well aware of the Cubs problems of not getting people on base and walking too many batters on the pitching end.

 

He is not my ideal candidate. To me, Davey Johnson, Larry Dierker, maybe even Terry Francona would be more attractive choices. But of the realistic options, he is probably first on my list, unless someone can convince me of the virtues of Joe Girardi.

 

One caveat though, I do worry about his loyalty to veterans over younger, more productive players. He fiddled around with a washed up Mark Grace for far too long when he had younger and better options. I'm not sure if that is a pattern with Brenly, but it does give one pause.

[Soriano12]

List any honest criticisms/complaints/drawbacks of Brenly's managerial style or negatives on him becoming our manager.

 

*****

was fired during that awful '04 season where they had nothing.

 

You just answered your own question there.

 

He can win, when he has talent. Alot of managers can do that.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

How many can win without talent?

[Soriano12]

How many can win without talent?

 

I'd throw the name out Girardi out there but unfortunetly I'm the

only one on the board who thinks Joe deserves credit for fostering the development of the young players down there, and bringing out their "talents"

 

 

So IMO, there are managers that can bring out the best in players.

Joe is one.

 

Brenly I see as a guy who needs established talented vets to succeed.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

How many can win without talent?

 

I'd throw the name out Girardi out there but unfortunetly I'm the

only one on the board who thinks Joe deserves credit for fostering the development of the young players down there, and bringing out their "talents"

 

 

So IMO, there are managers that can bring out the best in players.

Joe is one.

 

Brenly I see as a guy who needs established talented vets to succeed.

 

Did Girardi really win without talent? His team was still below .500. They had a nice run, and surely out-performed expectations, but they didn't exactly win.

 

So, if winning without talent is the criteria here, let's throw out Girardi, because while he exceeded expectations, he didn't exactly win.

[Soriano12]

Winning is a relative term in todays National League

[RichHillIsABeast]

How many can win without talent?

 

I'd throw the name out Girardi out there but unfortunetly I'm the

only one on the board who thinks Joe deserves credit for fostering the development of the young players down there, and bringing out their "talents"

 

 

So IMO, there are managers that can bring out the best in players.

Joe is one.

 

Brenly I see as a guy who needs established talented vets to succeed.

 

Did Girardi really win without talent? His team was still below .500. They had a nice run, and surely out-performed expectations, but they didn't exactly win.

 

So, if winning without talent is the criteria here, let's throw out Girardi, because while he exceeded expectations, he didn't exactly win.

 

For the payroll, it ranks as one of the winningest seasons in modern baseball. It's ridiculously tough to win with that small of a payroll.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Just because Giradi had a very young team that wasn't paid a lot doesn't mean he didn't have talent. And he had a losing record.

[Drew Doughty]

those were all prospects on the verge of being major league ready. Probably the best prospect (at least in my opinion) in Hermida was mediocre for the most part and they were still fine.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Just because Giradi had a very young team that wasn't paid a lot doesn't mean he didn't have talent. And he had a losing record.

 

The Marlins had the fourth most wins in the last 10 years with the smallest payroll...and two of those teams had higher payrolls than the Marlins.

 

1996 Expos $15.4M 88

2001 Twins $24.1M 85

1997 Pirates $9.0M 79

2006 Marlins $15.0M 78

 

 

Info courtesy of ESPN. :wink:

 

 

What the Marlins did was amazing. But...THEY HAD A LOSING RECORD!!!

[dalgreen]

How many can win without talent?

 

I'd throw the name out Girardi out there but unfortunetly I'm the

only one on the board who thinks Joe deserves credit for fostering the development of the young players down there, and bringing out their "talents"

 

 

So IMO, there are managers that can bring out the best in players.

Joe is one.

 

Brenly I see as a guy who needs established talented vets to succeed.

 

That's the difference between the Cubs and some other teams. The Marlins have young guy who others see as "not ready" and they are, while we have guys who are ready and not. The Marlins did have talent, but for some reason I bet had Girardi never worn a Cub uniform many, many wouldn't even want him as manager.

[dalgreen]

List any honest criticisms/complaints/drawbacks of Brenly's managerial style or negatives on him becoming our manager.

 

More and more I'm thinking he's the best choice in this realistic pool of candidates. He's not perfect, but no one we're looking at hiring is. He has (surprisingly) impressed me a little bit over the last two years with his analysis. He has a good knowledge of everyone after seeing this team everyday for two years and he always seemed fair with his personnel and talent analysis.

 

He would occupy some middle ground between the no accountability/lax atmosphere with Dusty and some fiery, nutty redass general or control freak. I think his style and attitude would be a good fit.

 

He won 92, 98, 84 games in his 3 full seasons in AZ and was fired during that awful '04 season where they had nothing. His pythagorean W/L was identical to their actual record over those 3 years for whatever that's worth.

 

It's not that long ago when he was a manager and I don't recall many Cub fans thinking of him as a good manager. He loves veterans and plays old school ball. But then again, I'm one of the few who blames the players we have/get more than the manager. Once again, I'll remind everyone of the 2001 NLDS game 5 when the D'backs were playing the Cardinals. Game 5 in Phoenix, the D'backs have runners on at first and third with one out in a tie game bottom of ninth. Brenly calls for a suicide squeeze with Tony Womack at the plate. Womack bunts through it and leaves the runner out to dry. Runner on first advances to second on the rundown. Womack saves Brenly by getting a two-out hit. Had they not won that game, Brenly would've been called the manager who made the dumbest decision in the history of baseball.

[hawkeyecub]

List any honest criticisms/complaints/drawbacks of Brenly's managerial style or negatives on him becoming our manager.

 

*****

was fired during that awful '04 season where they had nothing.

 

You just answered your own question there.

 

He can win, when he has talent. Alot of managers can do that.

 

You can't be serious. First of all there are no managers that can win without talent and if you think there are, give me an example. The Marlins had plenty of talent this year, at least enough to flirt with .500 in a horrible National League. Just because most of those guys haven't hit their big arbitration years doesn't mean they don't have talent.

 

Here was his pitching rotation in '04: Randy Johnson, Brandon Webb, Casey Fossum (6.65 ERA), Steve Sparks (6.04 ERA), Casey Daigle (7.16 ERA), Edgar Gonzalez (9.32 ERA). Shea Hillenbrand was their qualified OPS leader at .812.

 

That team was awful. Their only decent position players missed huge chunks of the season. Pointing to that as a reason why he shouldn't be manager is ridiculous.

[hawkeyecub]

List any honest criticisms/complaints/drawbacks of Brenly's managerial style or negatives on him becoming our manager.

 

More and more I'm thinking he's the best choice in this realistic pool of candidates. He's not perfect, but no one we're looking at hiring is. He has (surprisingly) impressed me a little bit over the last two years with his analysis. He has a good knowledge of everyone after seeing this team everyday for two years and he always seemed fair with his personnel and talent analysis.

 

He would occupy some middle ground between the no accountability/lax atmosphere with Dusty and some fiery, nutty redass general or control freak. I think his style and attitude would be a good fit.

 

He won 92, 98, 84 games in his 3 full seasons in AZ and was fired during that awful '04 season where they had nothing. His pythagorean W/L was identical to their actual record over those 3 years for whatever that's worth.

 

It's not that long ago when he was a manager and I don't recall many Cub fans thinking of him as a good manager. He loves veterans and plays old school ball. But then again, I'm one of the few who blames the players we have/get more than the manager. Once again, I'll remind everyone of the 2001 NLDS game 5 when the D'backs were playing the Cardinals. Game 5 in Phoenix, the D'backs have runners on at first and third with one out in a tie game bottom of ninth. Brenly calls for a suicide squeeze with Tony Womack at the plate. Womack bunts through it and leaves the runner out to dry. Runner on first advances to second on the rundown. Womack saves Brenly by getting a two-out hit. Had they not won that game, Brenly would've been called the manager who made the dumbest decision in the history of baseball.

 

Yeah I didn't necessarily think of him as a particularly good manager at that time either. I didn't get that impression that he really had a strong preference for veterans while he was a broadcaster, but who knows.

 

I'm sure he does love old school ball, but I think you pretty much have to concede that when you look at the pool of realistic candidates.

I forgot about the Womack play. You're right, that was brutal.

[Fro]

We could definitely do a lot worse. I think Brenly would at least get the guys playing fundamental baseball and he seems to at least recognize that you ought to play high OBP guys in the first couple spots in the lineup, walks are better than outs when batting, and that just because a guy is a lefty pitcher, it doesn't mean he's automatically good at getting lefties out.

[sherwood921]

How many can win without talent?

 

I'd throw the name out Girardi out there but unfortunetly I'm the

only one on the board who thinks Joe deserves credit for fostering the development of the young players down there, and bringing out their "talents"

 

 

So IMO, there are managers that can bring out the best in players.

Joe is one.

 

Brenly I see as a guy who needs established talented vets to succeed.

 

You keep trying to take the stance that Girardi was able to get the most out of a bunch of rookies who were very talented, but Brenly only can win with a good team of veterans. If that's the case, which type of team do you see the Cubs fielding in the future? One with a bunch of rookies, or one assembled to win? I don't see this team starting from scratch any time soon.

[Soriano12]

If that's the case, which type of team do you see the Cubs fielding in the future? One with a bunch of rookies, or one assembled to win?

 

Can't the two co-exist.

A nice blend of young player and veterans.

The Twins have a nice model.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Winning is a relative term in todays National League

 

If the NL is as bad as you say, then his below 500 record is more of an indictment against him.

 

Considering he lost more than he won, I don't see how he has in anyway earned the term a winning manager.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If that's the case, which type of team do you see the Cubs fielding in the future? One with a bunch of rookies, or one assembled to win?

 

Can't the two co-exist.

A nice blend of young player and veterans.

The Twins have a nice model.

 

The Twins have a superior farm system.

[rynefan]

I don't know who would be best, who could? But what I do know is that Brenly just spent two years watching them EVERY DAY, and that's gotta account for something. I bet he has really good insight on the team, what works and what doesn't. His learning curve would be much less as far as the Cub aspect of things and the top brass, etc. He's kind of managed from the sidelines for two years now, in a way. If he saw them play every day for the last two years and STILL wants the job... I say we give it to him!

[Soriano12]

Brenly just spent two years watching them EVERY DAY, and that's gotta account for something.

 

Alcoholism........... Drug addiction?