Jacque Jones Appreciation

[CuseCubFan69]

Sure it does and depending on the situation if the defender bobbles it or throws it poorly, increases the chances of getting on base. Also, there's nothing negative that can come from running out a play.

 

Would you rather not have them run it out? Do you want them to not hustle?

 

It's more of an observation made at the real target of the "running out ground balls" comment. Given who generally is the target of the "hustle" crtitiques, I'd rather he not sprint every single ground ball out because the likelihood of injury to a relatively slow player is higher than the liklihood of a bad throw on a routine ground ball.

 

It's not like I don't want players to hustle, but in general I'll take a max talent guy over a max effort guy 100 times out of 100.

 

So the runners had had more injuires than Cedeno, Walker or Ramirez had errors? I don't think so USS.

 

But on many of those errors it doesn't matter if the guy ran hard, slow, or backwards. That's not the right comparison.

 

True it's not but I'll still say bobbles, pitchers not covering right off the bat and slightly off throws still happen more often than hamstring pulls.

[UK1679666180]

It's more of an observation made at the real target of the "running out ground balls" comment. Given who generally is the target of the "hustle" crtitiques, I'd rather he not sprint every single ground ball out because the likelihood of injury to a relatively slow player is higher than the liklihood of a bad throw on a routine ground ball.

 

It's not like I don't want players to hustle, but in general I'll take a max talent guy over a max effort guy 100 times out of 100.

 

I'd want Ramirez to run out everything, regardless of the poss. of himpulling something, that includes singles that could've been doubles and so on.

 

It's not an either or case of woukd you rather have the more productive player who doesn't hustle, which it appears you're trying to shift it to as no one has mentioned anything beyond Jones running out grounders. In this instance, if there's a player who's talented but has the rep. of being a loafer, I'd rather see him hustle.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

[UK1679666180]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

How so? Guys who put the ball in play as their primary strength often lacks patience and the ability to drive the ball. "Clogging the bases" is incorrect by itself.

 

There's something negative that can come the type of contact at any cost hitter and everyone knows the benefit of getting slow runners via a BB, but what is negative about running a ground ball out?

 

If I was a HS coach and a kid did not touch 1B on every ball hit that was in play, he'd be comfortable on the bench.

 

Nothing angers me more than players not hustling.

[Sammy Sofa]

Nothing angers me more than players not hustling.

 

So the vague times someone like, oh, I don't know, Aramis "doesn't hustle," THAT gets you mad more than anything or anyone else involved with the 2006 Cubs?

 

Wow. My hat's off to that.

[UK1679666180]

Nothing angers me more than players not hustling.

 

So the vague times someone like, oh, I don't know, Aramis "doesn't hustle," THAT gets you mad more than anything or anyone else involved with the 2006 Cubs?

 

Wow. My hat's off to that.

 

Yeah, a flaw in a thought process would not anger me as much as a flaw in effort.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

That's your choice but that isn't what anyone said.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

That's your choice but that isn't what anyone said.

 

That's just my general list of baseball absurdities that I keep hearing that either mean nothing are just not very bright.

[Backtobanks]

I appreciate the fact that he runs out every ground ball.

 

Yeah, that's the sort of trait that wins baseball games...

 

That aside, if the Cubs had a better CF, SS or 2B you can deal with Jones in RF batting 6th or 7th. He had a nice power year. I still think what would be best for him would be a platoon situation.

 

It might get you an infield single or it might prevent a double play to win a game. All I'm saying is, that as a fan, I appreciate when a player hustles on every play. There are far too many players that stand around like inanimate objects and refuse to hustle on any play. There seems to be a lot of support on NSSBB for Adam Dunn who is a perfect example of an inanimate object.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

That's your choice but that isn't what anyone said.

 

That's just my general list of baseball absurdities that I keep hearing that either mean nothing are just not very bright.

 

Wow...you'd rather see guys jog down the first base line on a grounder than run hard? That's absurd?

 

I'll give you the same exact team as I have. Your teams jogs for flyballs and running out grounders while mine hustles. I'll bet my team wins more games.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

That's your choice but that isn't what anyone said.

 

That's just my general list of baseball absurdities that I keep hearing that either mean nothing are just not very bright.

 

Wow...you'd rather see guys jog down the first base line on a grounder than run hard? That's absurd?

 

I'll give you the same exact team as I have. Your teams jogs for flyballs and running out grounders while mine hustles. I'll bet my team wins more games.

 

I'm not saying a player should be "lazy" all the time. I just think the idea of "lack of hustle" costing games or even excessive runs is a totally subjective non-issue that ultimately can't be proven or disproven. And "hustling" all the time, in my opinion, doesn't somehow improve or excuse a mediocre player. See: Burnitz, Jeromy.

 

Bottom line, if the choice is between "hustling" players like Jacque and Burnitz and "lazy" players like Dunn, Manny and Aramis, give me the latter any day of the week.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

That's your choice but that isn't what anyone said.

 

That's just my general list of baseball absurdities that I keep hearing that either mean nothing are just not very bright.

 

Wow...you'd rather see guys jog down the first base line on a grounder than run hard? That's absurd?

 

I'll give you the same exact team as I have. Your teams jogs for flyballs and running out grounders while mine hustles. I'll bet my team wins more games.

 

If they're of equal talent.

[UK1679666180]

I'm not saying a player should be "lazy" all the time. I just think the idea of "lack of hustle" costing games or even excessive runs is a totally subjective non-issue that ultimately can't be proven or disproven. And "hustling" all the time, in my opinion, doesn't somehow improve or excuse a mediocre player. See: Burnitz, Jeromy.

 

I think it has an overall negative effect on a team, while a team still can be good with someone like that, it probably isn't as good as it would be had the player shown a proper work ethic. More often than not, a player who doesn't hustle on the field usally doesn't work hard off the field (cages, lifting, dieting, stretching, etc). If even one player isn't doing as much as he should (not even mentioning doing more than he should), it'll impact the team, even an all-star. If you take a dominant player who doesn't wort at being good, he would still be better had he put more effort, it's impossible to judge how much better, but everyone would be better off (except everyone else in the League).

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

That's your choice but that isn't what anyone said.

 

That's just my general list of baseball absurdities that I keep hearing that either mean nothing are just not very bright.

 

Wow...you'd rather see guys jog down the first base line on a grounder than run hard? That's absurd?

 

I'll give you the same exact team as I have. Your teams jogs for flyballs and running out grounders while mine hustles. I'll bet my team wins more games.

 

I'm not saying a player should be "lazy" all the time. I just think the idea of "lack of hustle" costing games or even excessive runs is a totally subjective non-issue that ultimately can't be proven or disproven. And "hustling" all the time, in my opinion, doesn't somehow improve or excuse a mediocre player. See: Burnitz, Jeromy.

 

Bottom line, if the choice is between "hustling" players like Jacque and Burnitz and "lazy" players like Dunn, Manny and Aramis, give me the latter any day of the week.

 

I disagree. I think it gives a player more value if they hustle in every way. If Jones or Burnitz are lazy they don't get the PT they do now. I'd rather have a hustling Ramirez than one that jogs. No one siad it was between hustling and talent. The dabate is if it is worth hustling or not. Granted it may not be an excessive runs tally type thing but it certainly is better than just jogging in every way. Even if it wins just 1 to 5 games isn't that worth just giving the 100 percent effort?

[Sammy Sofa]

How do you know it would win you 1-5 more games?

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm chalking "he does/doesn't hustle" up there with "guys who put the ball in play" and "clogging the bases."

 

That's your choice but that isn't what anyone said.

 

That's just my general list of baseball absurdities that I keep hearing that either mean nothing are just not very bright.

 

Wow...you'd rather see guys jog down the first base line on a grounder than run hard? That's absurd?

 

I'll give you the same exact team as I have. Your teams jogs for flyballs and running out grounders while mine hustles. I'll bet my team wins more games.

 

If they're of equal talent.

 

That's why wrote that. I should have said of equal talent. Heck, I'd take a slightly less talented one too!

[UK1679666180]

How do you know it would win you 1-5 more games?

 

I think it is fair to assume over the course of a season that a runner hustling from to 1B to 3B or stretching a single into a double or someone backing up a play that isn't part of his defensive responsibilites that can impact the game in a positive manner that would not have occured had he not done it.

 

There's nothing negative that can come from hustling on a play.

[Sammy Sofa]

How do you know it would win you 1-5 more games?

 

I think it is fair to assume over the course of a season that a runner hustling from to 1B to 3B or stretching a single into a double or someone backing up a play that isn't part of his defensive responsibilites that can impact the game in a positive manner that would not have occured had he not done it.

 

There's nothing negative that can come from hustling on a play.

 

Except if you expect it from a guy that isn't one of those type of players (Aramis, Manny, Dunn, etc.). Odds are at this point it's going to get them hurt and make them miss more playing time than they would if they didn't "hustle" or "stretch it out" all the time. Players get set in their ways as they get older, especially the ones with very obvious talents. If their talents extend away from having to be a "gamer," often they'll drift away from being that type of payer because they can with minimum negative impact to the rest of the team. Pushing guys like this to suddenly "step it up" when they really don't need to is going to push them out of their set fitness/playing routines and likely make them more at risk to get seriously hurt.

 

So would you rather have Aramis leg out those grounders every now and then or diving left and right and going on the DL more often or have him keep playing like he is and be able to offer his offensive skills to the team?

 

Too many people get on contributing and valuable players for hot "hustling" when the "hustling" isn't what makes them who they are nor would it significantly improve their game or the team around them. It's a superficial expectation better applied to teeball players than to MLB all stars. Especially when you're likely going to push them onto the DL and then we get nothing, hustle or otherwise.

[UK1679666180]

How do you know it would win you 1-5 more games?

 

I think it is fair to assume over the course of a season that a runner hustling from to 1B to 3B or stretching a single into a double or someone backing up a play that isn't part of his defensive responsibilites that can impact the game in a positive manner that would not have occured had he not done it.

 

There's nothing negative that can come from hustling on a play.

 

Except if you expect it from a guy that isn't one of those type of players (Aramis, Manny, Dunn, etc.). Odds are at this point it's going to get them hurt and make them miss more playing time than they would if they didn't "hustle" or "stretch it out" all the time. Players get set in their ways as they get older, especially the ones with very obvious talents. If their talents extend away from having to be a "gamer," often they'll drift away from being that type of payer because they can with minimum negative impact to the rest of the team. Pushing guys like this to suddenly "step it up" when they really don't need to is going to push them out of their set fitness/playing routines and likely make them more at risk to get seriously hurt.

 

So would you rather have Aramis leg out those grounders every now and then or diving left and right and going on the DL more often or have him keep playing like he is and be able to offer his offensive skills to the team?

 

Too many people get on contributing and valuable players for hot "hustling" when the "hustling" isn't what makes them who they are nor would it significantly improve their game or the team around them. It's a superficial expectation better applied to teeball players than to MLB all stars. Especially when you're likely going to push them onto the DL and then we get nothing, hustle or otherwise.

 

When they get older, (to remain healthy) they are expected to adjust their routine to stay in shape as well as prevention of muscle injuries. Think Nolan Ryan had the same workout program at 40 as well as 24? He didn't, his diet and especially his workout programs changed. Players regardless of effort level, have to change it as they get older. Everyone here keeps mentioning Ramirez, doesn't he already have a past history w/leg injuries (muscle)? That tells me something already.

 

If a player gets hurt from hustling more, either it's a fluke injury (Nomar and his groin injury in '05 vs. STL) or there are other aspects he isn't doing right (improving his conditioning, stretching, diet, etc.).

[RichHillIsABeast]

Jones may be SLGing close to .500, but you'd better be when your OBP is hovering around .330. His defense was very overrated. Spiking throws into the ground instead of hitting the cutoff man and airmailing home plate consistently shows me that he doesn't work on his defensive game much. Those accuracy problems are very curable given the effort. His baserunning gaffes really irritate me. His troubles with the fans (booing a player that early was ridiculous) early on make it seem like he has a thin skin.

 

I do like his clubhouse presence. He seems like a very nice guy, always smiling and laughing with his teammates. He has great opposite field power and hustles on the basepaths.

 

Basically, I think Jones costs us a lot more runs with his D, bad baserunning, and low OBP than he creates with his hustle.

[Sammy Sofa]

Maybe...or maybe it's realizing that "hustling" is such a vague and superficial issue that it's best to focus and encourage a player's overwhelming strengths instead of possibly sacrificing or taking valuable attention away from those for something incredibly subjective and not very well defined.

[UK1679666180]

Maybe...or maybe it's realizing that "hustling" is such a vague and superficial issue that it's best to focus and encourage a player's overwhelming strengths instead of possibly sacrificing those for something incredibly subjective and not very well defined.

 

There's no maybe there, if you can't run out a ball down the line without getting injured, either it's a fluke injury or he needs a personal trainer.

 

If he has a previous injury, that's another story that leads to a diff. debate of whether or not he should be in there.

 

You're not sacrificing anything by wanting your players to hustle everytime regardless if they're in tee-ball or the majors. There's no loss of focus expecting players to hustle.

[Sammy Sofa]

Maybe...or maybe it's realizing that "hustling" is such a vague and superficial issue that it's best to focus and encourage a player's overwhelming strengths instead of possibly sacrificing those for something incredibly subjective and not very well defined.

 

There's no maybe there, if you can't run out a ball down the line without getting injured, either it's a fluke injury or he needs a personal trainer.

 

If he has a previous injury, that's another story that leads to a diff. debate of whether or not he should be in there.

 

You're not sacrificing anything by wanting your players to hustle everytime regardless if they're in tee-ball or the majors. There's no loss of focus expecting players to hustle.

 

But I never said they're going to get hurt just from running out A "ball down the line." I take issue with expecting them to be pushed to haul ass over every single meaningless ground ball they dish out. If it's close and you have a shot, yes, push it out. Most of the time, however, with the "lazy" players, it's NOT close. It wouldn't be close even if they were in the best shape possible. I simply don't care if they don't run those out. It means nothing. It accomplished nothing. And again, even the times when it MIGHT be close and they dog it a bit, eh, the guys I'm talking about make up for any of those in spades with the talent they have. The "hustle," in my opinion, serves zero purpose as a legitimate playing equation or rating tool the overwhelming bulk of the time. It's a meaningless buzz word that doesn't quanitfy anything that is going to actually significantly impact the number of wins or losses a team has each year.

[UK1679666180]

Players that don't hustle to 1B, usually don't hustle to 2B and it carries over beyond running out grounders.

 

Do you get on a guy if stares at a long single that would be a 2B, but not on him running out a ground ball? What about Sean Casey when he was thrown out at 1B after he stopped after he assumed the SS caught the liner that ended up in LF?

 

Have to be consistent as a manager. If you don't demand him to run it out 99.9% of the time; how can you be upset the .001% of the time, him not running it out costs your team?

 

Talent doesn't dictate the amount of hustle expected from a player. Of course, the 25th guy doesn't have the talent to overlook that and his hustle or lack thereof sometimes determines whether or not they should send him to AAA or keep him as the utility guy.

[UK1679666180]

What does a player lose by hustling on every play?