Izturis/Furcal and Cedeno/Walker

[Caryatid]

I agree. At least Izturis hits .250 better than neifi.

 

Both have the potential to be .280 hitters with great defense next year, thats solid for middle infield.

 

2006 numbers:

 

Perez: .256 avg

Izturis: .252 avg

 

Perez: .625 OPS

Izturis: .655 OPS

 

Career numbers:

 

Perez: .270, .678

Izturis: .260, .634

 

 

It looks to me like Neifi is actually BETTER than Izturis. Which is the saddest thing I've ever written.

 

Those numbers are extremely skewed though. Izturis is 26 years old where most of his major league numbers came when he was 21, 22, and 23. He had his best year when he was 24, was mentioned as an MVP candidate at the end of May last year, and then got hurt and went into a major tailspin before they finally shut him down. This season's numbers mean almost nothing-he has had only something like 120 AB's after coming back from injury. Give him some time, he might come back to 2004 numbers or better.

 

His minor league numbers weren't much better: .271, .662. I think we've seen what we're going to see with him, and it ain't pretty.

[Captain Barnicle]

Those numbers are extremely skewed though. Izturis is 26 years old where most of his major league numbers came when he was 21, 22, and 23. He had his best year when he was 24, was mentioned as an MVP candidate at the end of May last year, and then got hurt and went into a major tailspin before they finally shut him down. This season's numbers mean almost nothing-he has had only something like 120 AB's after coming back from injury. Give him some time, he might come back to 2004 numbers or better.

 

I've had enough of "lets hope that he returns to form" type players!

[sethuel1]

was mentioned as an MVP candidate

 

whaaa?

[littleburr24]

Cesar Izturis may be one of the better defensive SS in the game today, but he is absolutely awful offensively. Combine his .633 career OPS with Ronny Cedeno's .614 OPS this year and you have one of the worst Offensive Middle Infields in the history of the game.

 

 

And in 2005, we potentially could've had the best offensive middle infield with Nomar and Walker.

[CUBZ99]

Hendry just stated that Izturis has been playing great this year. Unbelievable.

[Drew Doughty]

Cesar Izturis may be one of the better defensive SS in the game today, but he is absolutely awful offensively. Combine his .633 career OPS with Ronny Cedeno's .614 OPS this year and you have one of the worst Offensive Middle Infields in the history of the game.

 

 

And in 2005, we potentially could've had the best offensive middle infield with Nomar and Walker.

 

Wasn't there an article on ESPN that said the Cubs could have one of the best offensive infields ever if they acquired Soriano?

[CubColtPacer]

was mentioned as an MVP candidate

 

whaaa?

 

You don't remember that? Last year, at the end of May, Izturis was a top 3 MVP candidate. I remember distinctly because we played the Dodgers, and Izturis was mentioned as one of the candidates at that time. He was batting about .341 or so, was leading the major leagues in hits, and of course his great defense at short. Then of course he got hurt and continued to play, and had one of the worst June's that the game has ever seen-but at the end of 2 months, Cesar was up in that range.

[badger1679666666]

Hendry just stated that Izturis has been playing great this year. Unbelievable.

 

Hendry is a brain-dead pile of crap.

[Guest]

was mentioned as an MVP candidate

 

whaaa?

 

You don't remember that? Last year, at the end of May, Izturis was a top 3 MVP candidate. I remember distinctly because we played the Dodgers, and Izturis was mentioned as one of the candidates at that time. He was batting about .341 or so, was leading the major leagues in hits, and of course his great defense at short. Then of course he got hurt and continued to play, and had one of the worst June's that the game has ever seen-but at the end of 2 months, Cesar was up in that range.

Through the end of may last year...

 

1) Derrek Lee was in another stratosphere of production with absolutely crazy numbers. Easy MVP selection above everyone else.

 

but...

 

2) Pujols already had 25 HR and a crazy good OPS

 

3) Miguel Cabrera was hitting over .350 with an OBP of around .445. He also had 39 runs and 43 RBI in those two months.

 

There were a whole bunch of other guys like Delgado, Helton, Bay, Junior and so forth that were putting up good numbers through that time, as well.

 

If someone were pitching Cesar as a top 3 MVP candidate at the time, they were either just aggrandizing to entertain the viewers or they were smoking something.

[CubColtPacer]

was mentioned as an MVP candidate

 

whaaa?

 

You don't remember that? Last year, at the end of May, Izturis was a top 3 MVP candidate. I remember distinctly because we played the Dodgers, and Izturis was mentioned as one of the candidates at that time. He was batting about .341 or so, was leading the major leagues in hits, and of course his great defense at short. Then of course he got hurt and continued to play, and had one of the worst June's that the game has ever seen-but at the end of 2 months, Cesar was up in that range.

Through the end of may last year...

 

1) Derrek Lee was in another stratosphere of production with absolutely crazy numbers. Easy MVP selection above everyone else.

 

but...

 

2) Pujols already had 25 HR and a crazy good OPS

 

3) Miguel Cabrera was hitting over .350 with an OBP of around .445. He also had 39 runs and 43 RBI in those two months.

 

There were a whole bunch of other guys like Delgado, Helton, Bay, Junior and so forth that were putting up good numbers through that time, as well.

 

If someone were pitching Cesar as a top 3 MVP candidate at the time, they were either just aggrandizing to entertain the viewers or they were smoking something.

 

Pujols only had 12 HR last year at the end of May, not 25. Were you maybe thinking of this year?

Also, if Izturis had pushed those same stats out to a whole year, his numbers would have been very similar to Ichiro's MVP campaign. He probably wouldn't have won it, but he certainly would have been considered a candidate.

[katway]

I would rather have Izturis over any other short stop you name.

 

Tejada

 

And "light-hitting" Walker? If you think Walker/Cedeno was light-hitting, wait until you see Cedeno/Izturis.

Dude. I didnt say Cedeno was light hitting.... Walker was tho... i mean he only has about 45 rbi and we are 100+ games into the season. There is no reason he shouldnt have at least 55 or 60 rbi. Cedeno is a kid and this is his first full season in the bigs... so I expected him to have a rough go of it. As for Tejada. I dont think he will go anywhere until his contract is up and he is 36. would I like to be wrong on that thought??? You bet... I would love to see him roming at short or even 2nd or 3rd but I dont think he will be any time soon.

 

One very simple reason is that no one on this team gets on base. How can he drive in the non-existent runner?

[nilodnayr]

My God, this thread makes me so happy that I haven't had the time to come here very often this season...I'm still waiting to hear CubColt and dvdd say they were just joking... I thought the line about Walker being light hitting (especially when talking about Cedeno) was surely an overt key to display sarcasm. And Izturis MVP at the end of May? I've never heard of MVP talk in May #1, #2 Neifi was probably hitting 300 at the end of May (ok he wasnt but he was close), should he have been MVP? 2 months of decent hitting vs 8 years of suckitude.

 

Unless this team plans to get Webb, Lowe, Wang, and Westbrook, I can't see how this isn't a debilitating move.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Dont get me wrong. I would rather have Furcal. But since that wont happen anytime soon... I would rather have Izturis over any other short stop you name.

 

With the moves today its almost guarenteed that Cedeno will move to second. Simply because of his potential to be a big bat... I would rather have him at second than the light hitting Walker.

 

What do you guys think?

 

What...so you think Cedeno will become a better hitter for power than Walker? Seriously? Excuse me....but I'm having a hard time typing because I can't stop laughing....This year Walker had his lowest SLG% in 7 years at 390. I'd be surprised if Cedeno surpasses that mark more than twice in his career. I'm almost certain that when their careers are over, Cedeno will come no where close to Walker's 437 SLG. I'd have no doubt that Cedeno won't get anywhere near Walker's career 347 OBP. Cedeno may surpass Walker defensively, but his offense will pale in comparison.

[CubColtPacer]

My God, this thread makes me so happy that I haven't had the time to come here very often this season...I'm still waiting to hear CubColt and dvdd say they were just joking... I thought the line about Walker being light hitting (especially when talking about Cedeno) was surely an overt key to display sarcasm. And Izturis MVP at the end of May? I've never heard of MVP talk in May #1, #2 Neifi was probably hitting 300 at the end of May (ok he wasnt but he was close), should he have been MVP? 2 months of decent hitting vs 8 years of suckitude.

 

Unless this team plans to get Webb, Lowe, Wang, and Westbrook, I can't see how this isn't a debilitating move.

 

I'm not saying Izturis is this great hitter. What I am saying is that to compare him with Neifi and Cedeno is unfair. He had a decent season for a shortstop in 2004. He was playing great in 2005, and yes he was mentioned for MVP-hitting .348 and leading the majors in total hits is pretty decent. He played hurt, had the awful month of June, and went under the knife. Since then, he's only had a little over 100 at bats to show what he can do. He doesn't even have to return to anywhere near 2005 pre-injury form, he just needs to return to 2004 (which is certainly possible-he was only 24 at the time, next year he'll be 27 and moving into his prime, which has been delayed slightly by the injury), he can become an average shortstop offensively. If he does that, then he will be immensely valuable because of his stellar defense at one of the positions that defense has a higher value at. Really, am I alone in thinking that he can return to the stats of a year in which he was 24 that he was doing better than in 2005 before his injury?

[Balsa]

I would make a case for Julio Lugo over Izturis, in that case.

 

So did the Dodgers.

Hilarious.

[dvdd127]

umm.. I was comparing Izturis to Furcal... and Walker to Cedeno... someone else compared Izturis to Cedeno and I commented on it.

[ConstableRabbit]

Cesar Izturis may be one of the better defensive SS in the game today, but he is absolutely awful offensively. Combine his .633 career OPS with Ronny Cedeno's .614 OPS this year and you have one of the worst Offensive Middle Infields in the history of the game.

 

 

And in 2005, we potentially could've had the best offensive middle infield with Nomar and Walker.

 

Wasn't there an article on ESPN that said the Cubs could have one of the best offensive infields ever if they acquired Soriano?

 

Yes. I drooled.

[A New Era]

Cesar Izturis may be one of the better defensive SS in the game today, but he is absolutely awful offensively. Combine his .633 career OPS with Ronny Cedeno's .614 OPS this year and you have one of the worst Offensive Middle Infields in the history of the game.

 

 

And in 2005, we potentially could've had the best offensive middle infield with Nomar and Walker.

 

Wasn't there an article on ESPN that said the Cubs could have one of the best offensive infields ever if they acquired Soriano?

 

Yes. I drooled.

 

With Soriano at 2B, and Garciaparra at SS, they would need to be the best offensive IF ever.

[soapy]

So you were discussing realistically available names and not guys like A-Rod, Jeter, BJ Upton, and so on, correct?

 

I would make a case for Julio Lugo over Izturis, in that case.

yes... realistically available names. As for Lugo I dont consider him a realistic option... because there was never a reliable rumor that had him coming to the Cubs.

 

But that's not what you said:

 

Dont get me wrong. I would rather have Furcal. But since that wont happen anytime soon... I would rather have Izturis over any other short stop you name.

[Lefty]

I agree. At least Izturis hits .250 better than neifi.

 

Both have the potential to be .280 hitters with great defense next year, thats solid for middle infield.

 

2006 numbers:

 

Perez: .256 avg

Izturis: .252 avg

 

Perez: .625 OPS

Izturis: .655 OPS

 

Career numbers:

 

Perez: .270, .678

Izturis: .260, .634

 

 

It looks to me like Neifi is actually BETTER than Izturis. Which is the saddest thing I've ever written.

 

Relax. Neifi played a lot of games in Denver, Izturis in Dodger Stadium. That explains the statistical discrepancy. It doesn't explain, however, how Hendry thinks a lineup with both Cedeno and Izturis can possibly win anything.

 

Forget Moneyball, all businesses have deveoped processes to become more efficient. Using new knowledge to better their product and performance. But God bless 'em, not our Cubs!