Maddux and $$$ to the Dodgers for Cesar Izturis

[minnesotacubsfan]

Here's my take on Maddux:

 

1) Considering that it's almost August 1st and we're more than halfway through the season, I'd have to believe Maddux has taught guys like Marmol, Marshall, Guzman, and Ryu a fair amount by now. Maybe he hasn't taught them everything he knows, but he's likely taught them enough to last them a lifetime during these past months. With only two months left to go in the season, how much more can Maddux really teach these guys?

 

2) While I appreciate the job Maddux has done with these younger pitchers...it should fall on the pitching coach to be the main source of help and coaching for these guys. You hear them all talk about how helpful Maddux has been, but how often do you hear them talk the world of Larry Rothschild? Shouldn't Larry be the one teaching these guys more than Maddux? Doesn't that just speak really poorly for Larry, or am I missing something?

 

3) The Cubs are incredibly far out of contention. There's no bleeping way they're going to make the playoffs this year, much less get to .500. From here on out, the only reason veterans will get playing time over promising rookies is for the coaching staff to pad its resume. Unfortunately for guys like Hill, Ryu, and Guzman, Maddux is taking up a spot in the rotation that could be valuable for their development time. While Maddux's coaching can definitely help them, the best way for them to learn is through experience.

 

4) If it's true that teams like the Padres, Giants, and Dodgers are after Maddux and are willing to fork over a good prospect or two for him, why not trade him? This organization lacks position prospects who could seriously vie for a starting spot out of spring training next season. Pie's got a bright future, but he needs more time in AAA to work on his plate discipline and base stealing. Theriot, Fontenot, Hoffpauir, and McGehee could all end up being good bench guys, but they are nowhere near the level of guys like LaRoche, Kemp, and Kottaras. We all know how much help this offense needs, so why not address it?

 

5) Along that same vein, one of the daunting problems coming into this offseason will be the acquisition of a starter. The Cubs need a reliable and competent guy in the #2 slot. Wood might come back at a reduced price, but can he be trusted? Maddux might come back again, but can he put up the numbers the Cubs need? Will guys like Guzman and Marshall be able to remain healthy despite their injury histories? Will Marmol and Hill be able to gain better control and command? Maddux (and/or Ramirez) could potentially fetch that from another team.

 

He's done a terrific job with the Cubs and I'd love to see him return as a pitching coach after his playing days are over. But right now, he's most valuable to the Cubs as a trading chip for a team looking to overpay for a starting pitcher.

 

Excellent post. I agree with every word.

 

I only disagree with point 1)

 

There is plenty Maddux has and hasnt taught the kids I'm sure. Why not give them more exposure to him? I would much rather take your point 2) and replace Rothschild with Maddux, by firing Larry and leting Maddux player/coach, if he would.

 

That being said, if we could get a great prospect for him in a trade, by alllll means, full speed ahead on it. But we should still fire Larry, and Moe, and Curly for that matter........

[hawkeyecub]

Look if we can get an impact prospect or any of the rumored Dodgers prospects we've talked about who have upside and could be ML ready very soon, you make the deal and thank your lucky stars.

If you can only get C prospects for him, I'd rather just keep him and watch him pitch 6 more times.

[Chocolate Milk]

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

 

I think we have different definitions of this word.

[abuck1220]

What he brings to the team in terms of the clubhouse is not really worth a minimal prospect.

 

 

You can't quantify this statement whatsoever. You can't say what he has or has not brought to the other pitchers

 

confused.

 

Simple: if causation cannot be quantified by statistics (and they are not in this case), you must accept the word of those who are affected by his presence. They are as close as you can get to primary information.

 

no way, no way, no way. you can't take guys for their word on that. they get asked all the time, what's maddux doing to help you? what have you learned from maddux? do you really think you can take them for their word when they say he's been a help? how do you expect them to answer? that is in no way close to primary information.

[goonys evil twin]

Look if we can get an impact prospect or any of the rumored Dodgers prospects we've talked about who have upside and could be ML ready very soon, you make the deal and thank your lucky stars.

If you can only get C prospects for him, I'd rather just keep him and watch him pitch 6 more times.

 

I'd rather the Cubs think about 2007 and beyond, which means finding rotation spots for young guys now to both gauge what they can bring to the table, and let them work through whatever struggles they are inevitably going to encounter. Maddux's last 8 starts with Chicago will be meaningless when all is said and done. None of them will have any playoff implications (for the Cubs). In 2 years nobody is going to look back on Maddux's career and think about how wonderful it was that he got to start another handful of times in August and September 2006, when the team was 20 games under .500 and a pathetic joke across the league.

[abuck1220]

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

 

I think we have different definitions of this word.

 

yeah, we must. for instance, i think a 1.17 whip and a 4.20 era is good.

[Rusch33]

So Maddux is not going to traded or whats up?

[Chocolate Milk]

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

 

I think we have different definitions of this word.

 

yeah, we must. for instance, i think a 1.17 whip and a 4.20 era is good.

 

Yes and I consider an ERA+ of 97 to be below average.

[cubfan1955]

I still think a lot of people are over-estimating what Maddux will fetch. Sure, if someone offers a top prospect, jump at it. I just don't see the offer coming. So if someone offers an suspect instead of a top prospect should we deal him? I still think in 2007 he could be as good as any other 5th starter in the league. Just an opinion though.

 

We should know in a little over an hour.

[frostwyrm]

In 2 years nobody is going to look back on Maddux's career and think about how wonderful it was that he got to start another handful of times in August and September 2006, when the team was 20 games under .500 and a pathetic joke across the league.

You heartless bastard. I still get misty-eyed when I think of Fred McGriff achieving the 30 homers for 5 teams mark while in a Cubs uniform during a lost season. Great memories.

[JeffH]

...during a lost season.

 

Could you be more specific?

[goonys evil twin]

I still think a lot of people are over-estimating what Maddux will fetch. Sure, if someone offers a top prospect, jump at it. I just don't see the offer coming. So if someone offers an suspect instead of a top prospect should we deal him? I still think in 2007 he could be as good as any other 5th starter in the league. Just an opinion though.

 

We should know in a little over an hour.

 

$9 million good? If he wanted to come back at $750,000 to be that 5th starter, fine, but the problem is Hendry feels obligated to pay him for what he used to be, as opposed to what he is currently. And people will worry about the "slight" of offering what he's actually worth. Waste several million on Maddux and you are going to have a tough time filling the many other needs this team has to fill. Just like wasting money on Rusch and Neifi makes it difficult to find actual producers.

[Sammy Sofa]

...during a lost season.

 

Could you be more specific?

 

Take your pick over the last 10 decades.

[frostwyrm]

...during a lost season.

 

Could you be more specific?

 

No.

[hawkeyecub]

Look if we can get an impact prospect or any of the rumored Dodgers prospects we've talked about who have upside and could be ML ready very soon, you make the deal and thank your lucky stars.

If you can only get C prospects for him, I'd rather just keep him and watch him pitch 6 more times.

 

I'd rather the Cubs think about 2007 and beyond, which means finding rotation spots for young guys now to both gauge what they can bring to the table, and let them work through whatever struggles they are inevitably going to encounter. Maddux's last 8 starts with Chicago will be meaningless when all is said and done. None of them will have any playoff implications (for the Cubs). In 2 years nobody is going to look back on Maddux's career and think about how wonderful it was that he got to start another handful of times in August and September 2006, when the team was 20 games under .500 and a pathetic joke across the league.

 

I realize that. At the same time Greg Maddux is perhaps my favorite player of all-time and if we can't get anyone of any quality in return for him, I'd like to see him pitch 6 or 7 more times. I'm not saying it's going to be wonderful or I'll look back at these last two months with the fondest of memories. But I'd rather see him a few more times than seeing J.K. Ryu called up to get bombed.

I guess I also think that people are overstating the importance of opening up a rotation slot for a youngster. Who is really knocking down the door to get opportunities to start in the majors right now? Who do we have that we need to evaluate for a starting spot next year other than Hill, Marmol (both getting starts right now) and Marshall? Furthermore, I don't think you gain a ton of information in your evaluation of a young pitcher based on 5 starts in the majors.

Edited July 31, 2006 by hawkeyecub

[abuck1220]

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

 

I think we have different definitions of this word.

 

yeah, we must. for instance, i think a 1.17 whip and a 4.20 era is good.

 

Yes and I consider an ERA+ of 97 to be below average.

 

fine, he's horrendous and i wish he were dead.

 

a 1.17 whip is good, and i didn't take the time to draft a thesis on the finer points of his statistics. i thought he'd be a decent 3/4 for the brewers (despite his woefully inadequate ERA+) given the fact that the brewers are a mid-market team.

[Chocolate Milk]

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

 

I think we have different definitions of this word.

 

yeah, we must. for instance, i think a 1.17 whip and a 4.20 era is good.

 

Yes and I consider an ERA+ of 97 to be below average.

 

fine, he's horrendous and i wish he were dead.

 

a 1.17 whip is good, and i didn't take the time to draft a thesis on the finer points of his statistics. i thought he'd be a decent 3/4 for the brewers (despite his woefully inadequate ERA+) given the fact that the brewers are a mid-market team.

 

\You need to lighten up. I disagree that he's good, no need to get your panties all in a bunch. Take a deep breath.

Edited July 31, 2006 by Chocolate Milk

[abuck1220]

Look if we can get an impact prospect or any of the rumored Dodgers prospects we've talked about who have upside and could be ML ready very soon, you make the deal and thank your lucky stars.

If you can only get C prospects for him, I'd rather just keep him and watch him pitch 6 more times.

 

I'd rather the Cubs think about 2007 and beyond, which means finding rotation spots for young guys now to both gauge what they can bring to the table, and let them work through whatever struggles they are inevitably going to encounter. Maddux's last 8 starts with Chicago will be meaningless when all is said and done. None of them will have any playoff implications (for the Cubs). In 2 years nobody is going to look back on Maddux's career and think about how wonderful it was that he got to start another handful of times in August and September 2006, when the team was 20 games under .500 and a pathetic joke across the league.

 

I realize that. At the same time Greg Maddux is perhaps my favorite player of all-time and if we can't get anyone of any quality in return for him, I'd like to see him pitch 6 or 7 more times. I'm not saying it's going to be wonderful or I'll look back at these last two months with the fondest of memories. But I'd rather see him a few more times than seeing J.K. Ryu called up to get bombed.

I guess I also think that people are overstating the importance of opening up a rotation slot for a youngster. Who is really knocking down the door to get opportunities to start in the majors right now? Who do we have that we need to evaluate for a starting spot next year other than Hill, Marmol (both getting starts right now) and Marshall? Furthermore, I don't think you gain a ton of information in your evaluation of a young pitcher based on 5 starts in the majors.

 

and i think you're overstating the importance of getting to see your favorite pitcher pitch for your favorite team a few more times.

[cubfan1955]

I still think a lot of people are over-estimating what Maddux will fetch. Sure, if someone offers a top prospect, jump at it. I just don't see the offer coming. So if someone offers an suspect instead of a top prospect should we deal him? I still think in 2007 he could be as good as any other 5th starter in the league. Just an opinion though.

 

We should know in a little over an hour.

 

$9 million good? If he wanted to come back at $750,000 to be that 5th starter, fine, but the problem is Hendry feels obligated to pay him for what he used to be, as opposed to what he is currently. And people will worry about the "slight" of offering what he's actually worth. Waste several million on Maddux and you are going to have a tough time filling the many other needs this team has to fill. Just like wasting money on Rusch and Neifi makes it difficult to find actual producers.

Oh no...not at $9 million. Never in a zillion years. Bring him back at a greatly reduced rate.

[Caryatid]

What he brings to the team in terms of the clubhouse is not really worth a minimal prospect.

 

 

You can't quantify this statement whatsoever. You can't say what he has or has not brought to the other pitchers

 

confused.

 

Simple: if causation cannot be quantified by statistics (and they are not in this case), you must accept the word of those who are affected by his presence. They are as close as you can get to primary information.

 

no way, no way, no way. you can't take guys for their word on that. they get asked all the time, what's maddux doing to help you? what have you learned from maddux? do you really think you can take them for their word when they say he's been a help? how do you expect them to answer? that is in no way close to primary information.

 

You certainly cannot prove any causation or lack thereof from statistics, either, so this is as close as you can get to primary information. And its enough for me to say that his intangible value to the club is more than that of a "C" prospect. At this point, its a value judgment either way, as I believe that there is no quantifiable way to prove he's NOT helping the young players (as there is minimal foolproof evidence to prove he is), and as such, there's no real factual high ground here.

[abuck1220]

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

 

I think we have different definitions of this word.

 

yeah, we must. for instance, i think a 1.17 whip and a 4.20 era is good.

 

Yes and I consider an ERA+ of 97 to be below average.

 

fine, he's horrendous and i wish he were dead.

 

a 1.17 whip is good, and i didn't take the time to draft a thesis on the finer points of his statistics. i thought he'd be a decent 3/4 for the brewers (despite his woefully inadequate ERA+) given the fact that the brewers are a mid-market team.

 

\You need to lighten up. I disagree that he's good, no need to get your panties all in a bunch. Take a deep breath.

 

well, i guess it depends on how you view good. my point was that he's more than a mere inning eater, which is how someone described him. he's no, say, jered weaver, or anything.

[goonys evil twin]

I realize that. At the same time Greg Maddux is perhaps my favorite player of all-time and if we can't get anyone of any quality in return for him, I'd like to see him pitch 6 or 7 more times. I'm not saying it's going to be wonderful or I'll look back at these last two months with the fondest of memories. But I'd rather see him a few more times than seeing J.K. Ryu called up to get bombed.

I guess I also think that people are overstating the importance of opening up a rotation slot for a youngster. Who is really knocking down the door to get opportunities to start in the majors right now? Who do we have that we need to evaluate for a starting spot next year other than Hill, Marmol (both getting starts right now) and Marshall? Furthermore, I don't think you gain a ton of information in your evaluation of a young pitcher based on 5 starts in the majors.

 

That's my point. Allowing emotions to determine personel moves is a great way to ruin a franchise. The smart thing is to look for 2007, and keeping Maddux around stifles 2007.

 

Hill is only getting starts because Marshall isn't. Dusty is looking for any excuse to pull the plug after 1 or 2 outings. And since when does 2 months of baseball equal 5 starts for a pitcher? If Hill gets 4 days rest after every outing, he could get 12 more starts this season, which would blow away the "opportunity" he's been given so far in his career.

 

I care about the Cubs. It's been cool getting to watch Maddux and he's an amazing pitcher. But he hasn't been good since returning to the team and his only value to this team would be as trade bait.

[Chocolate Milk]

i thought weaver would be a good sign for the brewers prior to the season b/c he was good last year, not b/c he ate innings.

 

I think we have different definitions of this word.

 

yeah, we must. for instance, i think a 1.17 whip and a 4.20 era is good.

 

Yes and I consider an ERA+ of 97 to be below average.

 

fine, he's horrendous and i wish he were dead.

 

a 1.17 whip is good, and i didn't take the time to draft a thesis on the finer points of his statistics. i thought he'd be a decent 3/4 for the brewers (despite his woefully inadequate ERA+) given the fact that the brewers are a mid-market team.

 

\You need to lighten up. I disagree that he's good, no need to get your panties all in a bunch. Take a deep breath.

 

well, i guess it depends on how you view good. my point was that he's more than a mere inning eater, which is how someone described him. he's no, say, jered weaver, or anything.

 

Fair enough.

[hawkeyecub]

Look if we can get an impact prospect or any of the rumored Dodgers prospects we've talked about who have upside and could be ML ready very soon, you make the deal and thank your lucky stars.

If you can only get C prospects for him, I'd rather just keep him and watch him pitch 6 more times.

 

I'd rather the Cubs think about 2007 and beyond, which means finding rotation spots for young guys now to both gauge what they can bring to the table, and let them work through whatever struggles they are inevitably going to encounter. Maddux's last 8 starts with Chicago will be meaningless when all is said and done. None of them will have any playoff implications (for the Cubs). In 2 years nobody is going to look back on Maddux's career and think about how wonderful it was that he got to start another handful of times in August and September 2006, when the team was 20 games under .500 and a pathetic joke across the league.

 

I realize that. At the same time Greg Maddux is perhaps my favorite player of all-time and if we can't get anyone of any quality in return for him, I'd like to see him pitch 6 or 7 more times. I'm not saying it's going to be wonderful or I'll look back at these last two months with the fondest of memories. But I'd rather see him a few more times than seeing J.K. Ryu called up to get bombed.

I guess I also think that people are overstating the importance of opening up a rotation slot for a youngster. Who is really knocking down the door to get opportunities to start in the majors right now? Who do we have that we need to evaluate for a starting spot next year other than Hill, Marmol (both getting starts right now) and Marshall? Furthermore, I don't think you gain a ton of information in your evaluation of a young pitcher based on 5 starts in the majors.

 

and i think you're overstating the importance of getting to see your favorite pitcher pitch for your favorite team a few more times.

 

Probably, I fully admit that. It's my opinion, nothing more.

 

But can you answer the questions in my last paragraph? What will be gained by shipping him off just to ship him off and then giving starts to someone who may or may not be ready when you can't really make a good evaluation based off those starts?

The only way the Cubs are really helped out in this whole situation is if we can land a quality prospect or more. If he starts for us the rest of the year nothing is gained and if we get C or lower prospects in return nothing is gained. Given that choice, I'd rather see him be the one to get the starts.

[ChiCubsFan]

I still think a lot of people are over-estimating what Maddux will fetch. Sure, if someone offers a top prospect, jump at it. I just don't see the offer coming. So if someone offers an suspect instead of a top prospect should we deal him? I still think in 2007 he could be as good as any other 5th starter in the league. Just an opinion though.

 

We should know in a little over an hour.

 

$9 million good? If he wanted to come back at $750,000 to be that 5th starter, fine, but the problem is Hendry feels obligated to pay him for what he used to be, as opposed to what he is currently. And people will worry about the "slight" of offering what he's actually worth. Waste several million on Maddux and you are going to have a tough time filling the many other needs this team has to fill. Just like wasting money on Rusch and Neifi makes it difficult to find actual producers.

Oh no...not at $9 million. Never in a zillion years. Bring him back at a greatly reduced rate.

 

The thing is he won't get offered a greatly reduced rate. We'll probably waste 7 mil on him. If he got paid like a 5th starter I'd love to have him, but he's getting paid like a #2 or #3 starter and not performing like one.