2B in 2007

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

[C.C.]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Honestly, that's the first time I've heard that Defense means very little in baseball. In fact it's crazy. You can go back to the 2004 Red Sox when they upgraded their defense they went on to a WS title. Defense is hugely important! I can't believe you really believe that?

 

yeah, because that red sox team was TERRIBLE until they got doug m and cabrera.

 

I didn't say terrible, but why would the Red Sox upgrade their defense if you people don't think it's important...

[CubColtPacer]

Their pitching may have had a lot to do with it.

 

True, but the stats say that Cleveland should have beaten the White Sox out. They had the same ERA, and scored 49 more runs then the Sox (which was good for 7th in the league-the White Sox finished 13th). If it was a minor thing or not, something happened to give the White Sox ways to win last season-it might have just been luck-but there was certainly something there.

[Pickle]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

[C.C.]

Hmmm...Could it be the defense? Maybe?

[CubColtPacer]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

[Chocolate Milk]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

 

Walker leaves the lineup too.

[C.C.]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

 

I'm with you. I really think I'm in the twilight zone today on this board. I can't believe the outrage that Izzy is getting on this board. Now people are saying that Defense matters very little in baseball? Huh?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Then why did they trade to upgrade their defense if defense doesn't matter much?

 

They had the market cornered on offense. They were an amazing offensive team. They knew they were losing Nomar, and Cabrera was available. And you're over-estimating the impact that Mientkiewicz had on the team. He was mainly a late inning defensive replacement. Millar (and his 297/383/474) was the regular 1B.

[C.C.]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

 

Can you imagine our pitching without a decent defense? Yikes!

[CubColtPacer]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

 

I'd question the people that say we have one of the top 10 defenses-only because I can't think of one player on the roster who has played most everyday who I can call good defensively, and there are more people who are below average or average than below average. People have been calling out the outfield defense all year as average to below average, and the infield defense without Lee is not exactly stellar.

[Chocolate Milk]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

 

I'd question the people that say we have one of the top 10 defenses-only because I can't think of one player on the roster who has played most everyday who I can call good defensively, and there are more people who are below average or average than below average. People have been calling out the outfield defense all year as average to below average, and the infield defense without Lee is not exactly stellar.

 

That should tell you how subjective defense is.

[CubColtPacer]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

 

Walker leaves the lineup too.

 

True, but he was not needed for the next 2 months anyway. If we want to sign him for 2007, we can do it just as well from another team. If we don't, then the offense will be no worse off in 2007 then it would be if we let him walk after the season. It doesn't matter if our offense gets worse in the final two months of the season right now.

[C.C.]

I don't see why the Cubs need to improve their defense, which is one of the 5-10 best in baseball, at the expense of their offense, which is one of the worst in baseball.

 

How did they downgrade their offense by switching from Cedeno to Izturis at short? That one move alone does not downgrade their offense-it actually upgrades it.

 

Walker leaves the lineup too.

 

True, but he was not needed for the next 2 months anyway. If we want to sign him for 2007, we can do it just as well from another team. If we don't, then the offense will be no worse off in 2007 then it would be if we let him walk after the season. It doesn't matter if our offense gets worse in the final two months of the season right now.

 

Let's not forget we haven't had a healthy Lee just about the whole year.

[CubColtPacer]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

 

I'd question the people that say we have one of the top 10 defenses-only because I can't think of one player on the roster who has played most everyday who I can call good defensively, and there are more people who are below average or average than below average. People have been calling out the outfield defense all year as average to below average, and the infield defense without Lee is not exactly stellar.

 

That should tell you how subjective defense is.

 

Agreed, but if we have a good defense as you said, where is it coming from? What players are good defenders to create this good defense?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Their pitching may have had a lot to do with it.

 

True, but the stats say that Cleveland should have beaten the White Sox out. They had the same ERA, and scored 49 more runs then the Sox (which was good for 7th in the league-the White Sox finished 13th). If it was a minor thing or not, something happened to give the White Sox ways to win last season-it might have just been luck-but there was certainly something there.

 

Cleveland was not very good the first half of the season while the Sox were red hot. The Indians went on a tear the 2nd half while the Sox came back down to earth a bit. They were 4 over 500 and 15 back on 8/1, and improved to 15 over and 7.5 back on 9/1 and 24 over and only 6 back by season's end.

[USSoccer]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

Where exactly were the White Sox great defensively? Podsednik was terrible in LF. Roward is good, Dye is good. Crede is good. Uribe is okay, Iguchi is okay, and Konerko is a statue. Pierzinski is okay. You had 3 plus defenders on that team. They didn't exactly have Ozzie Smith and Ryne Sandberg in the middle IF defensively.

 

The reason they were champs is because they played in a weak division and built up an insurmountable lead that Cleveland couldn't make up despite a second half tear. They got career pitching performances out of Garland and Buehrle, Politte and Hermanson (before he got hurt), and had Jenks come in and be lights out. In the playoffs, their starters were unhittable.

 

Their defense probably had about 15% to do with their title.

 

In 2004 Garciaparra was god-awful at SS and the went out and got a defensive upgrade in Cabrera. Still, their starting lineup featured 3 guys in Bellhorn, Ramirez and Nixon who might as well play 16 inch softball-they're terrible defenders. Varitek isn't a great defensive C. Mueller is decent at 3B but not great, and Damon isn't a great defensive CF.

 

THEY won because they had 2 amazing offensive players surrounded by a supporting cast who could get on base, and had 2 really good starters and a good bullpen. Not because Doug Eyechart and Orlando Cabrera were plus defenders, but because they outscored people.

Edited August 1, 2006 by USSoccer

[Chocolate Milk]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

 

I'd question the people that say we have one of the top 10 defenses-only because I can't think of one player on the roster who has played most everyday who I can call good defensively, and there are more people who are below average or average than below average. People have been calling out the outfield defense all year as average to below average, and the infield defense without Lee is not exactly stellar.

 

That should tell you how subjective defense is.

 

Agreed, but if we have a good defense as you said, where is it coming from? What players are good defenders to create this good defense?

 

If the defense has preformed well and you can't tell who the good defensive players are, what does that tell you about defense?

[C.C.]

Podsednik was terrible in LF. Roward is good, Dye is good. Crede is good. Uribe is okay, Iguchi is okay, and Konerko is a statue. Pierzinski is okay.

 

Crede is more then just good. He's one of the best 3rd basemen in the league. Uribe and Iguchi are more then just okay up the middle. They are one of the best up the middle combos in the league. Roward is a very good CF and Dye is Good at right. AJ is a above average catcher and PK at first has vastly improved his D the last couple of years.

[CubColtPacer]

"Defense means very, very, very little in baseball. Pitching and hitting."

 

Tell that to the White Sox who won a WS on Pitching and Defense. Their team BA was .262 with a .322 OBP and yet they managed to win a WS.

 

they hit a crapload of homers.

 

True..but they had 200 HR to our 194. They had a .262 AVG with a .322 OPB while we had a .270 AVG with a .324 OBP. So what was the difference between the two teams offensively?

 

The difference must be in the clutch hitting because defense means very, very, very little.

 

Yeah, that or exceptional pitching. I'll go with the pitching myself.

 

You don't think that the defense had anything to do with that?

 

I don't think it had much to do with it, no.

 

How's our good defense working out with our pitching this year?

 

I'd question the people that say we have one of the top 10 defenses-only because I can't think of one player on the roster who has played most everyday who I can call good defensively, and there are more people who are below average or average than below average. People have been calling out the outfield defense all year as average to below average, and the infield defense without Lee is not exactly stellar.

 

That should tell you how subjective defense is.

 

Agreed, but if we have a good defense as you said, where is it coming from? What players are good defenders to create this good defense?

 

If the defense has preformed well and you can't tell who the good defensive players are, what does that tell you about defense?

 

Well, there's the flaw. I don't think our defense has performed that well at all-we probably should be between 15th-20th defensively.

[USSoccer]

Podsednik was terrible in LF. Roward is good, Dye is good. Crede is good. Uribe is okay, Iguchi is okay, and Konerko is a statue. Pierzinski is okay.

 

Crede is more then just good. He's one of the best 3rd basemen in the league. Uribe and Iguchi are more then just okay up the middle. They are one of the best up the middle combos in the league. Roward is a very good CF and Dye is Good at right. AJ is a above average catcher and PK at first has vastly improved his D the last couple of years.

 

I completely disagree with your opinions on Iguchi, AJP and especially Konerko. Konerko is bloody terrible at 1B. And you didn't bother to refute my assesment of why they won the World Series.

 

Defense had much less to do with it than the average fan thinks.

[Chocolate Milk]

Podsednik was terrible in LF. Roward is good, Dye is good. Crede is good. Uribe is okay, Iguchi is okay, and Konerko is a statue. Pierzinski is okay.

 

Crede is more then just good. He's one of the best 3rd basemen in the league. Uribe and Iguchi are more then just okay up the middle. They are one of the best up the middle combos in the league. Roward is a very good CF and Dye is Good at right. AJ is a above average catcher and PK at first has vastly improved his D the last couple of years.

 

What is this based on?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Podsednik was terrible in LF. Roward is good, Dye is good. Crede is good. Uribe is okay, Iguchi is okay, and Konerko is a statue. Pierzinski is okay.

 

Crede is more then just good. He's one of the best 3rd basemen in the league. Uribe and Iguchi are more then just okay up the middle. They are one of the best up the middle combos in the league. Roward is a very good CF and Dye is Good at right. AJ is a above average catcher and PK at first has vastly improved his D the last couple of years.

 

What is this based on?

 

Joe Morgan, Tim McCarver, Kevin Kennedy, Hawk Harrelson...

[Chocolate Milk]

Well, there's the flaw. I don't think our defense has performed that well at all-we probably should be between 15th-20th defensively.

 

Well, if we're judging defense by purely subjective measures, wouldn't you agree that it would be difficult to judge it's effect?

 

I could say that the Cubs have the best defense in MLB. How would you refute that? By saying "Nuh uh?"

 

We need to focus on concrete known issues like our lack of OBP and SLG. Izturis doesn't provide any of these things. That's why it's a bad trade.