Haren and Barton or Mulder?

[Mark_R]

Cards fans decide!!!

 

And if you're a rational Cubs fan, you can vote too.

[YearofDaCubs]

I think Calero has potential to be really good too.

[reggiemiller rules]

I would take Barton and Haren right now because they could probably package Barton for a hitter right now.

[radarluv1]

if you want to evaluate the trade, give the contract info on haren and calero. we all know mulder is a FA after this year.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Wow....this one is pretty one-sided.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Wow....this one is pretty one-sided.

 

I think rightfully so.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Barton and Haren

 

 

I was never a huge fan of the deal but understand why Walt did it. Plus I think Barton is overrated.

[gus_dog]

I think Calero has potential to be really good too.

 

I always thought Calero had good stuff...just needed some seasoning.

[Brian]

Haren is one of my favorites players so.. Haren, Barton and Calero.

[ChiCubsFan]

Barton=overrated

 

but

 

Haren>>Mulder

 

Kiko ain't too bad either.

[Outshined_One]

Barton should be thankful he's in an AL team's farm system.

[TruffleShuffle]

Haren is better than Mulder, isn't that all you need to say about this deal?

[imb]

Haren is better than Mulder, isn't that all you need to say about this deal?

 

no, he's much cheaper too

[Geech]

Haren is better than Mulder, isn't that all you need to say about this deal?

 

no, he's much cheaper too

 

Younger, also.

[EastonBlues22]

Last year Mulder was a stud over the last three months of the season and pitched credibly in the postseason as well. Probably much better than Haren would have given his inexperience (both starting in the postseason, and in dealing with late season arm fatigue), but that's impossible to really know. At the time, I felt better having Mulder out there than I would have felt having Haren starting.

 

This year, obviously, it's a different story. Haren is pitching better, is younger, and is cheaper. It would be nice having him back, but I still don't mind the gamble that Jocketty took for last year's playoffs. Nobody knew that Mulder would fall right off the map like this at age 28 (he's only three years older than Haren, remember). If Mulder had continued his resurgence from the last three months of the season, Walt would be looking pretty decent. As it is, right now, the deal looks pretty bad.

 

There's still time for another face-saving turnaround though...Mulder blew in the middle of last year two and still salvaged a pretty decent season out of it. Either way, I don't see the Cards signing him to a long term big dollar deal this offseason.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Last year Mulder was a stud over the last three months of the season and pitched credibly in the postseason as well. Probably much better than Haren would have given his inexperience (both starting in the postseason, and in dealing with late season arm fatigue), but that's impossible to really know. At the time, I felt better having Mulder out there than I would have felt having Haren starting.

 

This year, obviously, it's a different story. Haren is pitching better, is younger, and is cheaper. It would be nice having him back, but I still don't mind the gamble that Jocketty took for last year's playoffs. Nobody knew that Mulder would fall right off the map like this at age 28 (he's only three years older than Haren, remember). If Mulder had continued his resurgence from the last three months of the season, Walt would be looking pretty decent. As it is, right now, the deal looks pretty bad.

 

There's still time for another face-saving turnaround though...Mulder blew in the middle of last year two and still salvaged a pretty decent season out of it. Either way, I don't see the Cards signing him to a long term big dollar deal this offseason.

 

Haren doesn't have postseason experience starting, but he's been good(better postseason ERA than Mulder) when he has pitched.

 

Also, September was Haren's best month last year.

[DanzaSlap]

At the time, I thought this was a good trade, as much as I liked Haren. Now, however, it seems pretty obvious that this is was one of Jocketty's worst deals. Mulder's been a pretty huge disappointment.

 

Of course, if he gets his stuff together and helps the Cards win the WS, then I'll change my vote. Until then, however, I don't see how anyone could say they'd rather have Mulder.

[YearofDaCubs]

At the time, I thought this was a good trade, as much as I liked Haren. Now, however, it seems pretty obvious that this is was one of Jocketty's worst deals. Mulder's been a pretty huge disappointment.

 

Of course, if he gets his stuff together and helps the Cards win the WS, then I'll change my vote. Until then, however, I don't see how anyone could say they'd rather have Mulder.

I was reading a report that Mulder has lost velocity last year and lost even more this year any truth to that? Did he have any injuries recently that would cause that?

[DanzaSlap]

I was reading a report that Mulder has lost velocity last year and lost even more this year any truth to that? Did he have any injuries recently that would cause that?

 

I honestly don't know. When we got him, there were reports that his drop in velocity was due to injury. But he took a couple physicals and got medical clearance, so I'm not sure. I didn't really follow Mulder when he was in the AL, so I can't really say how hard he used to throw. It doesn't seem like his velocity is down so much this year as he's just not hitting his location and he's keeping the ball up. He doesn't throw hard enough to make mistakes like that, so when he does, it just gets hammered.

 

If I'm Jocketty, I trade him for whatever I can get. He's not worth AJ Burnett-money (hell, AJ wasn't worth that kind of money, and Mulder's better), and I'd be shocked if he took any sort of discount to stay in St. Louis. Trade him for whatever you can get, insert Reyes in the rotation, and go from there. It's telling that I have more confidence in a rookie than I do in a former Cy Young winner (telling of my intelligence, perhaps, but more telling of the way Mulder is pitching). He still has time to turn it around, but I'm losing faith quickly.

[EastonBlues22]

Haren doesn't have postseason experience starting, but he's been good(better postseason ERA than Mulder) when he has pitched.

 

Also, September was Haren's best month last year.

 

There's a big difference between starting and being a relief pitcher in terms of preparation and execution. Does anyone here think Wainwright is going to put up these types of numbers as a starter next year? You can be a successful reliever with one gimmick pitch. Working an order three or four times is entirely different.

 

Yes, I am aware of that, but it was also a 212 inning year for him or something like that...I'm fairly positive he's never even come close to that before in the minors. No one could have predicted before the season how he would have responded to a workload like that.

[TruffleShuffle]

Yes, I am aware of that, but it was also a 212 inning year for him or something like that...I'm fairly positive he's never even come close to that before in the minors. No one could have predicted before the season how he would have responded to a workload like that.

 

Actually, they probably could have.

 

2002: 193.2 IP

2003: 173.1 IP

2004: 174.0 IP (but included some relief pitching for St Louis)

 

That's another reason the Cards shouldn't have traded him. He has been extremely durable since being drafted, and as Cub fans who have watched Wood and Prior spend so much time out of the rotation, we understand how important it is to have a solid pitcher who's ready to go every time his turn comes around.

[indifferent]

I think it's a convenient time to start this poll.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I think it's a convenient time to start this poll.

 

It was brought about by another thread.

[indifferent]

I think it's a convenient time to start this poll.

 

It was brought about by another thread.

 

Gotcha, well it's obviously the worst trade Jocketty's made in his 10 yr. tenure with the Cards and that includes the Tino FA signing (and hopefully the Juan E signing). Let's pay 7.3 million more for a worse starting pitcher and throw in three of our already thin trading chips. Sign me up!

[EastonBlues22]

Yes, I am aware of that, but it was also a 212 inning year for him or something like that...I'm fairly positive he's never even come close to that before in the minors. No one could have predicted before the season how he would have responded to a workload like that.

 

Actually, they probably could have.

 

2002: 193.2 IP

2003: 173.1 IP

2004: 174.0 IP (but included some relief pitching for St Louis)

 

That's another reason the Cards shouldn't have traded him. He has been extremely durable since being drafted, and as Cub fans who have watched Wood and Prior spend so much time out of the rotation, we understand how important it is to have a solid pitcher who's ready to go every time his turn comes around.

I sure didn't remember the 193.2. I did remember the 170s figures. Still, that's 5-6 extra starts over what what he had the two years before...all at the MLB level, which might be a little harder on the arm than whatever minor-league competition he was facing three years before. (In terms of having to bear down almost every hitter, etc...but I have no evidence to back this up).

 

Honestly, it's not worth arguing over. Nobody thought Haren would be this good, this fast. (He was the afterthought in the trade...remember? ATL gave OAK the better arms and the Cards gave up Barton). I'm positive that LaRussa wouldn't have given Haren a significant role last year in the postseason as a rookie...not over any qualified veteran anyway.

 

Bottom line for this trade is that it looks darn bad right now. Hopefully it won't look quite so bad in another few months.