The Soccer Thread

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Can I get, admittedly, way, way ahead of myself?

 

The US should not settle for second place in the group (now, I don't think they'll be "settling" for second as I'd be thrilled to advance and England is a clear-cut favorite in the group). However, second place in the group will likely result in a first game with Germany. First place in the group likely will result in a matchup against Australia/Serbia/Ghana, all of whom would be beatable. Further, the next game would be against the Group A winner -- South Africa/Mexico/Uruguay/France. So the difference between first and second in the group could be the difference between playing Germany then Argentina or Australia then (a depleted) France.

 

Obviously, the gigantic premature caveats apply that (i) I'll be thrilled to advance again; and (ii) England will most assuredly win the group anyway, mooting post.

 

There's 4 teams in Group D that could advance, so I could easily see Germany not winning the group, even though they'll be a big favorite to advance.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Is anyone paying for the World Football Daily podcasts?

[wolf stansson]

Is anyone paying for the World Football Daily podcasts?

I'm going to. My debit card demagnetized and I'm waiting for my replacement. I don't have a credit card because I'm a child.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Is anyone paying for the World Football Daily podcasts?

I'm going to. My debit card demagnetized and I'm waiting for my replacement. I don't have a credit card because I'm a child.

 

Dammit, I was hoping to hear that you weren't so I wouldn't feel bad if I didn't sign up.

[wolf stansson]

Is anyone paying for the World Football Daily podcasts?

I'm going to. My debit card demagnetized and I'm waiting for my replacement. I don't have a credit card because I'm a child.

 

Dammit, I was hoping to hear that you weren't so I wouldn't feel bad if I didn't sign up.

I'm only doing it because I hate my job and have to have something help kill as much time as possible.

[USSoccer]

I'm really wondering why I keep reading that SA should be happy with that group.

 

They are going to finish dead last in that group. I would be stunned if they take points from anyone.

 

I'm really very pleased at our draw right now. When I saw England, I was really worried, but I don't see an easier group to have been a part of, really.

[bukie]

I'm really wondering why I keep reading that SA should be happy with that group.

 

They are going to finish dead last in that group. I would be stunned if they take points from anyone.

 

I'm really very pleased at our draw right now. When I saw England, I was really worried, but I don't see an easier group to have been a part of, really.

When half the weak teams are in your pot, there wasn't much better the US could have done with their draw. Maybe pull Italy or Argentina as a seed, but it's not awful to get the weakest teams from pots 3 and 4.

[USSoccer]

Okay, now that my daughter is asleep and I'm not at work, here's my .02c:

 

-Last time we played England, at Wembley, we marched this XI out:

 

------------Johnson----Wolff-------------

Beasley-----Bradley---Clark------Dempsey

Pearce------Boca----Onyewu---Cherundolo

-----------------Howard-----------------

 

4 of those guys won't be on the roster. That said:

 

England are just like us, only better. We're modeled after them in so many respects. They play high pressure, high workrate ball. Rooney will be a pain in the ass all 90. In 2008, our midfield couldn't contain theirs at all, and adding Jones isn't a panacea. A Capello-led England and it's midfield ripped apart a Germany midfield anchored by Jones last year. Remember, Jones is just a better Rico Clark. Lennon on the wing will be a nightmare for whoever's out there. If Bradley plays the Spain backline, assuming health, Boca will get murdered on the wing. Even if fully fit, England play on the ground so well with Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney. They could cut us to ribbons on the right day.

 

They will probably trot out:

 

------------Rooney----Heskey-------------

Gerrard-----Barry---Lampard------Lennon

Cole------Terry----Ferdinand---Johnson

-----------------James-----------------

 

Capello will have that team prepared. No team wants to drop points on Matchday 1. They won't overlook us. They also will be completely prepared for what we're likely to do: clog the middle, play for the counter and pinch the flanks in. However, with the XI we have, Bradley would be nuts to not do this. We could try a tactical wrinkle to throw them off in the first 15, but they're just better than us. This is one occasion where bunkering and playing defensively is the right one. Ashley Cole will leave space on his side with his constant wanderings. Glen Johnson is a very suspect RB. Their keepers-whoever it ends up being is immaterial-are shite. Rio is out of form as well. Bunker/Counter is probably the best tactic we could play-catch them once and we could knick a win, or put a shot on frame and have Robert Green cough it up for a tap in. Or Clint does what he does and finds a goal. If not, 0-0 or a low GD loss would be fine. What you don't want is to get smoked 3-0 or something like that. I'd go 4-4-2 (assuming Davies isn't back or Adu doesn't get some burn, and change Bradley's mind about him) with Clint up top so he can drop into a 4-5-1.

 

We won't be trotting Josh Wolff and fricking EJ out there up front. We'll have LD, so the 2008 result will be a bit misleading. We have 6 months to prep for this one. This will be Bradley's biggest test as a coach (obvious understatement) and it will show a lot about everything we've all argued and analyzed over the past cycle. Can he tactically adjust? Pick the right players? Prepare his team? FWIW, we looked good against Italy until the idiotic red card Clark picked up, and IIRC were even at 1-1 against Argentina in Copa America 2007 until the wheels came off with our C team in the 2nd half, so this *might* be an area he's decent at.

 

-Algeria are the weakest African side not named South Africa. They play like all North African teams do. They drew 0-0 with fricking Rwanda during qualifying. If we don't beat them in a similar fashion that we handled Egypt this summer, we don't deserve to advance.

 

-Slovenia are probably the weakest Euro side in the entire tournament. Very organized, defensive minded. Strong in the central mids physically and a tough backline. They have a great keeper. They actually use this to push forward and tend to get caught on the counter, but don't concede much. They are a bit like us in that they arent super technical but are real athletic. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This is the trap game in the group. We have terrible luck breaking down packed defenses in CONCACAF, and this side is better than a CONCACAF side. We'll probably have the best two field players on the field, barring injuries or cards, so that probably makes the difference.

 

I see us going:

 

0-2 v England

2-1 v Slovenia.

3-1 v Algeria

 

Although that could easily be a draw on MD 2 and come down to goal difference, which makes not getting our doors blown off by England quite key.

[Guest]

I've seen a couple things on Soccernet saying that South Africa should be happy with their draw and I don't really see how that's possible. They got one of the top couple teams in Pot 2 in Mexico and a team that's advanced out of their group five straight WC's that they were eligible to play in. They weren't going to get any African team from Pot 3 which left them with Paraguay, Uruguay and Chile and they didn't get Paraguay. And it Pot 4, they got stuck with one of the two teams that nobody wanted to get stuck with from that pot.

 

I just don't see how South Africa could have gotten a much harder group considering the cirucumstances. I mean sure, they should be happy in that they didn't have to go through qualification and didn't have to worry about getting stuck with one of the other seven seeds, but that was known once they received the hosting rights.

 

Going by the SPI rankings, SA got the second best team in each of the other three pots in their group. So yeah, they could have gotten Chile, US and Portugal instead, but that's not much different.

[CubbieBum]

Okay, now that my daughter is asleep and I'm not at work, here's my .02c:

 

-Last time we played England, at Wembley, we marched this XI out:

 

------------Johnson----Wolff-------------

Beasley-----Bradley---Clark------Dempsey

Pearce------Boca----Onyewu---Cherundolo

-----------------Howard-----------------

 

4 of those guys won't be on the roster. That said:

 

England are just like us, only better. We're modeled after them in so many respects. They play high pressure, high workrate ball. Rooney will be a pain in the ass all 90. In 2008, our midfield couldn't contain theirs at all, and adding Jones isn't a panacea. A Capello-led England and it's midfield ripped apart a Germany midfield anchored by Jones last year. Remember, Jones is just a better Rico Clark. Lennon on the wing will be a nightmare for whoever's out there. If Bradley plays the Spain backline, assuming health, Boca will get murdered on the wing. Even if fully fit, England play on the ground so well with Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney. They could cut us to ribbons on the right day.

 

They will probably trot out:

 

------------Rooney----Heskey-------------

Gerrard-----Barry---Lampard------Lennon

Cole------Terry----Ferdinand---Johnson

-----------------James-----------------

 

Capello will have that team prepared. No team wants to drop points on Matchday 1. They won't overlook us. They also will be completely prepared for what we're likely to do: clog the middle, play for the counter and pinch the flanks in. However, with the XI we have, Bradley would be nuts to not do this. We could try a tactical wrinkle to throw them off in the first 15, but they're just better than us. This is one occasion where bunkering and playing defensively is the right one. Ashley Cole will leave space on his side with his constant wanderings. Glen Johnson is a very suspect RB. Their keepers-whoever it ends up being is immaterial-are [expletive]. Rio is out of form as well. Bunker/Counter is probably the best tactic we could play-catch them once and we could knick a win, or put a shot on frame and have Robert Green cough it up for a tap in. Or Clint does what he does and finds a goal. If not, 0-0 or a low GD loss would be fine. What you don't want is to get smoked 3-0 or something like that. I'd go 4-4-2 (assuming Davies isn't back or Adu doesn't get some burn, and change Bradley's mind about him) with Clint up top so he can drop into a 4-5-1.

 

We won't be trotting Josh Wolff and fricking EJ out there up front. We'll have LD, so the 2008 result will be a bit misleading. We have 6 months to prep for this one. This will be Bradley's biggest test as a coach (obvious understatement) and it will show a lot about everything we've all argued and analyzed over the past cycle. Can he tactically adjust? Pick the right players? Prepare his team? FWIW, we looked good against Italy until the idiotic red card Clark picked up, and IIRC were even at 1-1 against Argentina in Copa America 2007 until the wheels came off with our C team in the 2nd half, so this *might* be an area he's decent at.

 

-Algeria are the weakest African side not named South Africa. They play like all North African teams do. They drew 0-0 with fricking Rwanda during qualifying. If we don't beat them in a similar fashion that we handled Egypt this summer, we don't deserve to advance.

 

-Slovenia are probably the weakest Euro side in the entire tournament. Very organized, defensive minded. Strong in the central mids physically and a tough backline. They have a great keeper. They actually use this to push forward and tend to get caught on the counter, but don't concede much. They are a bit like us in that they arent super technical but are real athletic. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This is the trap game in the group. We have terrible luck breaking down packed defenses in CONCACAF, and this side is better than a CONCACAF side. We'll probably have the best two field players on the field, barring injuries or cards, so that probably makes the difference.

 

I see us going:

 

0-2 v England

2-1 v Slovenia.

3-1 v Algeria

 

Although that could easily be a draw on MD 2 and come down to goal difference, which makes not getting our doors blown off by England quite key.

 

I agree England is the better team especially up front and in the midfield but you make it sound as if we got no shot. To me we are a wild card team. We have never zeroed in on a lineup. Some of them have been bad and some have been good. The back and forth level of play due to that has hurt our ranking and the overall opinion of how good we are. However, if we do get the right lineup together (your guess is as good as mine) I think we got as much talent and potential as anyone. Your post comes off as play for the tie because that's the best we can hope for. I think that would be foolish.

[USSoccer]

 

I agree England is the better team especially up front and in the midfield but you make it sound as if we got no shot. To me we are a wild card team. We have never zeroed in on a lineup. Some of them have been bad and some have been good. The back and forth level of play due to that has hurt our ranking and the overall opinion of how good we are. However, if we do get the right lineup together (your guess is as good as mine) I think we got as much talent and potential as anyone. Your post comes off as play for the tie because that's the best we can hope for. I think that would be foolish.

 

You're completely wrong. Our ranking (according to ELO and Voros) have been relatively steady over the last couple years. Our first choice XI is pretty clear as well. We're not some wild card team filled with unknown quantities. We have an identifiable style of play and players that opponents are going to know they have to key on. We're going to clog the middle with Bradley and whoever, soak up pressure and then counter through Altidore, Dempsey and Donovan.

 

Furthermore, bunker/counter is a completely valid tactic to play. The worst thing we could to is try to play England straight up. They'd beat us handily, and put us in a goal differential hole that I'd rather not attempt to climb out of. Bunker/counter plays to our strengths and zeros in on areas where England can be attacked. It's not as simple as "playing for the tie". It's "giving yourselves the best shot at a result". This isn't Honduras at Soldier Field or some friendly against Mexico where you can play teams straight up and gauge how your side is progressing. This is a very short tournament that's not going to forgive stupid tactical decisions.

 

Algeria and Slovenia, yeah, whatever, play them straight up because we're probably better technically and definitely better athletically, but England, again, is a much better version of us.

[bukie]

Just watched a replay of the live draw, and besides being a pretty ridiculous 3 hour spectacle for a 15 minute process, did anyone else's heart skip a beat when they pulled Ivory Coast second out of Pot 3, after assigning Nigeria to Group B? I hadn't picked up on the fact they were placing African teams with CONMEBOL seeds first, not just going down the line, and that would have put Ivory Coast in with the US-England group.

[USSoccer]

Just watched a replay of the live draw, and besides being a pretty ridiculous 3 hour spectacle for a 15 minute process, did anyone else's heart skip a beat when they pulled Ivory Coast second out of Pot 3, after assigning Nigeria to Group B? I hadn't picked up on the fact they were placing African teams with CONMEBOL seeds first, not just going down the line, and that would have put Ivory Coast in with the US-England group.

 

No, same thing happened to me watching the FIFA.com app at work. I was shocked when they weren't dumped in our group.

[shnsajax]

Time to get Landon over in Europe.

[USSoccer]

Time to get Landon over in Europe.

 

I actually think a decent argument can be made for him to stay in MLS until the summer transfer window. That way he's coming into form right around June instead of ending the spring Euro season possibly worn down.

 

EDIT:

 

Adu sure seemed sure he was going to get some burn but ended up left on the bench again. That guy needs out of Europe. Come back to MLS and get ready for next cycle.

[wolf stansson]

New York have the new stadium, they need attacking players and Adu needs to come home. Sounds perfect to me. Done and done. Now that that's taken care of, let's look at the England matchup.

 

I agree completely with USS tactically. We've got some wrinkles and atypical players we can throw at England because we have some South and Central American flavor (in very small doses mind you) with players like Deuce and Benny but for the most part, we play and have always played a very English style. That doesn't necessarily play into England's hands historically given their struggles with Germany who play similarly, but this isn't a typical English side in that Fabio Capello is the best manager they've had, maybe ever. In the past England have overlooked teams, they've overrated themselves and they've paid for that over confidence. I don't think Capello allows that. If I'm betting, I'd lay money on a 2-1 England win. There are many reasons. Talent, experience, management, intimidation and going off the 2-0 win against us two years previous to our upcoming match. The 2-0 score line doesn't tell the whole story; it was worse than that. That was as comprehensive a loss as I've seen as a US fan. We were dominated so badly it honestly looked like men against boys.

 

Now having said all that, I'm going to tell you why we can get points out of this game.

 

First and foremost, this game is not in Wembley Stadium. I've never seen a more intimidated side than our team that day. They were over-awed by the atmosphere, the building itself, the fans, the global icons on the other side, the three lions on their shirts and it showed. Boy did it show. I've no doubts that England are the more talented side, but the disparity isn't nearly as large as that game would have you believe. This isn't in their venerable home ground. This is in South Africa. A venue we are far, far more familiar and comfortable in. A venue that they haven't experienced. With our two countries buying the most tickets to this World Cup, I feel this will be as close to a neutral site as we'll ever find against the likes of England. While the EPL's global popularity usually means a significant neutral population will lean English, judging by the warmth and goodwill that the South African fans displayed towards our boys last summer, I don't think that will be the case in our game.

 

Secondly, we were without Landon and Jozy. Our talisman and our only healthy striker that at any moment, can potentially make something out of nothing against a better side. With Jozy it's a moment like the goal against Spain where he, with his sheer physical superiority, shook off Capdevilla like a rag doll, turned and finished the goal that changed the game. Terry and Rio are icons, but it doesn't matter who is marking Jozy, there is always a chance that in that situation he has something they don't. Whether it's his strength, his up's or his speed. He's got weapons in his arsenal that even the best center backs don't. If they did, they'd be big, tall and strong center forwards like him. I'm not saying Jozy is the kind of Drogbaesque player that is going to impose his will on whoever he meets quite yet, but if there is a situation that presents itself, it's always possible for him to do something special.

 

With Landon, it's everything he brings to the table. Like I said, I agree with USS's desire to bunker and counter for all the reasons he mentioned and because it happens to suit our best player's game well. First and foremost Landon Donovan is our most important player. For all his strengths and weaknesses of which there are many, we are a different team when he isn't out there. Not only is his pace, vision and skill absolute class, but his leadership has developed into something that matters as well. So like I said, Landon is important to us no matter who the opponent or the setting. But when you're playing a team that is just flat better than you and you make the smart choice to defend, clog the field and look for the counter like we did against Spain, like we did against Brazil, there are few players in the world better suited to lead your team than Landon Donovan. It plays into his strengths perfectly. He's positionally smart on defense. He tracks back. Most importantly his skills and speed make him a deadly counter attacker. If you have to play tactically in a way that allows few chances for the opponents and yourself you need three things. 1) a good keeper, 2) an organized back line and 3) players that can create chances on the counter attack and when they do, miss very few of those chances. Landon and Charlie Davies are our two players who best embody those traits. Since we have no Charlie, well, it's Landon.

 

I want to be careful about how I say this, because I am in no way saying Landon is a better player than the likes of Wayne Rooney, Frank Lampard or Steven Gerrard. What I'm saying is that in a game like this, he is the more important player. He is uniquely skilled in this very scenario, so while it's always important that he shows up to play and that Bob tactically puts him in an effective role, it is absolutely crucial in this matchup.

 

If we stay organized like we know we can based on the Spain win in South Africa or the Argentina draw three weeks removed from the Wembley debacle, if Landon creates chances on the counter and if we can get some patented Clint Dempsey moments of unpredictably executed genius, we could catch England off guard enough to score a goal or two. If our defense and midfield stay organized, we could pull it out and it wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what happened. None of their keepers can hold a line, their world renowned center backs no longer meet their reputation's level whether it's due to age or injury and both of their outside fullbacks are known for wandering forward at bad times leaving them vulnerable to a counter attack. Our skills on the counter and our skills on the set pieces are going to be critical, but a win isn't a pipe dream, merely unlikely.

[wolf stansson]

Two more things. I didn't know I had ESPN 360. I do, and it's the best thing ever. I'm watching Bayern v Monchengladbach and Mikey B's Xavi-like assist.

 

Also, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Capello pulls Becks aside and explains to him that he won't play against us because Landon would spend 90 minutes killing him up and down the flank.

[USSoccer]

Two more things. I didn't know I had ESPN 360. I do, and it's the best thing ever. I'm watching Bayern v Monchengladbach and Mikey B's Xavi-like assist.

 

Also, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Capello pulls Becks aside and explains to him that he won't play against us because Landon would spend 90 minutes killing him up and down the flank.

 

That was a sweet pass. Did you get to the part where Gladbach's coach took Mikey out and yelled at him for losing his temper?

 

I'd love it if hubris caused Capello to use Goldenballs in that game. We'd so, so eat him up alive.

[wolf stansson]

Yeah he went a little Roy Keane on Muller with that "tackle."

[USSoccer]

Yeah he went a little Roy Keane on Muller with that "tackle."

 

One thing that Bradley and staff need to impart upon our boys over the course of the next few months is how damn important it is going to be to not draw any unnecessary cards.

 

This summer, Clark's cost us a likely point v Italy, and Mikey's (questionable) against Spain cost us the final. Mikey needs to find a way to keep the Keano-esque edge but avoid the red mist that he tends towards.

 

Wolf, thoughts on Landon playing overseas in the Spring or staying in MLS?

 

EDIT: England's central defense is going to be an issue for them. Best case, Rio finds fitness and form after this long layoff, but I'm thinking the sun is setting on his best days. Ditto for "Brave" John Terry, who I can't stand and think is an overrated douche. Who backs them up? Hargreaves might as well be dead. Lescott kind of sucks. Ledley King has no knees, or else he'd be streets better than all three. Wayne Bridge? Meh. I this Wes Brown is underrated but if they have to play him, it's a big, big win for us.

 

I actually hope Frank Lampard, apart from our game, has a good World Cup. For some reason I feel he's the least douche-y Lion. Just scores 20 league goals, isn't really flashy, doesn't talk a bunch of ish, doesn't get sent off, doesn't get into drunken barfights, isn't Beckham, isn't a complete clownbag asshat like Ashley Cole...just a solid player.

 

DOUBLE EDIT: The corpse of DMB played for 'Gers today. I hope to hell that he doesn't start showing signs, lest Bradley think his speed and experience could help contain Lennon and SWP and decide to give him another shot at the NT.

[wolf stansson]

I'd think the wings are set at this point with Landon and Clint.

 

 

 

I think Landon's going on loan this January and much like last year, they'll see where it goes from there. His price tag is just too high for a team to pay up front without knowing what he can do for them first hand. I'd prefer Landon gets to Europe. I don't think being active in MLS will do all that much for him form-wise. Yeah he may be in better game shape, but conditioning has never been a problem for Landon. His mentality has. That's why Europe is a gamble. If he fails, it could be disastrous for his form in South Africa, but if he succeeds (which I think he will), he could have a huge Cup.

[USSoccer]

I'd think the wings are set at this point with Landon and Clint.

 

 

 

I think Landon's going on loan this January and much like last year, they'll see where it goes from there. His price tag is just too high for a team to pay up front without knowing what he can do for them first hand. I'd prefer Landon gets to Europe. I don't think being active in MLS will do all that much for him form-wise. Yeah he may be in better game shape, but conditioning has never been a problem for Landon. His mentality has. That's why Europe is a gamble. If he fails, it could be disastrous for his form in South Africa, but if he succeeds (which I think he will), he could have a huge Cup.

 

The DMB comment was meant more at preventing him from being on the 23 period, not supplanting CD or LD. I want him nowhere near South Africa.

 

I see your point about Landon, but he needs to find the right European fit, not just go for the sake of going.

[USSoccer]

Rumors abound that Stu Holden is going to end up at Rangers.

 

I don't want him at Rangers. If he gets hurt no one will ever see him again. I think it was Reyna that said the most advanced piece of equipment in their physio room was an electric tea kettle.

[wolf stansson]

Rumors abound that Stu Holden is going to end up at Rangers.

 

I don't want him at Rangers. If he gets hurt no one will ever see him again. I think it was Reyna that said the most advanced piece of equipment in their physio room was an electric tea kettle.

The word is that they are looking at a bunch of American players including Holden, Rogers and Landon. It's going around that they are really loving the idea of getting the most for the little money they have and that they believe American players are the best place for them to find talent that can step right with the physicality and effort required to play in the SPL. As far as I'm concerned they are 100% right. You aren't going to get the value for your money in Europe, Africans, South and Central Americans adapt poorly to the weather and brute tackling and as we know here in American soccer, bad weather and bad tackling are abundant.

[wolf stansson]

So next year's friendlies are: Holland in Amsterdam, Honduras in LA and Northern Ireland in tbd.

 

Honduras and Northern Ireland are head scratchers. I'd prefer a Northern African side like Morocco, an Eastern European side like Croatia or an Englandesque team like Scotland.

 

On the whole though, our fixture list has improved mightily under Bradley.

 

Off the top of my head, he's played Argentina x2, England (away), Spain x2 (away), Mexico x whatever, Brazil, Egypt (away), Italy (away), Switzerland (away), Poland (away), Slovakia (away), Denmark (away) and Sweden x2.