[Banedon]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

[Bruno7481]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

 

Well, this day in age I think his production was just fine for only 5 M/year.

[Banedon]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

 

Well, this day in age I think his production was just fine for only 5 M/year.

 

But that's THIS YEAR! Forget this year. In the last year of his deal, will he perform well enough for his salary? That's the argument.

[Bruno7481]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

 

Well, this day in age I think his production was just fine for only 5 M/year.

 

But that's THIS YEAR! Forget this year. In the last year of his deal, will he perform well enough for his salary? That's the argument.

 

Ok, I hear you, but you can only go by what he has done so far.

 

Nobody know what he will do in year 3, its kind of pointless to argue that right now. You can only discuss what he has done so far, which was a pretty good year.

[Banedon]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

 

Well, this day in age I think his production was just fine for only 5 M/year.

 

But that's THIS YEAR! Forget this year. In the last year of his deal, will he perform well enough for his salary? That's the argument.

 

Ok, I hear you, but you can only go by what he has done so far.

 

Nobody know what he will do in year 3, its kind of pointless to argue that right now. You can only discuss what he has done so far, which was a pretty good year.

 

Fine, but saying that 'most of the board' was wrong like was said in the earlier quote is..well...wrong. The opinion that was expressed about Jacque had little to do with his performance this year.

[Careless]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

 

Well, this day in age I think his production was just fine for only 5 M/year.

 

But that's THIS YEAR! Forget this year. In the last year of his deal, will he perform well enough for his salary? That's the argument.

 

Ok, I hear you, but you can only go by what he has done so far.

 

Nobody know what he will do in year 3, its kind of pointless to argue that right now. You can only discuss what he has done so far, which was a pretty good year.

Let's sign him to a 40 year $6 billion contract

What, you don't know how he'll do, he hasn't done it yet.

edit: oh, and yay, I guess.

[CubColtPacer]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

 

Well, this day in age I think his production was just fine for only 5 M/year.

 

But that's THIS YEAR! Forget this year. In the last year of his deal, will he perform well enough for his salary? That's the argument.

 

Ok, I hear you, but you can only go by what he has done so far.

 

Nobody know what he will do in year 3, its kind of pointless to argue that right now. You can only discuss what he has done so far, which was a pretty good year.

Let's sign him to a 40 year $6 billion contract

What, you don't know how he'll do, he hasn't done it yet.

edit: oh, and yay, I guess.

 

All he's saying is that so far, it's been a good contract. Through one year, he has done better than comparable value for his position. Taking out all the right fielders who have not hit free agency yet (obviously, they are getting better bang for their buck) here are the qualified RF's this season:

(Salaries all from ESPN-I know Jacque's is about 1 mil off, so others may be a little off as well, but for the sake of time I'm using their numbers)

 

1-Jermaine Dye, 5 million, 1.006 OPS

2. Vladimir Guerrero, 13.5 million, .934

3. J.D. Drew, 11.4 million, .891

4. Bobby Abreu, 13.6 million, .886

5. Jacque Jones, 4.033 million, .833

6. Magglio Ordonez, 16.2 million, .827

7. Geoff Jenkins, 7.83 million, .791

8. Ichiro Suzuki, 12.5 million, .786

9. Shawn Green, 10.2 million, .776

10. Brian Giles, 7.67 million, .771

11. Juan Encarnacion, 3.5 million, .760

12. Jay Payton, 4 million, .743

13. Randy Winn, 5 million, .721

 

Jacque has performed much better than his contract so far compared to the rest of the league at the position right now. Will he have worse numbers? Maybe-but if his production is at market value next year and below it the year after that, then it will be an average signing. This year, he gave greater than market value-and with the right platoon partner, the pair should hopefully give greater than market value for the next 2 years as well.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The fact that Jacque Jones had a career year and it's still being debated whether he's worth the money should tell you all you need to know about the contract.

[CubColtPacer]

The fact that Jacque Jones had a career year and it's still being debated whether he's worth the money should tell you all you need to know about the contract.

 

How would you rank the players as far as production for the money this year out of 13 I have listed above?

[Bruno7481]

Having a marketing guy as President is great! We don't need a "baseball guy" a.k.a. someone who thinks OBP is a "fantasy baseball geek stat."

 

 

MacPhail was one of the key guys keeping the hardcore scouting system alive in the Cubs org. Now he's gone.

 

There aren't a lot of SABR guys ready to step in as Pres. GM's make the baseball decisions anyway, but presidents get to pick the GMs. Once Hendry fails, we may be seeing a new approach.

 

Businessmen aren't opposed to statistics. :wink:

 

I was just thinking there was some room for hope in that regard. He has been with the organization for a long time, though, so hard to say if opinions have already been calcified.

 

At the risk of being a contrarian, I think the Cubs have been excellent at times in player evaluation. They traded Choi, Bobby Hill, and Brendan Harris while acquiring DLee, Aram, and Murton. Unlike most of this board, the Cubs were on target about Jacque's abilities.

 

The problem isn't scouting, it's not relying on stats as well as scouting. Finding a platoon partner for Jacque, batting high OBP guys #1 and #2, etc. The management team needs balance, not a complete overhaul.

 

*sigh*...the problem with Jones, for the millionth time, wasn't that people thought he wouldn't perform well this season. It was that we didn't think he was obtained at a good price, and for a reasonable length of time. If he maintains this same level of play for 3 years, then maybe you'll have a point.

 

Well, this day in age I think his production was just fine for only 5 M/year.

 

But that's THIS YEAR! Forget this year. In the last year of his deal, will he perform well enough for his salary? That's the argument.

 

Ok, I hear you, but you can only go by what he has done so far.

 

Nobody know what he will do in year 3, its kind of pointless to argue that right now. You can only discuss what he has done so far, which was a pretty good year.

Let's sign him to a 40 year $6 billion contract

What, you don't know how he'll do, he hasn't done it yet.

edit: oh, and yay, I guess.

 

Huh?

 

Only point i was making is that Jacque was just fine this year based on his salary. But instead of acknowledging that fact, most are quick to point out that he has two more years left on the deal. There is more factual evidence (at this point in time) to support this deal being a decent one as opposed to a bad one.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The fact that Jacque Jones had a career year and it's still being debated whether he's worth the money should tell you all you need to know about the contract.

 

How would you rank the players as far as production for the money this year out of 13 I have listed above?

 

You'd have to wait until those contracts were fulfilled, and evaluate based on the life of the contract.

[CUBZ99]

The fact that Jacque Jones had a career year and it's still being debated whether he's worth the money should tell you all you need to know about the contract.

 

How would you rank the players as far as production for the money this year out of 13 I have listed above?

 

You'd have to wait until those contracts were fulfilled, and evaluate based on the life of the contract.

 

How was this year Jones' career year? Seems to me that when he was 27 he had a better OPS, OBP, BA etc. Just because you say it is a fact does not make it so. Further, this year was not that far from Jones' career averages. There is no reason he can't repeat those numbers for two more years.

 

Signing Jacque turned out to be one of the better moves that Hendry made last offseason.

[Jon]

Jones is having his second best year ever. This is also only the second time his OPS has been over .800 and it's not that close to his career average.

[SouthSideRyan]

The fact that Jacque Jones had a career year and it's still being debated whether he's worth the money should tell you all you need to know about the contract.

 

Lots of things are debated. Whether Dusty's a good manager, whether Adam Dunn is a good baseball player, whether OBP is important at the top of a lineup.

 

The face that something is debated should tell you nothing about anything.

[CUBZ99]

Jones is having his second best year ever. This is also only the second time his OPS has been over .800 and it's not that close to his career average.

 

Jones' OPS over the last three years at the Metrodome was .746. You and others totally dismiss the fact that it was possible his OPS was low due (at least in part) to playing in the Metrodome.

[RynoRules]

The fact that Jacque Jones had a career year and it's still being debated whether he's worth the money should tell you all you need to know about the contract.

 

Yes, debated by all of us, the true experts. That's a ridiculous comment, IMO: the fact that something is being debated means that the debate is warranted? That's interesting logic. I know people who would debate you to the end that the Earth is actually flat.

 

Point is, in terms of production relative to salary, Jones was very good this year.

[Peoriaman]

You know, some people can't freakin admit that Jones was worth the money. Who the hell knows about year 2 or 3? All you can do is judge how he actually has performed.

 

Stop whining about everything please.

[Banedon]

You know, some people can't freakin admit that Jones was worth the money. Who the hell knows about year 2 or 3? All you can do is judge how he actually has performed.

 

Stop whining about everything please.

 

No one was whining. Someone brought up the topic trying to say that those of us that thought he wasn't worth the money for the entire length of the contract were wrong. We simply can't say that at this point.

[Peoriaman]

well then, you really can never tell whether someone is worth the money till he has played out the contract. Somebody here made the point that he did well in year one. Most here have said he sucked since he was signed. Let's give the guy a little credit here for actually producing.

[CubColtPacer]

Jones is having his second best year ever. This is also only the second time his OPS has been over .800 and it's not that close to his career average.

 

Jones' OPS over the last three years at the Metrodome was .746. You and others totally dismiss the fact that it was possible his OPS was low due (at least in part) to playing in the Metrodome.

 

I think that's a great point. Here are his numbers for 02-05, and 06 home and away.

 

2002-

Home-.721

Away-.977

 

2003-

Home-.822

Away-.770

 

2004-

Home-.699

Away-.784

 

2005-

Home-.722

Away-.793

 

2006 (at Wrigley)

Home-.841

Away-.821

 

Jones moved from a park that was terrible for him, where 3 out of 4 years there was a significant OPS difference between his home park and on the road, in fact the 3 largest differences of those 4 years.

Now, he's probably in an easier division for the pitchers against him (this one is just a hunch that hitting in the NL Central has been easier than the AL Central the last couple years, taking out the teams he has been on-I might be wrong on this).

Also he has moved to a home park that suits him a great deal better-with that, and knowing that his lowest away OPS in the last 5 years was .770, that should probably be the lowest we should expect him out of next year. With .770 being the lowest he would be at, I think it would be reasonable for him to be close to or above .800 again next year, which for Jones salary is as I posted better than most teams in value.

[Laura]

To me ... for his salary, it's fine. But he's a mediocre at best right fielder on a team full of mediocre at best players.

 

Whoooopie.

[CUBZ99]

To me ... for his salary, it's fine. But he's a mediocre at best right fielder on a team full of mediocre at best players.

 

Whoooopie.

 

You have some pretty high standards.

Edited October 2, 2006 by CUBZ99

[Laura]

And given that he can't throw the ball without spiking or airmailing it, I really hope they give some consideration to moving him out of RF if they can't unload him altogether.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The fact that Jacque Jones had a career year and it's still being debated whether he's worth the money should tell you all you need to know about the contract.

 

Yes, debated by all of us, the true experts. That's a ridiculous comment, IMO: the fact that something is being debated means that the debate is warranted? That's interesting logic. I know people who would debate you to the end that the Earth is actually flat.

 

Point is, in terms of production relative to salary, Jones was very good this year.

 

So are you saying that the debate is irrational or isn't warranted? Jones had the second best season of his career, yet he still had a mediocre OBP and couldn't hit LHP to save his life. Is it possible for Jones to put up an OPS 40 points better than his career average(which includes this year) again at 32 and 33? I wouldn't bet on it, and that's the point. When Jones puts up an okay season as likely the best of the contract, then it's not a very good contract at all.

[Radar3454]

I did not the deal at all at 1st and I still think we could have done better but he definitely exceeded his contract this year and at his age we should not see much of a drop off in the next 2 years IMO so the deal is looking a lot better to me. I would still really like for us to find a platoon partner for him.