"Sometimes it's easier to play on the road"

[CubColtPacer]

There need be no more evidence than what has already been discussed. It's not just a "regrettable comment." It's not just something he should have "kept to himself." He honestly believes black people are quicker and better in heat, and therefore better at baseball.

 

If that's not blatantly racist then I don't know what is!

 

Disregarding the fact that speed and ability to deal with the sun are WAY down the list of important factors for a baseball player...

 

Controversial, yes, but racist? The evidence isn't there. If one is racist and in the league for as long as Dusty has, shouldn't he have a string of incriminating incidents and quotes by now?

 

Do you want to really pretend to know what's in his heart? I'm sorry but when you say "He honestly believes black people are quicker and better in heat, and therefore better at baseball", that's pure conjecture. You have nothing to back it up.

 

Say what you will about Dusty's managerial skills and I'll most certainly agree with you: he's not a good game manager. But let's stop with the racism crap.

Dusty's quotes are on about the same level as Al Campanis a few ago whom was promptly labeled a racist and fired.

 

Al Campanis said:

 

Campanis said in a television interview that blacks "might not have the necessities" to be managers or general managers.

 

Dusty Baker said:

 

DUSTY BAKER, CHICAGO CUBS MANAGER: Personally, I like to play in the heat. You know, It's easier for me. I mean, it's easier for most Latin guys and most minority people because most of us come from heat. You know, you don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire and Maine and upper peninsula and Michigan, right? I mean, you know, we're brought over here for the heat. Right? I mean, ain't that -- isn't that history? Weren't we brought over here because we could take the heat?

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a long time ago, though.

 

BAKER: So?

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You might have become acclimated to a different climate.

 

BAKER: No, but your skin color is more conducive to heat than it is to the lighter skin colored people are to heat.

 

CNN Transcripts: CNN Transcripts

 

The thing is, he doesn't say anything about how each type of player plays in the heat. He doesn't say that the darker your skin is, the more likely you are to play baseball well in the heat. He only said that darker skinned people might be able to accomodate heat better. Was it smart of him to say? Probably not. At the same time, he practically said the same thing the other way when he was talking about being from those Northern cold states. The inference is that lighter skinned players would be more accomodating to cold weather. Is it true? It's impossible to tell-we do know that the lighter your skin, the more likely you are to have harmful effects of the sun-but I cannot think of a single way to prove conclusively one way or the other Dusty's claims other than anecdotal evidence. Even if it is true though, it has no discernable link to what happens on the field. It would be the same thing as somebody coming out and saying that men enjoy the cold more than women do-does that make a person sexist?

[Backtobanks]

I don't think Dusty is a racist, but having taught in the inner city of Chicago for 34 years, I ran into as many black racists as white. We even had "experts" come in to inservice us and some of them even stated that black people can not be racists. What a crock!!!!!

[FergieJ31]

> It would be the same thing as somebody coming out and saying that men enjoy the cold more than women do-does that make a person sexist?

 

Perfect analogy.

 

Also, Campanis' "not having the necessities" remark is not at all on the same par as Dusty's. Ask yourself how you'd feel if someone you just met took one look at you and made one of two prejudicial remarks:

 

"You don't look like you have the necessities for "

 

-or-

 

"You don't look like you handle the heat very well."

 

Which one would you find more offensive?

[halplm]

it's not about what's "more" offensive.

 

They're both offensive.

 

And they both cause predjudice, and they're both based on a person's skin color.

 

They're exactly the same.

[cubfan1955]

The thing is, he doesn't say anything about how each type of player plays in the heat. He doesn't say that the darker your skin is, the more likely you are to play baseball well in the heat. He only said that darker skinned people might be able to accomodate heat better. Was it smart of him to say? Probably not. At the same time, he practically said the same thing the other way when he was talking about being from those Northern cold states. The inference is that lighter skinned players would be more accomodating to cold weather. Is it true? It's impossible to tell-we do know that the lighter your skin, the more likely you are to have harmful effects of the sun-but I cannot think of a single way to prove conclusively one way or the other Dusty's claims other than anecdotal evidence. Even if it is true though, it has no discernable link to what happens on the field. It would be the same thing as somebody coming out and saying that men enjoy the cold more than women do-does that make a person sexist?

But saying that the minority handles the heat better is implying they will play better (in the summer heat). I'm not saying Dusty is a racist. He's just ignorant. As was Campanis. If the racist shoe fits one it should fit both.

[cubfan1955]

> It would be the same thing as somebody coming out and saying that men enjoy the cold more than women do-does that make a person sexist?

 

Perfect analogy.

 

Also, Campanis' "not having the necessities" remark is not at all on the same par as Dusty's. Ask yourself how you'd feel if someone you just met took one look at you and made one of two prejudicial remarks:

 

"You don't look like you have the necessities for "

 

-or-

 

"You don't look like you handle the heat very well."

 

Which one would you find more offensive?

I would be equally offended by both and consider the person saying them as ignorant.

[stitchface]

I don't think dusty's comments are anywhere near the level of campanis. I do think if dusty were white, he may well have been fired for the remarks. his remarks are silly but don't necessarily reveal a bias for or against one race. His treatment of certain players does suggest a bias, however. this would be pretty difficult to prove though and may just be random.

 

comparing this to the death threats is absurd in my opinion. particularly when you consider that it hasn't been very long since black people were in fact publicly lynched. to dismiss these stories is pretty callous and reckless in my opinion.

 

getting back to the article, the problem is that the author mixes two stories- one is racism and the other is the growing discontent of the fanbase. lumping them together implies that the discontent of the fanbase is causing racism amongst the fans. this leads to the conclusion that anyone that criticizes dusty is racist - clearly a ridiculous concept.

[halplm]

If a white person should be fired for making certain comment, a black person should certainly be fired for making the same comments!

 

Anythign else implies an inequality! And that's the definition of racism!

[stitchface]

If a white person should be fired for making certain comment, a black person should certainly be fired for making the same comments!

 

Anythign else implies an inequality! And that's the definition of racism!

 

I would say neither should be fired.

[FergieJ31]

it's not about what's "more" offensive.

 

They're both offensive.

 

And they both cause predjudice, and they're both based on a person's skin color.

 

They're exactly the same.

 

Exactly the same? I disagree. I found Campanis' remark over the top and outrageously offensive (and fwiw, I happen to be white). By contrast, I wasn't at all bothered by the admittedly-odd "handle the heat" remark. There was no animosity or hatred there - unlike Campanis' belittling remark.

 

Like I said before, where is Dusty's history? Stop pointing to a single quote as evidence. How long did it take John Rocker to show his true colors? If Dusty really was a racist, he would have been out of the league long ago.

[Tracer Bullet]

The thing is, he doesn't say anything about how each type of player plays in the heat. He doesn't say that the darker your skin is, the more likely you are to play baseball well in the heat. He only said that darker skinned people might be able to accomodate heat better. Was it smart of him to say? Probably not. At the same time, he practically said the same thing the other way when he was talking about being from those Northern cold states. The inference is that lighter skinned players would be more accomodating to cold weather. Is it true? It's impossible to tell-we do know that the lighter your skin, the more likely you are to have harmful effects of the sun-but I cannot think of a single way to prove conclusively one way or the other Dusty's claims other than anecdotal evidence. Even if it is true though, it has no discernable link to what happens on the field. It would be the same thing as somebody coming out and saying that men enjoy the cold more than women do-does that make a person sexist?

But saying that the minority handles the heat better is implying they will play better (in the summer heat). I'm not saying Dusty is a racist. He's just ignorant. As was Campanis. If the racist shoe fits one it should fit both.

 

whoa, ignorance = racism? Where does that come from? You say "I'm not saying Dusty is a racist" then you say "if the racist shoe fits one it should fit both." So are you saying Dusty's a racist?

 

Dusty said he handles the heat better. Whatever you infer from that statement does not mean that was Dusty's intent. Dusty didn't say either player was better than the other, he made an observation that darker skinned folks handle heat better. So maybe a white guy gets burned or has to use sunscreen or sweats more, he didn't say "White guys can't handle heat. So on hot summer days I only play black guys."

 

Again, if you're going to come to the table and declare Dusty a racist, you're going to need more than that.

[Tracer Bullet]

it's not about what's "more" offensive.

 

They're both offensive.

 

And they both cause predjudice, and they're both based on a person's skin color.

 

They're exactly the same.

 

what exactly does the bold phrase mean?

[Tracer Bullet]

If a white person should be fired for making certain comment, a black person should certainly be fired for making the same comments!

 

Anythign else implies an inequality! And that's the definition of racism!

 

What are you talking about? Who is getting fired?

[halplm]

If a white person should be fired for making certain comment, a black person should certainly be fired for making the same comments!

 

Anythign else implies an inequality! And that's the definition of racism!

 

What are you talking about? Who is getting fired?

 

Someone above said that if Dusty was white, he would have been fired for those comments.

 

There's a double standard we're talking about here. Dusty's Black, so he can't be racist. In fact, I do believe this was his exact response to the extremely brief questioning of his remarks.

 

If a white manager said he prefered playign black players because they could take the heat better... he'd be out the door before the end of the press conference.

[Tracer Bullet]

If a white person should be fired for making certain comment, a black person should certainly be fired for making the same comments!

 

Anythign else implies an inequality! And that's the definition of racism!

 

What are you talking about? Who is getting fired?

 

Someone above said that if Dusty was white, he would have been fired for those comments.

 

There's a double standard we're talking about here. Dusty's Black, so he can't be racist. In fact, I do believe this was his exact response to the extremely brief questioning of his remarks.

 

If a white manager said he prefered playign black players because they could take the heat better... he'd be out the door before the end of the press conference.

 

I don't know who said a white guy would have been fired for saying what Dusty said, but I think they're wrong. They may have been told that they're stupid and probably would have apologized b/c it looks bad, but that's it.

 

And where, exactly, did Dusty say he preferred to play black players? I think he said they can handle the heat better. I don't recall him stating a preference for them in those remarks. Let's not confuse the conclusions you're inferring from his remarks with what he's actually said.

 

One last thing - where does it say that Dusty can't be a racist. Dusty might very well be a racist. I just haven't seen any concrete evidence of it. I've seen a relatively dumb statement about "handling the heat" and some conclusions drawn from that statement.

[halplm]

Dusty can be as racist as he wants to be. he's entitled to it. He just should then never be put in a position to make personel decisions, as he will discriminate against white players, which is against the law.

 

And don't say you can be racist and that won't influence such decisions.

 

It amazes me that peopel don't see his statements as racist. He says black and darker skinned players are more suited to the heat. He says this in the context of playing baseball in the heat. He makes no apologies for these statements, and in fact stands by them when questioned about them.

[Tracer Bullet]

Dusty can be as racist as he wants to be. he's entitled to it. He just should then never be put in a position to make personel decisions, as he will discriminate against white players, which is against the law.

 

And don't say you can be racist and that won't influence such decisions.

 

It amazes me that peopel don't see his statements as racist. He says black and darker skinned players are more suited to the heat. He says this in the context of playing baseball in the heat. He makes no apologies for these statements, and in fact stands by them when questioned about them.

 

First - explain the bolded part please, b/c I don't see any of my comments that suggest anything of the sort.

 

Second - you keep saying he's a racist based on this one statement. If that's all you've got, we're just going to have to agree to disagree b/c that's certainly not going to convince me of anything. Why don't you find evidence that he rests white players during day games or really hot days or something like that? At least if you have evidence to corroborate your conclusions, that would be something.

 

His statement is pretty dumb, but it's not completely irrational to think that people with darker skin handle sun/heat better. People native to lands close to the equator tend to have darker skin than those native to places further from the equator. It's not completely out of the question that he's right. I'm pretty sure I don't think he's right, but it's not blatantly racist either.

[CubColtPacer]

Dusty can be as racist as he wants to be. he's entitled to it. He just should then never be put in a position to make personel decisions, as he will discriminate against white players, which is against the law.

 

And don't say you can be racist and that won't influence such decisions.

 

It amazes me that peopel don't see his statements as racist. He says black and darker skinned players are more suited to the heat. He says this in the context of playing baseball in the heat. He makes no apologies for these statements, and in fact stands by them when questioned about them.

 

Chicago's not hot all year though-in fact, it is quite cold for a decent part of the season. Here is a Dusty quote also about the same subject:

 

"What I meant is that blacks and Latins take the heat better than most whites, and whites take the cold better than most blacks and Latins. That's it, pure and simple. Nothing deeper than that."

 

Was it smart to say? No-but if it is your contention that he is racist against whites for saying they don't take the heat as well, then he is racist towards blacks and Latins for saying they don't take the cold as well. So he is not saying one race is better than another, just that they react differently to different situations.

 

Here is the source for that quote.

 

 

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/cubs/2003-07-07-baker_x.htm

[halplm]

If you don't see it, you don't want to see it. I personally don't care. I think he uses other criteria to make his stupid baseball moves before this gets into his head, but it's in there.

 

The only reason I would bring it up at all is that he brings up the race card when it suits him... and yet he says things like this...

 

The fact that in today's articles he's downplaying the USA today article... makes me think a little better of him, and a lot less of the writer of said article.

[cubfan1955]

The thing is, he doesn't say anything about how each type of player plays in the heat. He doesn't say that the darker your skin is, the more likely you are to play baseball well in the heat. He only said that darker skinned people might be able to accomodate heat better. Was it smart of him to say? Probably not. At the same time, he practically said the same thing the other way when he was talking about being from those Northern cold states. The inference is that lighter skinned players would be more accomodating to cold weather. Is it true? It's impossible to tell-we do know that the lighter your skin, the more likely you are to have harmful effects of the sun-but I cannot think of a single way to prove conclusively one way or the other Dusty's claims other than anecdotal evidence. Even if it is true though, it has no discernable link to what happens on the field. It would be the same thing as somebody coming out and saying that men enjoy the cold more than women do-does that make a person sexist?

But saying that the minority handles the heat better is implying they will play better (in the summer heat). I'm not saying Dusty is a racist. He's just ignorant. As was Campanis. If the racist shoe fits one it should fit both.

 

whoa, ignorance = racism? Where does that come from? You say "I'm not saying Dusty is a racist" then you say "if the racist shoe fits one it should fit both." So are you saying Dusty's a racist?

 

Dusty said he handles the heat better. Whatever you infer from that statement does not mean that was Dusty's intent. Dusty didn't say either player was better than the other, he made an observation that darker skinned folks handle heat better. So maybe a white guy gets burned or has to use sunscreen or sweats more, he didn't say "White guys can't handle heat. So on hot summer days I only play black guys."

 

Again, if you're going to come to the table and declare Dusty a racist, you're going to need more than that.

Again, I don't believe Dusty is a racist. Just ignorant. I feel the same about Campanis. I don't think he is the grand puba of the KKK but he was fired for his ignorant remarks.

 

I guarantee if a white coach of the US bobsledding team made the same statements about whites handling the cold, snow, or ice better than a black he would be fired immediately. There is a double standard in this country today and that's not a good thing either.

[RedIvyCub]

He absolutely did indicate he thought less of other races. He's a racist who wants more fast black players. [snip]

 

Are you seriously saying Dusty is racist? That is the silliest thing I've ever read on NSBB.

 

Yes, I'm seriously saying it, and Dusty has only supported that notion with his words and actions.

 

I have three words for you...pot, kettle, black.

[goonys evil twin]

He absolutely did indicate he thought less of other races. He's a racist who wants more fast black players. [snip]

 

Are you seriously saying Dusty is racist? That is the silliest thing I've ever read on NSBB.

 

Yes, I'm seriously saying it, and Dusty has only supported that notion with his words and actions.

 

I have three words for you...pot, kettle, black.

 

That I'm a racist? That's rich.

[halplm]

You didn't know? If you don't like Dusty, it must be because you're a racist.

[FergieJ31]

The notion that Dusty's famous quote is evidence of racism is ridiculous.

 

I noticed no one in the "Dusty is racist" camp addressed CubColtPacer's analogy of the diff between men and women: "It would be the same thing as somebody coming out and saying that men enjoy the cold more than women do-does that make a person sexist?"

 

And the movie "White Men Can't Jump" - were the producers racist?

 

Let's not pretend to know what's in his heart. He might actually be racist for all we know, but it sucks and it's embarrassing as a Cub fan to see that opinion (with no backing evidence) aired publically.

 

Dusty does point to a potential (and debatable) physiological difference between white athletes and black athletes. He has some little-known Bill James research on his side:

 

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/books/beginnings/01/31/taboo/

 

What About Baseball?

 

The relative dearth of black players in baseball -- about one in six major leaguers is African American -- is frequently cited as proof that blacks do not dominate sports. When a "racial report card" published a few years ago by Northeastern University's Center for The Study of Sport in Society noted that the percentage of black baseball players had fallen slightly, an outraged editorial entitled "A White Man's Place to Be" appeared in the New York Times. Warning of an imminent white takeover of the base paths, it expressed "renewed anxiety about the whiteness of players." It noted the sky-high black participation rates in other sports, then quoted a scout as predicting that "African Americans would soon disappear from the game."

 

In fact African Americans make up approximately 15 percent of top professionals, higher than their 13 percent of the general population. Americans so reflexively expect black domination that anything less than an NBA or NFL-sized black majority is taken as a sign of renewed discrimination -- against blacks. To invoke racism for a slight drop in the percentage of black players (the raw numbers have actually increased with expansion) shows how deeply the belief in black athletic superiority is ingrained in Americans, black and white.

 

The racial report card's numbers actually distort the racial trends. There are far more black players in baseball than ever before. Only 60 percent of Major League Baseball players are American-born whites, and the number is decreasing every year. Over the past twenty years, Hispanics, many of whom are black, have jumped from 8 to 24 percent of major leaguers. Today, well more than 40 percent of professional baseball players are black or Latin.

 

By the numbers, black Hispanic ballplayers are the most likely to make it to the big leagues, followed by players of mixed black and white heritage, then whites, with Mexicans (who, according to physical anthropologists, typically have shorter legs and are less muscular in the lower body than Caribbean blacks as a result of their Native Indian heritage) having the toughest time. The largely black Dominican Republic, which currently has more than seventy players in the major leagues, is a baseball hothouse.

 

Although the overall numbers of blacks in baseball do not approach those in football or basketball, the stars are disproportionately black. A "dream team" recently put together by USA Today sports writers included only one white among the position players. This phenomenon is not a recent development. In the fifty years since Jackie Robinson became the first black to be named Most Valuable Player (MVP), a black player has been chosen National League MVP thirty-two times. Since 1963, when Elston Howard of the New York Yankees became the first nonwhite named MVP in the American League, black players have won the honor eighteen times. A clear majority of MVP's are black. Whites are far more likely to be the marginal players filling out a roster.

 

Baseball historian Bill James, author of dozens of books on the statistical twists of his favorite sport, believes this trend is not a fluke. In an intriguing study conducted in 1987, he compared the careers of hundreds of rookies to figure out what qualities best predict who would develop into stars. He noted many intangible factors, such as whether a player stays fit or is just plain lucky. The best predictors of long-term career success included the age of the rookie, his defensive position as a determinant in future hitting success (e.g., catchers fare worse than outfielders), speed, and the quality of the player's team. But all of these factors paled when compared to the color of the player's skin.

 

"Nobody likes to write about race," James noted apologetically. "I thought I would do a [statistical] run of black players against white players, fully expecting that it would show nothing in particular or nothing beyond the outside range of chance, and I would file it away and never mention that I had looked at the issue at all."

 

James first compared fifty-four white rookies against the same number of black first-year players who had comparable statistics. "The results were astonishing," he wrote. The black players:

 

 

went on to have better major-league careers in 44 of the 54 cases

 

played 48 percent more games

 

had 66 percent more major-league hits

 

hit 93 percent more triples

 

hit 66 percent more home runs

 

scored 69 percent more runs

 

stole 400 percent more bases.

[Jerry Mumphrey]

^^^^^^^

Because most of the white rookies were pitchers. Good example of why one should never rely on cherry-picked statistics.