Jacque's live bat

[goonys evil twin]

I read what you wrote Goony, and Fred answered it directly. You quoted Jones' season batting averages (even though this stat is really out of place in this argument) as of April 28 and May 9, trying to prove that Jones season hasn't been good. It looks like you might have missed what was written, b/c nobody is claiming that JJ has been good all year, or that his season stats are good. We did claim that Jones' has played well during the tank and is not "the problem" (leaving aside the issue that everyone is part of the problem) he's being made out to be by many.

 

Fred provided the "on point" stats. Between April 26 and May31 Jones' numbers look pretty good. He's not a savior, but he's hasn't been a problem for over a month.

 

So the Cubs were 13-8 as of April 28. Jones stats as of April 26 are pretty good. How is 13-8 in the crapper? Even 13-13? I'll take a .500 team come August in most years.

 

Fred was wrong though. And so were you.

 

Jones sucked between late April and mid-may. He didn't pick it up until after the team was well below .500, a little bit of too little too late if you want to stop people from complaining. Jones sucking played a huge role in bringing the Cubs down. It had nothing to do with his season stats at the time. He was crap going in, and crap throughout that string of games. He started to hit in mid May, after the Cubs were toast.

 

 

I don't understand everybody's desire to gloss over the weakness of this team, of which, Jones is one.

[Mark_R]

 

Jones sucked between late April and mid-may.

 

Perhaps you could quanitfy which specific range you're referring to instead of these vague timeframes. Exact dates and post some numbers.

[goonys evil twin]

 

Jones sucked between late April and mid-may.

 

Perhaps you could quanitfy which specific range you're referring to instead of these vague timeframes. Exact dates and post some numbers.

 

This is what I wrote.

 

When Jones struggled, the Cubs were winning. Since Jones has been playing well, the Cubs are losing. Jones is not the problem. In fact, I'll take his play this year over Aramis.

 

That's some questionable logic.

 

On April 28 the Cubs were 13-8 and Jacque Jones was hitting .231/.281/.500. On May 9 the Cubs were 14-18 and JJ was hitting .244/.289/.444..

 

It was a direct reaction to the inaccurate statement that "when Jones struggled, the Cubs were winning. The Cubs were 13-8 on April 28 (high water mark over .500). Between then and May 9 Jones was pretty much the same player, with a slight uptick in OBP and a noticable downturn in SLG. I'm not going through all those games and calculating the total, but if his numbers went in bad, and they came out just as bad, it's pretty safe to say he was bad.

 

Jones had a big day on May 10 and the Cubs won. But the die had already been cast. They were way under and in a tailspin. Since that May 10 big day, his numbers have settled into a better range. He played better after the team was already a joke. The Cubs problems didn't just start after Jones got hot. He was a big part of their fall. And you simply cannot ignore his overall bad OBP (the teams greatest weakness for several years now), as well as the multiple pickoffs that torpedoes potentially big innings.

[srbin84]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

[goonys evil twin]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

 

A .317 OBP is absolutely terrible.

[srbin84]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

 

A .317 OBP is absolutely terrible.

 

A .500 SLG and 30 homers is better than average though. It balances out to be a solid season for what he his being paid.

[goonys evil twin]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

 

A .317 OBP is absolutely terrible.

 

A .500 SLG and 30 homers is better than average though. It balances out to be a solid season for what he his being paid.

 

We'll see. First he'd have to put up that SLG, which would be the 2nd highest in his career. Remember, he's got a history of hot starts, and he routinely fades as the season goes along. And OBP should be weighed more heavily than SLG.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I read what you wrote Goony, and Fred answered it directly. You quoted Jones' season batting averages (even though this stat is really out of place in this argument) as of April 28 and May 9, trying to prove that Jones season hasn't been good. It looks like you might have missed what was written, b/c nobody is claiming that JJ has been good all year, or that his season stats are good. We did claim that Jones' has played well during the tank and is not "the problem" (leaving aside the issue that everyone is part of the problem) he's being made out to be by many.

 

Fred provided the "on point" stats. Between April 26 and May31 Jones' numbers look pretty good. He's not a savior, but he's hasn't been a problem for over a month.

 

So the Cubs were 13-8 as of April 28. Jones stats as of April 26 are pretty good. How is 13-8 in the crapper? Even 13-13? I'll take a .500 team come August in most years.

 

Fred was wrong though. And so were you.

 

Jones sucked between late April and mid-may. He didn't pick it up until after the team was well below .500, a little bit of too little too late if you want to stop people from complaining. Jones sucking played a huge role in bringing the Cubs down. It had nothing to do with his season stats at the time. He was crap going in, and crap throughout that string of games. He started to hit in mid May, after the Cubs were toast.

 

 

I don't understand everybody's desire to gloss over the weakness of this team, of which, Jones is one.

 

No, Goony, he did not.

 

Jones              AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/26 - 05/13      54    4   18    3    0    3   30    9    2   10  0.333  0.357  0.556  0.913

[Illini Iceman]

 

Jones sucked between late April and mid-may.

 

Perhaps you could quanitfy which specific range you're referring to instead of these vague timeframes. Exact dates and post some numbers.

 

This is what I wrote.

 

When Jones struggled, the Cubs were winning. Since Jones has been playing well, the Cubs are losing. Jones is not the problem. In fact, I'll take his play this year over Aramis.

 

That's some questionable logic.

 

On April 28 the Cubs were 13-8 and Jacque Jones was hitting .231/.281/.500. On May 9 the Cubs were 14-18 and JJ was hitting .244/.289/.444..

 

It was a direct reaction to the inaccurate statement that "when Jones struggled, the Cubs were winning. The Cubs were 13-8 on April 28 (high water mark over .500). Between then and May 9 Jones was pretty much the same player, with a slight uptick in OBP and a noticable downturn in SLG. I'm not going through all those games and calculating the total, but if his numbers went in bad, and they came out just as bad, it's pretty safe to say he was bad.

 

Jones had a big day on May 10 and the Cubs won. But the die had already been cast. They were way under and in a tailspin. Since that May 10 big day, his numbers have settled into a better range. He played better after the team was already a joke. The Cubs problems didn't just start after Jones got hot. He was a big part of their fall. And you simply cannot ignore his overall bad OBP (the teams greatest weakness for several years now), as well as the multiple pickoffs that torpedoes potentially big innings.

 

At 14-18 the "die had already been cast"? I think if a few other players had stepped it up like JJ did at that point there was plenty of time to salvage the season considering they were only 4 under .500 with 130 games left to play.

[srbin84]

There's no point in arguing with him now.

[Monco]

Hes hit well for 3 weeks. So? The rest of the team has sucked. His defense still is not that good. They are 13 1/2 games out. Why don't someone suggest that Jacque "saved' us in May like Neifi "saved" us last year. Could you imagine where the team would have been without him?

[WrigleyField 22]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

 

A .317 OBP is absolutely terrible.

 

A .500 SLG and 30 homers is better than average though. It balances out to be a solid season for what he his being paid.

 

We'll see. First he'd have to put up that SLG, which would be the 2nd highest in his career. Remember, he's got a history of hot starts, and he routinely fades as the season goes along. And OBP should be weighed more heavily than SLG.

 

Depends on where in the lineup that guy is hitting. The top 5 should definately be able to get on base, with 3-5 also being able to hit for power. If the number six hitter can simply provide good power thats not neccassarily terrible. Ideally you want a more rounded guy, but that wont always happen. It should happen, but thats sadly more than we can hope for with this team.

 

I think the best possible solution would be to trade for a real RF and platoon Murton and Jones in LF.

[soccer10k]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

 

A .317 OBP is absolutely terrible.

 

Jacque is doing just as much, if not more, than should have been expected out of him. Currently he's on pace to post his highest BA since 2003, his highest SLG since 2002 and his highest OPS since 2002. Like srbin84 brought up, if he ends up with the 31 HR, and 95 RBI's he's on pace to put up, both of those will be career highs.

 

You want to complain about OBP, complain about Ronny Cedeno who is walking even less that Jones this year and isn't even close to Jones in the power numbers. There are bigger fish to fry here goony.

[goonys evil twin]

No, Goony, he did not.

 

Jones              AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/26 - 05/13      54    4   18    3    0    3   30    9    2   10  0.333  0.357  0.556  0.913

 

Fred, take 2 seconds to look at what I wrote, over the course of games that the Cubs began the tank, he sure as heck did suck. I acknowledged the great game on May 10, and how he's settled into a better range since then. But he did indeed suck during that string of games I mentioned.

 

Just because you change the range of dates from what I was talking about doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[goonys evil twin]

There are bigger fish to fry here goony.

 

And because of this we can't say anything bad about Jones?

 

 

Everybody has their guy they want to defend through thick and thin. And they use the same tired defense for everybody. Don't pick on Dusty because others have failed as well. Don't pick on Neifi because others have failed as well. Don't pick on Jones because others have failed as well.

 

 

Jacque Jones is not the Cubs biggest problem. I didn't say he was. But he played a large role in the collapse of the team, and his OBP is still terrible. He turned it on after they had collapsed, and if there is any hope of the team getting back into the race, they'll need him to keep it going. But history indicates there's little chance of that.

[Fred Hornkohl]

No, Goony, he did not.

 

Jones              AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/26 - 05/13      54    4   18    3    0    3   30    9    2   10  0.333  0.357  0.556  0.913

 

Fred, take 2 seconds to look at what I wrote, over the course of games that the Cubs began the tank, he sure as heck did suck. I acknowledged the great game on May 10, and how he's settled into a better range since then. But he did indeed suck during that string of games I mentioned.

 

Just because you change the range of dates from what I was talking about doesn't mean I'm wrong.

 

Goony, YOU take 2 seconds to look what you wrote.

 

He sucked while the team was tanking.

 

The team went into the crapper on 26 April, and they've been there ever since. I gave you the numbers showing that Jones had really done well over that stretch.......

 

04/26 - 05/31      AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
Jones             112   12   35    6    0    6   59   20    4   18  0.313  0.342  0.527  0.869

 

Then you said.......

 

From late April to early May, when the tanking started, Jones sucked.

 

So I gave you Jones' numbers to for that time frame......

 

Jones              AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS
04/26 - 05/13      54    4   18    3    0    3   30    9    2   10  0.333  0.357  0.556  0.913

 

Bottom line, Goony, Jones has been very productive when you've said he sucked. If you've got some hard data that shows I've missed something, then by all means, enlighten me, but the continued bombast & hyperbole serves only to lessen your credibility.

[Hacking Out Machine]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

 

A .317 OBP is absolutely terrible.

 

Jacque is doing just as much, if not more, than should have been expected out of him. Currently he's on pace to post his highest BA since 2003, his highest SLG since 2002 and his highest OPS since 2002. Like srbin84 brought up, if he ends up with the 31 HR, and 95 RBI's he's on pace to put up, both of those will be career highs.

 

You want to complain about OBP, complain about Ronny Cedeno who is walking even less that Jones this year and isn't even close to Jones in the power numbers. There are bigger fish to fry here goony.

 

Ronny Cedeno makes the minimum and is playing a position where offensive success is a bonus. Jones is making $15M over 3 years and plays a position where above average offense is essential. His long term presence hamstrings us in any attempts to upgrade the offense because he takes up a position where helpful talent is much more readily available. Cedeno needs to be held accountable, for sure, but not so much as Jones does, as the Cubs have much more to lose if Jones tanks than if Cedeno does.

[treebird]

the fact that jones isn't a disappointment is why he is not a good player and was a bad signing.

[soccer10k]

If he ends up .280/.317/.497 with 31 HRS 95 RBI and no injuries like he is on pace to have, I think that's fair for his salary this year.

 

A .317 OBP is absolutely terrible.

 

Jacque is doing just as much, if not more, than should have been expected out of him. Currently he's on pace to post his highest BA since 2003, his highest SLG since 2002 and his highest OPS since 2002. Like srbin84 brought up, if he ends up with the 31 HR, and 95 RBI's he's on pace to put up, both of those will be career highs.

 

You want to complain about OBP, complain about Ronny Cedeno who is walking even less that Jones this year and isn't even close to Jones in the power numbers. There are bigger fish to fry here goony.

 

Ronny Cedeno makes the minimum and is playing a position where offensive success is a bonus. Jones is making $15M over 3 years and plays a position where above average offense is essential. His long term presence hamstrings us in any attempts to upgrade the offense because he takes up a position where helpful talent is much more readily available. Cedeno needs to be held accountable, for sure, but not so much as Jones does, as the Cubs have much more to lose if Jones tanks than if Cedeno does.

 

We were discussing OBP not salaries. Goony criticized Jones's OBP and I stated that Ronny was worse. That's all. Why the need to bring up salary?

 

I don't know what MLB you are watching, but shortstops are expected to contribute more than they used to. I'm not saying that all shortstops need to put up Tejada numbers but Ronny isn't doing anything at the plate.

[RynoRules]

the fact that jones isn't a disappointment is why he is not a good player and was a bad signing.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but that's different than what Fred was pointing out.

[Omar]

Wow... Jacque is hitting .301.

[RynoRules]

Wow... Jacque is hitting .301.

 

Its great - if he can keep it up, maybe when Lee gets back this lineup can make some noise.

[RynoRules]

BUMP!!

 

Jacque for President!

[harrdb00]

BUMP!!

 

Jacque for President!

 

Jacque is having the best season of any hitter on the team, and people on this board can't be happy about it. I'm enjoying watching him hit. Moreso than any RF we have had in the past couple years (the last sammy season included).

 

I am impressed with how Jones has withstood the booing to rebound and put together a solid start to the season.

 

Yes, his OBP is below average, but is that the only way a guy should be evaluated? I don't think so.

[Peoriaman]

Many here decided they hated Jones when we signed him. They will hate him no matter how he does. It is sad. Edited June 6, 2006 by Peoriaman