Ryan Theriot=Bench Player. Period.

[KingCubsFan]

I've noticed that, recently, a lot of people have begun promoting Ryan Theriot as a possible starter for next season, while throwing Ronny Cedeno under the bus because he's had one rough season. Although Theriot is having a good run (and continuing it tonight) I think we all need to step back, and be reminded what kind of player he really is: maybe a solid bench player.

Minor League Numbers (before this year):

494 Games, .265 avg., .353 OBP, .331 slg, 5 HR's (no this is not a season high, this is his career total over almost 500 games). His numbers might have gone up a bit due to his AAA success, but not too much.

In fact, one could argue that Cedeno actually has better career minor league numbers, taking into consideration the fact that while Theriot was usually old for his league, Cedeno was young:

535 games, .265 ang., .318 OBP, .376 slg, 25 HR's. Again, not very impressive, but not terrible considering how rushed he was.

How can Theriot possibly be considered an upgrade? Sure, he gets on base more, but a .353 career OBP in the minors should not warrant a starting position on a team looking to make the playoffs. He might prove me wrong and become a good starter, but I don't think his hot streak should overshadow the rest of his career.

So, when asked whether Theriot should start next year, be like Snoop and just:

http://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/snoopsmh.gif

[Sammy Sofa]

This thread should be bolded, stickied at the top of the page and somehow have fireworks shooting from it. PREACH ON!!!

 

Though I'm also all for throwing Cedeno under anything that keeps him from starting for the Cubs next year.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Sammy Sofa

[kroth1342]

While you make some good points, I think the important thing to determine first is what kind of aspirations the Cubs have for next year. I'm fairly pessimistic about the team's chances in the short run, considering Hendry and MacPhail's mismanagement the past two years. If the team is blown up (as I think it should be if Aramis leaves), then trying Theriot might not be such a bad idea.

 

Alternatively, if the Cubs make a big offseason splash at OF/SP (their biggest needs), then maybe Theriot can have one year to prove himself, much like Cedeno did. An interesting situation though.

[Sammy Sofa]

While you make some good points, I think the important thing to determine first is what kind of aspirations the Cubs have for next year. I'm fairly pessimistic about the team's chances in the short run, considering Hendry and MacPhail's mismanagement the past two years. If the team is blown up (as I think it should be if Aramis leaves), then trying Theriot might not be such a bad idea.

 

Alternatively, if the Cubs make a big offseason splash at OF/SP (their biggest needs), then maybe Theriot can have one year to prove himself, much like Cedeno did. An interesting situation though.

 

I'd still prefer if they traded away the big guns that they get a better IF prospect than Cedeno or Theriot as part of the influx of players. Theriot does nothing for you as a starter on ANY kind of team.

[mg420]

I've noticed that, recently, a lot of people have begun promoting Ryan Theriot as a possible starter for next season, while throwing Ronny Cedeno under the bus because he's had one rough season. Although Theriot is having a good run (and continuing it tonight) I think we all need to step back, and be reminded what kind of player he really is: maybe a solid bench player.

Minor League Numbers (before this year):

494 Games, .265 avg., .353 OBP, .331 slg, 5 HR's (no this is not a season high, this is his career total over almost 500 games). His numbers might have gone up a bit due to his AAA success, but not too much.

In fact, one could argue that Cedeno actually has better career minor league numbers, taking into consideration the fact that while Theriot was usually old for his league, Cedeno was young:

535 games, .265 ang., .318 OBP, .376 slg, 25 HR's. Again, not very impressive, but not terrible considering how rushed he was.

How can Theriot possibly be considered an upgrade? Sure, he gets on base more, but a .353 career OBP in the minors should not warrant a starting position on a team looking to make the playoffs. He might prove me wrong and become a good starter, but I don't think his hot streak should overshadow the rest of his career.

So, when asked whether Theriot should start next year, be like Snoop and just:

http://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/snoopsmh.gif

 

look at oakland, the twins, st louis, detroit, & boston as far as 2b & ops.

[kroth1342]

While you make some good points, I think the important thing to determine first is what kind of aspirations the Cubs have for next year. I'm fairly pessimistic about the team's chances in the short run, considering Hendry and MacPhail's mismanagement the past two years. If the team is blown up (as I think it should be if Aramis leaves), then trying Theriot might not be such a bad idea.

 

Alternatively, if the Cubs make a big offseason splash at OF/SP (their biggest needs), then maybe Theriot can have one year to prove himself, much like Cedeno did. An interesting situation though.

 

I'd still prefer if they traded away the big guns that they get a better IF prospect than Cedeno or Theriot as part of the influx of players. Theriot does nothing for you as a starter on ANY kind of team.

 

I never stated that I would prefer Theriot or Cedeno to talented IF and OF prospects our organization desperately needs. I'm just speaking in hypotheticals, but I see your point and don't disagree.

[Sammy Sofa]

I've noticed that, recently, a lot of people have begun promoting Ryan Theriot as a possible starter for next season, while throwing Ronny Cedeno under the bus because he's had one rough season. Although Theriot is having a good run (and continuing it tonight) I think we all need to step back, and be reminded what kind of player he really is: maybe a solid bench player.

Minor League Numbers (before this year):

494 Games, .265 avg., .353 OBP, .331 slg, 5 HR's (no this is not a season high, this is his career total over almost 500 games). His numbers might have gone up a bit due to his AAA success, but not too much.

In fact, one could argue that Cedeno actually has better career minor league numbers, taking into consideration the fact that while Theriot was usually old for his league, Cedeno was young:

535 games, .265 ang., .318 OBP, .376 slg, 25 HR's. Again, not very impressive, but not terrible considering how rushed he was.

How can Theriot possibly be considered an upgrade? Sure, he gets on base more, but a .353 career OBP in the minors should not warrant a starting position on a team looking to make the playoffs. He might prove me wrong and become a good starter, but I don't think his hot streak should overshadow the rest of his career.

So, when asked whether Theriot should start next year, be like Snoop and just:

http://www.users.muohio.edu/rothkr/snoopsmh.gif

 

look at oakland, the twins, st louis, detroit, & boston as far as 2b & ops.

 

That doesn't support playing an average at best player almost every day on a team shooting to be average at best. Guys like Cedeno and Theriot are not Murton and Hill. They simply don't have the career indicators that support them being successful starters.

[soccer10k]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

[Sammy Sofa]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

 

This is the truth.

[KingCubsFan]

look at oakland, the twins, st louis, detroit, & boston as far as 2b & ops.

Luis Castillo: .722

Mark Ellis: .704

Placido Polanco: .684

Mark Loretta: .723

Ryan Theriot (Minor Leagues): .684

 

Assuming Theriot's minor league numbers simply translated into major league numbers (which they wouldn't), he'd still be tied for the worst OPS. This isn't a very good argument. Just because some good teams have mediocre 2b doesn't mean we should stick some 27 year-old minor league veteran into our lineup and still expect to win.

[Yestheydo]

I think people are just impressed to see a guy make the most of an opportunity for once. It doesn't happen that often around here. The Cubs have enough other holes to fill, it won't kill them to let Cedeno and Theriot fight for 2b next year. I agree he's not Ryne Sandberg, but a .350 OBP isn't out of the question at all. He's fighting for a spot, dangit, and I want to see how long he can keep it up. Edited September 19, 2006 by Yestheydo

[soccer10k]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

 

Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous.

 

If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous.

[kroth1342]

look at oakland, the twins, st louis, detroit, & boston as far as 2b & ops.

Luis Castillo: .722

Mark Ellis: .704

Placido Polanco: .684

Mark Loretta: .723

Ryan Theriot (Minor Leagues): .684

 

Assuming Theriot's minor league numbers simply translated into major league numbers (which they wouldn't), he'd still be tied for the worst OPS. This isn't a very good argument. Just because some good teams have mediocre 2b doesn't mean we should stick some 27 year-old minor league veteran into our lineup and still expect to win.

 

In addition, the aforementioned teams perform much better than we do in certain areas of the game be it pitching (OAK, MIN, DET) or offense (BOS, DET, STL) and therefore can get away with those players at 2B. We are bad at everything, hence we need to upgrade everything if possible. If Theriot will keep perform at this level or just below it, that is an upgrade.

[kroth1342]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

 

Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous.

 

If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous.

 

But we've only seen around 110 AB from Theriot, who knows what would happen in the next 500.

[KingCubsFan]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

 

Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous.

 

If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous.

23 year-old middle infield prospects typically don't have great offensive seasons in their first full year, particularly when they have been rushed and have had only 1/2 a year of AAA. I think you're giving up on Cedeno too early. While I agree with many that having an Izturis/Cedeno combo would be horrible offensively, I'd rather have it than a Theriot/Izturis combo, simply because Cedeno has more potential. If you're going to rebuild, you should have the players out there with the most potential. And if you're going for the playoffs, you probably shouldn't have either out there with Izturis.

[Laura]

Another thing to consider is -- if Hendry has committed himself to Cesar at SS (and obviously barring the ever-rumored trade for Tejada or A-Rod) -- Cesar's stamina. I by no means think he should play through a sore hammy in a lost season, but it does give me some pause when I consider that he will probably play in fewer Cubs games than the '04 Nomar.

 

Cesar hasn't exactly been an IronMan so far. If he's supposed to be the starting SS next season, I sure hope there's a decent bench backup for him.

[soccer10k]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

 

Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous.

 

If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous.

23 year-old middle infield prospects typically don't have great offensive seasons in their first full year, particularly when they have been rushed and have had only 1/2 a year of AAA. I think you're giving up on Cedeno too early. While I agree with many that having an Izturis/Cedeno combo would be horrible offensively, I'd rather have it than a Theriot/Izturis combo, simply because Cedeno has more potential. If you're going to rebuild, you should have the players out there with the most potential. And if you're going for the playoffs, you probably shouldn't have either out there with Izturis.

 

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

[Rob]

Another thing to consider is -- if Hendry has committed himself to Cesar at SS (and obviously barring the ever-rumored trade for Tejada or A-Rod) -- Cesar's stamina. I by no means think he should play through a sore hammy in a lost season, but it does give me some pause when I consider that he will probably play in fewer Cubs games than the '04 Nomar.

 

Cesar hasn't exactly been an IronMan so far. If he's supposed to be the starting SS next season, I sure hope there's a decent bench backup for him.

 

What do you mean? Like having foresight?

[KingCubsFan]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

 

Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous.

 

If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous.

23 year-old middle infield prospects typically don't have great offensive seasons in their first full year, particularly when they have been rushed and have had only 1/2 a year of AAA. I think you're giving up on Cedeno too early. While I agree with many that having an Izturis/Cedeno combo would be horrible offensively, I'd rather have it than a Theriot/Izturis combo, simply because Cedeno has more potential. If you're going to rebuild, you should have the players out there with the most potential. And if you're going for the playoffs, you probably shouldn't have either out there with Izturis.

 

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

[kroth1342]

I just don't see how you can be so definative about something like this. While I agree that it's not likely, you just can't be 100% sure about this sort of thing. You can go ahead and cite all the minor league statistics you want and compare Theriot to any player you want to but the fact remains that there is just one Ryan Theriot and you don't know what his major league career is going to end up looking like. To say he is a "bench player. Period." is just stupid. Let the guy perform. Give him a chance.

 

What people are saying is that our offense is so bad we can't afford to give him that chance. And if we give up on next season, then there are players more deserving than Theriot that should get a shot.

 

Why would we even consider giving up on next season? Ridiculous.

 

If the choice was between Ronny Cedeno or Ryan Theriot starting at second base next year, who would you pick? I wouldn't think twice before choosing Theriot. We've seen what Cedeno can do playing full time and .612 OPS is horrendous.

23 year-old middle infield prospects typically don't have great offensive seasons in their first full year, particularly when they have been rushed and have had only 1/2 a year of AAA. I think you're giving up on Cedeno too early. While I agree with many that having an Izturis/Cedeno combo would be horrible offensively, I'd rather have it than a Theriot/Izturis combo, simply because Cedeno has more potential. If you're going to rebuild, you should have the players out there with the most potential. And if you're going for the playoffs, you probably shouldn't have either out there with Izturis.

 

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

 

http://www.londonist.com/attachments/Hazel/ether.JPG

 

Straight ETHER!!!!!

[soccer10k]

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

 

So you don't think those lineups are capable of scoring runs and aren't playoff quality lineups?

[kroth1342]

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

 

So you don't think those lineups are capable of scoring runs and aren't playoff quality lineups?

 

No, I think those lineups are capable of scoring runs, but with potentially three holes in the lineup (2B, SS, P) - they probably won't score enough. Combine that with average or below average pitching, and you've got problems.

[Laura]

Another thing to consider is -- if Hendry has committed himself to Cesar at SS (and obviously barring the ever-rumored trade for Tejada or A-Rod) -- Cesar's stamina. I by no means think he should play through a sore hammy in a lost season, but it does give me some pause when I consider that he will probably play in fewer Cubs games than the '04 Nomar.

 

Cesar hasn't exactly been an IronMan so far. If he's supposed to be the starting SS next season, I sure hope there's a decent bench backup for him.

 

What do you mean? Like having foresight?

 

I know, it's unlikely.

 

Theriot seems like he'd fit right in on the bench, and that's not a slap on him. A lot of people here like Ryan Freel. Wouldn't it be nice if Theriot could develop into a Freel-type player? Freel has been best in a super-sub role.

[soccer10k]

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

 

So you don't think those lineups are capable of scoring runs and aren't playoff quality lineups?

 

No, I think those lineups are capable of scoring runs, but with potentially three holes in the lineup (2B, SS, P) - they probably won't score enough. Combine that with average or below average pitching, and you've got problems.

 

You can't cite the pitchers spot as a gaping hole because there is no better option. The Cubs are in the NL. The pitcher has to bat.

 

How do you know the Cubs will ave "average or below average pitching" as well? You don't. That lineup plus a decent rotation (depending on who they pick up) equals a contending team.