Hendry extended through 2008

[oldcubsfan]

I can't believe people aren't spending this entire thread worrying about this meaning a Dusty extension. I can live with another few years of Hendry, I can not tolerate another few years of Baker.

 

Well, you are going to be very unhappy then. IF

Dusty wants to stay, he will. It really will be up to him.

 

That might be true, but it's really a dumb move by the organization if it is. Nobody should be allowed to stay just because they want to. Brett Favre gets that treatment in GB because he was a savior. Dusty has done nothing to earn such treatment in Chicago.

 

You seem to have missed my point, they want him back. The only question is whether he wants to extend.

[Banedon]

I can't believe people aren't spending this entire thread worrying about this meaning a Dusty extension. I can live with another few years of Hendry, I can not tolerate another few years of Baker.

 

Well, you are going to be very unhappy then. IF

Dusty wants to stay, he will. It really will be up to him.

 

That might be true, but it's really a dumb move by the organization if it is. Nobody should be allowed to stay just because they want to. Brett Favre gets that treatment in GB because he was a savior. Dusty has done nothing to earn such treatment in Chicago.

 

You seem to have missed my point, they want him back. The only question is whether he wants to extend.

 

I'm not sure he missed the point...I think he's just dissapointed with the possiblity that it's accurate... :?

[Vinestal]

Lets all pray to whatever God that Dusty does not want to return. Dusty is a horrible, horrible manager. I think its a good idea not to extend Hendry simply for the fact that he would want to resign Baker. Its just stupid.

[anemic offense]

Hendry's handling of the farm system is far from his biggest problem. All one needs to do is look at his FA pickups the last several years to see where he's erred. He's missed on LT, Remy, Maddux (IMO, he way overpaid for him), Burnitz (not bad but overpaid), Fox, Jones (jury's still out but he is overpaid as well), Merk, Lenny Harris, etc. Really, outside of the guys he's extended, Rusch and Dempster are about the only FAs he's signed that were worth a damn. If Hendry hadn't missed so badly in FA the last few years I think we'd have at least one more playoff performance to show for it. Edited April 4, 2006 by anemic offense

[anemic offense]

I forgot to add I'm pretty torn on his signing. Can't really decide if its good or bad.

 

As always, I reserve the right to rip it if he fails (or praise it if he works out). :lol:

[CubDad4Ever]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

[Monco]

I'm sick of hearing about having to sign Hendry,Baker,Lee etc. because the longer you wait the bigger distraction.Why aren't we worried about the games instead of the money?Perform and the money will work itself out.If these people are really distracted by their contract status are they really worth having?Obviously they have a problem focusing on what really matters.

[ToupeeOnFire]

You mean like saddling the 25 man roster with mediocre talent, thinning a farm system that he had previously worked so hard to build, etc.?

 

I don't know about "thinning the farm system." A few years ago, everybody, including Baseball America was gaga over a system that included Patterson, Choi, Kelton, Goldbach, Christensen, Hill, Hinske, Cruz, Zambrano and others.

 

Hendry used that system to trade some of these "prospects" for players such as Lee and Ramirez. Not to mention Jerome Williams and Aardsma, who threw the heck out of the ball in spring training.

 

My guess is that the current system will provide more serviceable players, not necessarily stars, than the system everybody raved about a few years ago. Guys like Dopirak, Sing, Fox, Reyes, Ryu, Theriot, Guzman, Pie, Coats, Marshall, McGehee are likely to make more of an impact than the aforementioned players. And Pie is a possible star. And don't be surprised if Hendry uses some of these players and guys like Rich Hill, in future trades.

 

And mediocre talent abounds in the major leagues these days.

I don't know, Bruce.

 

In 2002, the Cubs had the #1 rated farm system and the top 6 looked like this: Prior, Cruz, Choi, Kelton, Hill, Zambrano. That's two bona fide stars, two fringe-regular players for a couple years, one backup and one bust. And I'd love to see what Choi and Hill would have been able to do if their development hadn't been stalled with the hand/wrist and back/leg injuries, respectively (at least, I think that's what happened to Hill, iirc). Go a little deeper on that list and it included guys like Guzman, Ryu, Cedeno, Beltran, Welly, Willis, Sisco, Theriot & Wuertz. All of these guys have seen the majors except the first two, who will see it at some point soon. Willis adds another star to the list of players in the system in 2002. Cedeno, Wuertz & Sisco add three more solid regulars. Guzman and Ryu make up part of the current core of players. The system that Hendry built as farm director and took over as GM in 2002 was almost ridiculously deep.

 

If the Cubs get nearly that much service out of the current group of players I'll be really surprised. The overall quality of the system is part of what helped raise the reputation of guys like Hill and Choi to the point where they had enough value to get ARam and Lee. I don't see players in the system currently who have enough value to land marquee guys like that except for Pie and, maybe, a couple of the pitchers. And Pie is not really any more highly regarded now than Choi was back at that time. Another point is that we were able to trade some of these guys without feeling it too badly because there were so many good prospects. If we traded away Pie right now, who would be left on the position side with star potential unless Dopirak or Harvey can turn things around in a hurry? And while we have some good pitchers in the system right now, they certainly don't compare to the Prior/Cruz/Z troika.

 

There are certainly still players there who are going to provide value to the team. But I don't think there's any question that the system is shallower than when Hendry moved up to GM and has a lot less star potential.

 

Good points all, Tim. There were a lot of red flags among baseball people about Hill and Choi before any injuries came along. Scott Boras did a good job of ballyhooing Hill. Once he got into pro ball, a lot of flaws in his game were exposed. Scouts saw a lot of flaws in Choi's game even before 2003, with one telling us he'd be in the minor leagues that season _ and this was in March of 2003.

 

The Cubs have gotten pretty good feelers already on guys like Eric Patterson, Marshall, Gallagher and Hill. The jury is still out on guys like Harvey, Dopirak, Grant Johnson, Veal and Pawelek.

 

The Cubs development staff did a pretty good job in turning Wuertz's career around. (He's another good guy, and I hope his bad spring was just a fluke.)

 

It's just so hard to tell. That's why I don't get too caught up in saying how great or lousy things look at the moment.

regarding Choi & Hill - I'm talking about the injuries they had while in AAA before ever really hitting the majors. Looking back at Choi, in particular, before he hurt his hand in his first pass at AAA in 2001 gives me a moment of wonder of what might have been. He essentially missed a year of development with that injury and the Cubs had to go get McGriff to end the season. Choi spent the next year recovering his stroke at Iowa while Crime Dog patrolled Wrigley. No hand injury and I think HSC's major league career could have looked much different.

Maybe, but I think the scouts have been proven correct with Choi, i.e., his big looping swing has proven to be problematic in the majors. Not that he still can't still turn out to be worthwhile, he obviously has the pop in his bat and good patience, but his lack of contact kills him. Nick Johnson was a similar prospect coming up at the very same time who suffered similar setbacks to Choi, but he is clearly the better hitter at this point in their respective careers.

 

As I said above, I really don't have any major issues with how the players from the farm (as a whole) have been used. I just wish the Cubs had been more aggressive in recent years overseas since they've lost so many draft picks. It is the feed into the system over recent years that I complain about...not the output from it.

I'm particularly frustrated with the Cubs lack of presence in the far east. In their few forays under Leon Lee, they managed to snag Choi and Jae Kuk Ryu, but since then, they've all but abadoned it. I don't know why an organization does not exhaust all possibilities when it comes to uncovering talent. Even if it does come down to an increase in the scouting budget, I'd much rather transfer an additional $5-10 million into scouting and development than spend it on roster slop like Neifi and Mabry.

 

As far as Hendry is concerned, my opinion of him has soured a bit. The farm system has taken a bit of a tumble in recent years (at least as seen by outsiders like BA) which, while perhaps understandable given trades, promotions and the peculiarities of the plexiglass principle, isn't helped when he's wasting draft picks by signing less than stellar free agents. He's gun shy when it comes to the big-ticket free agents, but spends lavishly on players who are potentially replaceable by lower cost options.

 

There are things I like about Hendry. He's been particularly good when it comes to trades. The acquisitions of Aramis and Derrek Lee have been swindles. He has been agressive in making big deals in the midst of a pennant race (the Cubs don't win the division in 2003 without Lofton and getting Nomar was absolutely the right move at the time - oh yeah, that Murton kid seems like he can play some, too). He seems to have an eye for spotting talented enigmas and making them work (Michael Barrett, Matt Clement, Ryan Dempster) and the young players he has given up in trades (with one notable exception) have yet to come back to haunt him. Unlike some previous Cub GMs, I never get the sense that he is sitting on his laurels. He seems like a hard working, go-getter type of general manager.

 

But the fact remains, the Cubs dissapointed at both the major and minor league level last year. While the big club limped to a 79-83 record, the minor leagues saw plenty of pitching injuries and highly touted prospects like Ryan Harvey and Brian Dopirak regress. So while I'm still open to the idea of giving Hendry an extension, I'd much rather wait and see how the season develops. Is it a potential distraction? Perhaps, but until somebody gives me any evidence that such things affect play on the field one way or the other, who cares? If anything, that type of thing serves as a rallying point for the players on the field.

 

On the other hand, if the Cubs were to dump Hendry, the alternative could be (and probably would be) worse. So I guess we should all be happy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

[mhuber92211]

So if I understand this correctly, Hendry's biggest fault as the GM is the thinning of the farm system. Shouldn't we be blaming that on his sucessor rather then him considering it was Hendry that built the farm system to the heights that it tumbled from?

 

For those Hendry detractors I am curious as to the specific things that Hendry has done wrong with. Thus far I have read that he misfired on FA acquistions thinned the farm system (?), and overpaid for mediocrity.

 

IMO the contracts he has been accused of overpaying for were small to begin with and had little effect on the overall payroll or team. I can't think of one core player the Hendry overpaid. Regardless of whether we think that a particular player is overpaid (i.e. Jones) the contracts are always (seemingly) at market value. Jones got similar money as Encarncion and other FA middle of the road OF. Look at Howry's contract compared to Farnsworth. Should we be upset with Hendry's contracts or the market that creates them?

[Mark_R]

People would be beside themselves (at both ends of the spectrum) if Farns would return.

[XZero771679666304]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

With all due repsect, I don't think you can classify LF and CF asa "complete offensive disaster". Last year, yes. This year, no. Say what you will about RF, but to call this year's entire OF a "disaster" is a bit hyperbolic.

[Blueheart05]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

I think it's too early to say that the OF is a complete disaster. They may not have the ability to put up big power numbers but they can still be productive and help the team win.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

I think it's too early to say that the OF is a complete disaster. They may not have the ability to put up big power numbers but they can still be productive and help the team win.

 

It's going to take career years from the entire outfield for the outfield to be much good.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

With all due repsect, I don't think you can classify LF and CF asa "complete offensive disaster". Last year, yes. This year, no. Say what you will about RF, but to call this year's entire OF a "disaster" is a bit hyperbolic.

 

They aren't going to be very good offensively, especially if Murton doesn't hit for a lot of power. LF and CF are the two strongest parts, but neither is all that impressive and having one of them as your best production from an OF spot is embarrassing.

[XZero771679666304]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

With all due repsect, I don't think you can classify LF and CF asa "complete offensive disaster". Last year, yes. This year, no. Say what you will about RF, but to call this year's entire OF a "disaster" is a bit hyperbolic.

 

They aren't going to be very good offensively, especially if Murton doesn't hit for a lot of power. LF and CF are the two strongest parts, but neither is all that impressive and having one of them as your best production from an OF spot is embarrassing.

 

Embarassing? Last year's OF was emabrassing. This year's projects to be mediocre.

[Blueheart05]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

I think it's too early to say that the OF is a complete disaster. They may not have the ability to put up big power numbers but they can still be productive and help the team win.

 

It's going to take career years from the entire outfield for the outfield to be much good.

 

I disagree. If Pierre returns to his career norms, Murton provides consistent offense along the lines of his MiL and ML numbers, and Jones increases his numbers (not a career year but respectable) the team should be fine. I don't care what they hit in relation to other OF in the League, if they get hits, walks, RBI, during their turn in the batters box they will be productive and the team will benefit.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

With all due repsect, I don't think you can classify LF and CF asa "complete offensive disaster". Last year, yes. This year, no. Say what you will about RF, but to call this year's entire OF a "disaster" is a bit hyperbolic.

 

They aren't going to be very good offensively, especially if Murton doesn't hit for a lot of power. LF and CF are the two strongest parts, but neither is all that impressive and having one of them as your best production from an OF spot is embarrassing.

 

Embarassing? Last year's OF was emabrassing. This year's projects to be mediocre.

 

That's not what I wrote. I said it was embarrassing that Murton or Pierre is going to be our most productive OF.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

I think it's too early to say that the OF is a complete disaster. They may not have the ability to put up big power numbers but they can still be productive and help the team win.

 

It's going to take career years from the entire outfield for the outfield to be much good.

 

I disagree. If Pierre returns to his career norms, Murton provides consistent offense along the lines of his MiL and ML numbers, and Jones increases his numbers (not a career year but respectable) the team should be fine. I don't care what they hit in relation to other OF in the League, if they get hits, walks, RBI, during their turn in the batters box they will be productive and the team will benefit.

 

What are the odds of that happening? Probably similar if not less likely than Murton slumping and posting an OPS around .700-.330, Pierre continuing his '05 struggles, and Jones continuing to be awful for a corner OF. You essentially said if the best case scenario happens then we'll be alright, which is obviously true. There's very little chance we see that, and it's why our outfield is going to be decidedly mediocre offensively.

[Blueheart05]

Hendry has ripped peoples faces off in trades. His free agent signings have been hit and miss. He is a strong GM. Time will till how high to rate him. Fantasy predictions of what we should have got , are exactly that fantasy. Coach L

 

Is it fantasy to want an outfield that isn't a complete offensive disaster two years running? Or to have a semblance of international scouting anymore? Or to stop overpaying in money in years for middle relievers?

 

I think it's too early to say that the OF is a complete disaster. They may not have the ability to put up big power numbers but they can still be productive and help the team win.

 

It's going to take career years from the entire outfield for the outfield to be much good.

 

I disagree. If Pierre returns to his career norms, Murton provides consistent offense along the lines of his MiL and ML numbers, and Jones increases his numbers (not a career year but respectable) the team should be fine. I don't care what they hit in relation to other OF in the League, if they get hits, walks, RBI, during their turn in the batters box they will be productive and the team will benefit.

 

What are the odds of that happening? Probably similar if not less likely than Murton slumping and posting an OPS around .700-.330, Pierre continuing his '05 struggles, and Jones continuing to be awful for a corner OF. You essentially said if the best case scenario happens then we'll be alright, which is obviously true. There's very little chance we see that, and it's why our outfield is going to be decidedly mediocre offensively.

 

 

If I'm looking for the best case scenario you are being way too conservative and pessimistic about their ability to contribute. Even if Jones has a "bad" year it shouldn't be too different than Encarnacion's overall numbers. The Cubs can win with them whether they are mediocre or not.

 

The Cardinals aren't running out world beaters in the OF; with the exception of Edmonds, there is nothing special. It will be their pitching, and the presence of their middle of the order hitters, that will decide their season. Similarly, if the Cubs manage to pitch well their offense should be enough on most days.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Blueheart05

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Expecting that those players won't continue along their career norms is being pessimistic. Even if Jones has a "bad" year it shouldn't be too different than Encarnacion's overall numbers.

 

The Cubs can win with them whether they are mediocre or not. The Cardinals aren't running out world beaters in the OF; with the exception of Edmonds, there is nothing special. It will be their pitching, and the presence of their middle of the order hitters, that will decide their season. Similarly, if the Cubs manage to pitch well their offense should be enough on most days.

 

I didn't say to expect the players to dip below career norms, I'm saying that it's as likely as all of them playing over your heads, which you stipluated in the previous post. The Cards have a merely okay outfield, but it's still superior to ours, check the thread in Rivalries.

 

And of course, the Cubs can win with an outfield like that, it just makes things more difficult. With the resources Hendry has, it's not too much to ask that the outfield be better than it is.

[Blueheart05]

Expecting that those players won't continue along their career norms is being pessimistic. Even if Jones has a "bad" year it shouldn't be too different than Encarnacion's overall numbers.

 

The Cubs can win with them whether they are mediocre or not. The Cardinals aren't running out world beaters in the OF; with the exception of Edmonds, there is nothing special. It will be their pitching, and the presence of their middle of the order hitters, that will decide their season. Similarly, if the Cubs manage to pitch well their offense should be enough on most days.

 

I didn't say to expect the players to dip below career norms, I'm saying that it's as likely as all of them playing over your heads, which you stipluated in the previous post. The Cards have a merely okay outfield, but it's still superior to ours, check the thread in Rivalries.

 

And of course, the Cubs can win with an outfield like that, it just makes things more difficult. With the resources Hendry has, it's not too much to ask that the outfield be better than it is.

 

No, I said that if they play to their career norms the team will be fine, I didn't say anything about playing over their heads...

 

I disagree. If Pierre returns to his career norms, Murton provides consistent offense along the lines of his MiL and ML numbers, and Jones increases his numbers (not a career year but respectable) the team should be fine. I don't care what they hit in relation to other OF in the League, if they get hits, walks, RBI, during their turn in the batters box they will be productive and the team will benefit.

 

Murton has hit .300 or better at all levels of baseball. I expect he will end this year in that neighborhood if not slightly less due to an adjustment period. The other two are established and again, if they play to their norms they will provide plenty.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Expecting that those players won't continue along their career norms is being pessimistic. Even if Jones has a "bad" year it shouldn't be too different than Encarnacion's overall numbers.

 

The Cubs can win with them whether they are mediocre or not. The Cardinals aren't running out world beaters in the OF; with the exception of Edmonds, there is nothing special. It will be their pitching, and the presence of their middle of the order hitters, that will decide their season. Similarly, if the Cubs manage to pitch well their offense should be enough on most days.

 

I didn't say to expect the players to dip below career norms, I'm saying that it's as likely as all of them playing over your heads, which you stipluated in the previous post. The Cards have a merely okay outfield, but it's still superior to ours, check the thread in Rivalries.

 

And of course, the Cubs can win with an outfield like that, it just makes things more difficult. With the resources Hendry has, it's not too much to ask that the outfield be better than it is.

 

No, I said that if they play to their career norms the team will be fine, I didn't say anything about playing over their heads...

 

I disagree. If Pierre returns to his career norms, Murton provides consistent offense along the lines of his MiL and ML numbers, and Jones increases his numbers (not a career year but respectable) the team should be fine. I don't care what they hit in relation to other OF in the League, if they get hits, walks, RBI, during their turn in the batters box they will be productive and the team will benefit.

 

Jones playing better than he has the last several years would be playing over his head, as would Murton putting up an .830 OPS. Apologies with regards to Pierre, whose career averages are well below average(87 career OPS+, although he has played in some extreme parks so that probably has some wiggle room)

Edited April 5, 2006 by Transmogrified Tiger

[Mark_R]

If Pierre puts up a .360+ OBP, I'd be more than satisfied.

[Blueheart05]

Expecting that those players won't continue along their career norms is being pessimistic. Even if Jones has a "bad" year it shouldn't be too different than Encarnacion's overall numbers.

 

The Cubs can win with them whether they are mediocre or not. The Cardinals aren't running out world beaters in the OF; with the exception of Edmonds, there is nothing special. It will be their pitching, and the presence of their middle of the order hitters, that will decide their season. Similarly, if the Cubs manage to pitch well their offense should be enough on most days.

 

I didn't say to expect the players to dip below career norms, I'm saying that it's as likely as all of them playing over your heads, which you stipluated in the previous post. The Cards have a merely okay outfield, but it's still superior to ours, check the thread in Rivalries.

 

And of course, the Cubs can win with an outfield like that, it just makes things more difficult. With the resources Hendry has, it's not too much to ask that the outfield be better than it is.

 

No, I said that if they play to their career norms the team will be fine, I didn't say anything about playing over their heads...

 

I disagree. If Pierre returns to his career norms, Murton provides consistent offense along the lines of his MiL and ML numbers, and Jones increases his numbers (not a career year but respectable) the team should be fine. I don't care what they hit in relation to other OF in the League, if they get hits, walks, RBI, during their turn in the batters box they will be productive and the team will benefit.

 

Jones playing better than he has the last several years would be playing over his head, as would Murton putting up an .830 OPS. Apologies with regards to Pierre, who's career averages are well below average(87 career OPS+, although he has played in some extreme parks so that probably has some wiggle room)

 

No, it wouldn't be playing over Jones' head. I'm not talking about a career year, I'm talking about taking more walks (which he has increased over the last couple of years) and striking out a little less. Even if he has a low BA his OBP can be respectable. I'm also not talking about .830 OPS for Murton. My focus has been on his average and OBP. It's obvious that he is a patient hitter who will manage to get on base (whether he hits for power or not).

 

You said they were going to be a "complete disaster," this is where we disagree the most because you are focusing only on their SLG abilities. My point is that they don't have to be very powerful collectively if they are able to get on base via walk, hit, or other means.