Ryan Theriot=Bench Player. Period.

[jaxxradio]

Sure Izturis is having a bad year defensively.. he played over half the freakin year playing THIRD BASE, not shortstop.

 

Trust me on this one.. I saw him enough in Dodgertown over the years to say without a shadow of a doubt.. he is one of the three best defensive shortstops in baseball today.

[biittner77]

Now I know alot of you kids are fixated on offense and while I agree the team needs more offense, this Cubs team is in more desperate need of pitching. Specifically, pitchers that tend to yield ground balls. If the Cubs can get their pitchers to induce more ground balls with the infield currently in place, I think alot of you will be surprised how improved this team will become both defensively and team ERA wise. By improving those two facets of the game, it puts less of a sense of urgency on the offense.

 

I'm 38 and therefore hardly a kid.

 

MI defense is fine as long as you're getting better than average production from the rest of the starters. Barrett is better than avg offensively as are Lee and Ramirez. Murton will be good. Jones is a decent complementary player. CF, however, is a huge weakness.

 

The Cubs can probably carry 2 defense first players and still win games. So if they upgrade CF they could carry Cedeno and Izturis and probably get away with it.

[goonys evil twin]

Offense put butts in the seats.. pitching and defense win championships.. Great pitching (and defense) beats great hitting 99 times out of 100.

 

If the infield in place plays the way they are capable of playing defensively, they will save enough runs to justify putting them there in the first place.

 

BTW, Izturis is one of the three best defensive SS in the game. While it's true his glove isn't great right now, give him the benefit of the doubt. Come 2007, he will be gold glove caliber again.

 

That's a nice use of a lot of cliches, it's just not anywhere close to true.

 

If it were, Ken Griffey and ARod wouldn't own Roger Clemens.

 

I'm not going to give the benefit of the doubt to somebody whose entire career is based on opinion when the facts say he's not good.

[jaxxradio]

Dang biit.. I'm 42 but if someone called me a kid, I would be happy..

 

It was just an expression..

[Guest]

Having seen both Theriot and Cedeno on a daily basis when they played in West Tenn, I can tell you that they both play solid defensively, which is WAY more important than what they bring to the plate based on the position they are playing.

 

Here we go again!

 

Theriot has shown he can draw a walk and get on base. There is far more hope for his bat than Cedeno's in my eyes. And you are ignoring the improvement in his numbers as he reached higher levels by looking at all 2000 at bats - that is an important factor. I wouldn't expect Theriot to become a star but if he can put up a .365 obp, that's a huge upgrade over Cedeno's 2006 numbers.

 

I really see no way that the Izturis trade is good for the Cubs. His defense can be the best in baseball but it still isn't going to make up for his anemic bat. As has been pointed out repeatedly, there are plenty of defensive wizards out there and the difference between Izturis and them just isn't that significant.

[goonys evil twin]

Sure Izturis is having a bad year defensively.. he played over half the freakin year playing THIRD BASE, not shortstop.

 

Trust me on this one.. I saw him enough in Dodgertown over the years to say without a shadow of a doubt.. he is one of the three best defensive shortstops in baseball today.

 

And I know enough about the inadequacies of opinion, hearsay, hyperbole and people who trust their eyes over facts to discount this statement considerably. Not to mention, somebody who is basing his opinion on spring training.

 

 

It's quite possible Izturis was once great with the glove. It's just as possible, that after several serious physical ailments he's just not the same.

[Guest]

The Cubs can probably carry 2 defense first players and still win games. So if they upgrade CF they could carry Cedeno and Izturis and probably get away with it.

 

not unless the pitching staff gets a whole lot better. Offensive holes are a huge problem in scoring runs consistently. an extra one is a big deal. theriot is not nearly the hole cedeno is because he gets on base.

[jaxxradio]

Okay, so is it safe to say that you would go with a guy like Tejada over Ozzie Smith (who wasn't very talented offensively average wise) or Omar Vizquel (an offensive clone of Ozzie's)??

 

If that's the case, you have an interesting perspective on the game.

[goonys evil twin]

Okay, so is it safe to say that you would go with a guy like Tejada over Ozzie Smith (who wasn't very talented offensively average wise) or Omar Vizquel (an offensive clone of Ozzie's)??

 

If that's the case, you have an interesting perspective on the game.

 

Depends on a lot of things, whose available, what the cost is, and what the rest of the team looks like. Not to mention, what stage of their careers, etc.

 

 

I'd like to think I have an interesting perspective on the game because I believe those people who rely on conventional wisdom have an incredibly boring, and largely inaccurante perspective on the game.

[soccer10k]

I would like to go on record as saying that even though I like Theriot more than a lot of people here, I would be all in favor of signing Soriano to play 2B next year. We do need an offensive upgrade and if the best/easiest way of doing so is getting Soriano to play 2B, then by all means the Cubs should for it and I would back the decision 100%.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Okay, so is it safe to say that you would go with a guy like Tejada over Ozzie Smith (who wasn't very talented offensively average wise) or Omar Vizquel (an offensive clone of Ozzie's)??

 

If that's the case, you have an interesting perspective on the game.

 

Of course, Tejada is much much much better offensively and still average defensively. Ozzie and Omar were extraoardinary defenders but were well below average offensively. Plus, when you consider offense makes up more of the game than defense it's a real easy decision.

[jaxxradio]

Gee Goony it could also be that maybe (just maybe), Izturis is having a bad year defensively because HE DIDN'T PLAY SHORTSTOP THIS SEASON UNTIL THE CUBS GOT HIM!!!

 

Stitch, by making the defense better up the middle (especially at 2nd and short), the pitchers get better. It all goes hand in hand.

[Guest]

Okay, so is it safe to say that you would go with a guy like Tejada over Ozzie Smith (who wasn't very talented offensively average wise) or Omar Vizquel (an offensive clone of Ozzie's)??

 

If that's the case, you have an interesting perspective on the game.

 

Tejada is hardly the poster child for a great offensive player and Ozzie and Omar both had some highly effective seasons. Ozzie also played in a very different era. I would certainly take Derek Jeter or Alex Rodriguez or Nomar in his prime over either of those guys.

[biittner77]

Dang biit.. I'm 42 but if someone called me a kid, I would be happy..

 

It was just an expression..

 

Well I don't look or feel 38. :D

 

The need for offense goes back all the way to 2003. Even when the Cubs had good pitching they still were losing a lot of 1-0 games.

 

Personally I believe Cedeno will be much improved next year both offensively and defensively. If the Cubs got Andruw Jones to play CF I'd have no problem with a MI of Theriot and Cedeno. Izturis, I have no use for him regardless of other moves.

[CubColtPacer]

Sure Izturis is having a bad year defensively.. he played over half the freakin year playing THIRD BASE, not shortstop.

 

Trust me on this one.. I saw him enough in Dodgertown over the years to say without a shadow of a doubt.. he is one of the three best defensive shortstops in baseball today.

 

And I know enough about the inadequacies of opinion, hearsay, hyperbole and people who trust their eyes over facts to discount this statement considerably. Not to mention, somebody who is basing his opinion on spring training.

 

 

It's quite possible Izturis was once great with the glove. It's just as possible, that after several serious physical ailments he's just not the same.

 

Izturis has been up and down with the glove in his short time here. He wa s very questionable the first week he was here..then he was amazing for the next two weeks before he got hurt (he made several plays that in my estimation other shortstops wouldn't have made). Then he's come back-in the couple games he's played, he's been very bad defensively-but he's also still been hurt in that time, as can be seen by the fact that he immediately has stopped playing again due to the hamstring.

 

He's shown flashes of his reputation-he's also made substandard plays at a higher rate than a player with his reputation should have. Overall, I've been slightly disappointed, but with the injuries, the short sample size, and all the turnover I'm reserving final judgement on his abilities until 2007.

[Guest]

Gee Goony it could also be that maybe (just maybe), Izturis is having a bad year defensively because HE DIDN'T PLAY SHORTSTOP THIS SEASON UNTIL THE CUBS GOT HIM!!!

 

Stitch, by making the defense better up the middle (especially at 2nd and short), the pitchers get better. It all goes hand in hand.

 

yes, defense and pitching are inseparable. the problem is they don't improve sufficiently to make up for the offensive inadequacies. the difference between Izturis and a good defensive shortstop is not as significant as the difference between Izturis and a good hitting shortstop.

 

To play your game, how many championships has Vizquel won? How many did Ozzie win? You don't need the greatest SS in baseball to win the World Series.

[jaxxradio]

I'll say it again.. Great pitching beats great hitting..you can have all the great hitting in the world, but when that great or hot offense goes up against a great or hot pitching staff.. you'll get beat.. in the Cardinals case back in the 2004 World Series, swept.

[Guest]

I'll say it again.. Great pitching beats great hitting..you can have all the great hitting in the world, but when that great or hot offense goes up against a great or hot pitching staff.. you'll get beat.. in the Cardinals case back in the 2004 World Series, swept.

 

Interesting example . . . both teams led their respective leagues in hitting and neither in pitching.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'll say it again.. Great pitching beats great hitting..you can have all the great hitting in the world, but when that great or hot offense goes up against a great or hot pitching staff.. you'll get beat.. in the Cardinals case back in the 2004 World Series, swept.

 

Boston scored 6 runs per game in the '04 world series, not that any 4 game span really proves that concept.

[jaxxradio]

Stitch, you right.. you don't need the greatest SS defensively to win.. but you need DEFENSE and PITCHING to win a World Series. I can name you a ton of teams that didn't have a great offense that won a ring (the 1988 Dodgers and the 1990 Reds come to mind). I can name you a BOATLOAD of teams that had a great offense that didn't win the ring (as an Indians fan, I'll put the 1995 Indians, as one of many cases in point).

[goonys evil twin]

I'll say it again.. Great pitching beats great hitting..you can have all the great hitting in the world, but when that great or hot offense goes up against a great or hot pitching staff.. you'll get beat.. in the Cardinals case back in the 2004 World Series, swept.

 

That's your case?

 

 

Again, nice cliche, not much substance.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Stitch, you right.. you don't need the greatest SS defensively to win.. but you need DEFENSE and PITCHING to win a World Series. I can name you a ton of teams that didn't have a great offense that won a ring (the 1988 Dodgers and the 1990 Reds come to mind). I can name you a BOATLOAD of teams that had a great offense that didn't win the ring (as an Indians fan, I'll put the 1995 Indians, as one of many cases in point).

 

Of "DEFENSE and PITCHING", how much do each play a part, in your opinion? 50/50, 60/40, etc.

[wastra]

I read a long statistical analysis on this a couple years back- I think based on Bill James' research.

 

It said that a best-in-the-leauge defensive inflielder can save his team something like 25-35 baserunners per year over the league average. that equates to around 5-15 runs, I believe, if you consider the league average % of baserunners that reach base and eventually score. (Don't quote me on exact numbers, I'm working from memory).

 

A good hitter, however, can be responsible for something like 30-50+ more runs than the league average shortstop if you simply consider gross stats alone (homers, runs, RBI, etc), and that's not counting the better predictors such as OBP, SLG, OPS+, etc).

 

So it's pretty obvious that defense, while not a worthless trait, pales next to the production of a solid hitter. That's not to say you want a TERRIBLE defender out there- you certainly don't. But it lillustrates that a stellar defensive player with a terrible bat is clearly inferior to an average hitter/average fielder.

 

 

Ultimately, a very good hitter will create more runs over an average hitter than a very good fielder can possibly SAVE over an average fielder, and by a rather considerable amount. Hence offense > fielding.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Okay, so is it safe to say that you would go with a guy like Tejada over Ozzie Smith (who wasn't very talented offensively average wise) or Omar Vizquel (an offensive clone of Ozzie's)??

 

If that's the case, you have an interesting perspective on the game.

 

The Cubs have the worst offense in baseball. Their defense is nowhere near as bad. I'd take Tejada any day of the week.

[jaxxradio]

Your right, Boston didn't lead the AL in pitching that year.. but there staff got hot (really hot) at the right time. Four in a row over the Yankees and four more against St. Louis. The pitching was phenominal over that period.