[rjchapma]

Actually the angels were one of the worst run producing teams in the bigs. Or at least i've been told that when discussing about there lineup.

[srbin84]

Actually the angels were one of the worst run producing teams in the bigs. Or at least i've been told that when discussing about there lineup.

 

Colon got 6.02 runs per game last year and his bullpen blew zero saves for him.

[rjchapma]

Then im wrong Im sorry. When it comes down to a cy young award I just don't only consider ERA which is seems like you guys do.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Then im wrong Im sorry. When it comes down to a cy young award I just don't only consider ERA which is seems like you guys do.

 

We don't "only consider ERA", but we also don't only consider wins.

[srbin84]

Then im wrong Im sorry. When it comes down to a cy young award I just don't only consider ERA which is seems like you guys do.

 

I wouldn't give someone a Cy Young who had a worse ERA than other pitchers unless he won like 25 games or had a lot more innings/complete games.

[rjchapma]

It was between him and Santana last year. If it comes down to it I give the guy whos team is doing better and has more wins. As a whole probably Santana had a better season and for sure is the better pitcher. I think Colon deserved it though. Because wins is a big part in it.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It was between him and Santana last year. If it comes down to it I give the guy whos team is doing better and has more wins. As a whole probably Santana had a better season and for sure is the better pitcher. I think Colon deserved it though. Because wins is a big part in it.

 

That is a big problem with that award, like many others. The award was designed to go to the best pitcher, not the one whose team blew the fewest leads or scored more runs while he pitched. Colon is good, but there are better out there.

[BigbadB]

It was between him and Santana last year. If it comes down to it I give the guy whos team is doing better and has more wins. As a whole probably Santana had a better season and for sure is the better pitcher. I think Colon deserved it though. Because wins is a big part in it.

 

So, if Carlos Zambrano goes 18-8 next year with a 1.50 ERA on a Cub team that finishes in 4th place (a team that finished dead last in offensive production, hypothetically of course) and Chris Carpenter goes 20-6 with a 4.00 ERA on a team that finished in first, you would give the Cy Young to Chris Carpenter?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

W / ERA / IP / CG / SHO / BB / K / h9 / HR9 / BB9 / k9 / WHIP

 

Santana 16 / 2.87 / 231.2 / 3 / 2 / 45 / 238 / 6.99 / 0.85 / 1.75 / 9.25 / 0.97

 

Colon 21 / 3.48 / 222.2 / 2 / 0 / 43 / 157 / 8.69 / 1.05 / 1.74 / 6.35 / 1.16

 

 

How was Colon's 2005 season even remotely comparable to Santana's? Santana dominated every category but BB9 (approximately equal) and wins. Maybe they should start giving the Cy Young to the best offense in baseball.

[rjchapma]

I agree, but I still think he was second best at least in the AL last year. Burlehe was close 3 after him.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I agree, but I still think he was second best at least in the AL last year. Burlehe was close 3 after him.

 

This is interesting. Based on what??? A win total? M&PM just showed exactly how much better Santana was than Colon, and you still think Colon was the best pitcher in the AL last season?

[rjchapma]

no I said Santana was the better pitcher, but It's a know fact if your teams doing well you get the edge. Santana had a better year than Colon, but with everything factored in he deserved the Cy young.

[UBlink]

It was between him and Santana last year. If it comes down to it I give the guy whos team is doing better and has more wins. As a whole probably Santana had a better season and for sure is the better pitcher. I think Colon deserved it though. Because wins is a big part in it.

 

I think your criteria are similar to those used by most voting for the Cy Young, and that's the reason many discount the Cy Young as an award for the best pitcher. As I see it, you've established 3 criteria - pitching (ERA, K's, WHIP, etc.), wins and overall team success. Of those, only the first is mostly within the pitcher's control. Run support is a major factor in wins, and overall team success depends on the rest of the pitching staff as well as offense. Therefore, since Colon will not be bringing his run support or fellow pitchers, the Cy Young is basically irrelevant to the current discussion.

[rjchapma]

It was between him and Santana last year. If it comes down to it I give the guy whos team is doing better and has more wins. As a whole probably Santana had a better season and for sure is the better pitcher. I think Colon deserved it though. Because wins is a big part in it.

 

So, if Carlos Zambrano goes 18-8 next year with a 1.50 ERA on a Cub team that finishes in 4th place (a team that finished dead last in offensive production, hypothetically of course) and Chris Carpenter goes 20-6 with a 4.00 ERA on a team that finished in first, you would give the Cy Young to Chris Carpenter?

 

Yes Carpenter gets the edge. Thats the way the Award works.

[imb]

It was between him and Santana last year. If it comes down to it I give the guy whos team is doing better and has more wins. As a whole probably Santana had a better season and for sure is the better pitcher. I think Colon deserved it though. Because wins is a big part in it.

 

So, if Carlos Zambrano goes 18-8 next year with a 1.50 ERA on a Cub team that finishes in 4th place (a team that finished dead last in offensive production, hypothetically of course) and Chris Carpenter goes 20-6 with a 4.00 ERA on a team that finished in first, you would give the Cy Young to Chris Carpenter?

 

Yes Carpenter gets the edge. Thats the way the Award works.

 

then it's a broken and stupid award and there's no reason to pay any attention to it, unless youre a player or an agent.

[rjchapma]

Why are you guys so opposed to it?

[CaliforniaRaisin]

no I said Santana was the better pitcher, but It's a know fact if your teams doing well you get the edge. Santana had a better year than Colon, but with everything factored in he deserved the Cy young.

 

Who's the he in bold?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Why are you guys so opposed to it?

 

Opposed to what? You're singing Colon's praises simply because he won the award. We're pointing out how meaningless the award really is in determining who the best pitchers really are.

[rjchapma]

Cy young is the same thing as MVP the guy who is playing the best on the best team that is in the running will win. Lee had the best year last year yet Pujols won. His team didn't underachieve ours did.

[rjchapma]

No why are you so opposed to the award?

[rjchapma]

Colon did. According to the awards standards now.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Cy young is the same thing as MVP the guy who is playing the best on the best team that is in the running will win. Lee had the best year last year yet Pujols won. His team didn't underachieve ours did.

 

And that just shows how those two awards don't award the best individual players, making them a poor judge of individual talent.

[rjchapma]

I'm not disagreeing with you guys about that I'm just stating that if thats the criteria that he needed to meet to win the Cy young Colon accomplished it.

[srbin84]

I'm not disagreeing with you guys about that I'm just stating that if thats the criteria that he needed to meet to win the Cy young Colon accomplished it.

 

So you would have given it to Santana?

[UBlink]

This started out with this quote:

Venezula is a good team don't let me wrong, but I think the Dominican team is better.

 

Compare the rotations. The DR doesn't have much beyond Pedro. After Pedro, you have Daniel Cabrera, Bartolo Colon and Odalis Perez. Those guys don't even remotely compare to Zambrano, Santana and King Felix.

 

You then replied:

 

Colon just won Cy young I think he compares to Felix Hernandez come on.

 

So the objection isn't to the award (although that's certainly its own topic for debate), but to using the award as a reason to say the DR's pitching lineup is better than Venezuela's. And given the criteria you've given for the Cy Young, I think that's a valid criticism.