Rumor - Murton for Soriano?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Plain and simple. Soriano and hairston in LF is better than Murton in LF and walker. We need the big power for number 5 hole. Jones is no where near Soriano in that position. Unless you kind find a better 5 hitter than Soriano for Murton I make that deal.

 

It's not plain and it's not simple. Murton will likely out produce Hairston in every offensive metric. While Soriano would out slug Walker likely, his OBP would likely be 20-40 points lower. The overall effect on the team would likely be neutral.

 

Trading Murton to net Soriano is plain foolishness. In all likelihood, the offense would be similar in production while the payroll is 10 million higher and you lose the future player in Murton while watching Soriano walk in the offseason.

 

It's a shortsighted move that adds little or nothing to the overall production of the team.

[Lefty]

His on base percentage doesn't matter when hes putting up those power numbers. You guys care way to much about OBP and stuff like that isnt't a big part of a power number hitters part on a team. He also can run and is a 30/30 guy which Nefi can't do. Believe me he will have a much better and productive year this year than Murton.

 

You are so wrong. Getting on base is essential to scoring runs. Why don't you check Soriano's road stats as well.

 

And the fact that Murton makes $9 million less than Soriano does matter. RBIs are not a real stat. So Soriano at 30 HRs and a .250 average and no walks makes him worse than Burnitz offensively and terrrible defensively. Soriano would be a disaster. Don't be bamboozled by meaningless numbers.

 

How was Texas 15th in obp and 3rd in runs??

 

 

They play in the best hitters park in the AL. On the road they were nothing special. And Soriano was maybe the fourth best offensive player on the team. Let's not get carried away.

[noisesquared]

it might also be a good idea to figure out how many runs were scored at home compared to on the road.

 

Runs at home - 469 (278/341/509/850)

Runs away - 396 (258/318/430/747)

 

This tells me if the Rangers had played all their games on the road, they'd still have been 3rd in runs scored, although by a much smaller margin (Cleveland was 4th at 790 runs).

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

If we're trying to get rid of Walker b/c of his mouth and his D, why on earth would we replace him with Soriano, who is even worse defensively and isn't much of a team player (e.g. not moving to the OF in Washington).

[TheRaven]

If we're trying to get rid of Walker b/c of his mouth and his D, why on earth would we replace him with Soriano, who is even worse defensively and isn't much of a team player (e.g. not moving to the OF in Washington).

 

Because Soriano used to play next to Derek Jeter, who we all know is the most clutch player of all time..

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

If we're trying to get rid of Walker b/c of his mouth and his D, why on earth would we replace him with Soriano, who is even worse defensively and isn't much of a team player (e.g. not moving to the OF in Washington).

 

Because Soriano used to play next to Derek Jeter, who we all know is the most clutch player of all time..

 

clutchness is indeed contagious.

[CubfaninCA]

it might also be a good idea to figure out how many runs were scored at home compared to on the road.

 

Runs at home - 469 (278/341/509/850)

Runs away - 396 (258/318/430/747)

 

This tells me if the Rangers had played all their games on the road, they'd still have been 3rd in runs scored, although by a much smaller margin (Cleveland was 4th at 790 runs).

 

Actually they'd be 7th overall (right behind St. Louis), if you just go by runs on the road. Of course, to be fair, you have factor in they play lots of games in Oakland, Anaheim & Seattle.

[Jehrico]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

 

What kind of question is this? there's a budget. Paying more in contracts means we're closer to maxing out that budget (or, maybe, we're already close enough that we can't go that much higher anyway).

 

That's like saying "I make $50k a year, what difference does it make if I eat at McDonalds each day or Rosebud each day for this entire month, since the total costs will each be a small percentage of my income for the year."

 

"Maxing out" for who? Matt Lawton was the best guy available last trade deadline. Last I saw, the Cubs are at $96 million. They can afford to go to $105.

They picked up Nomar (and Murton) the year before because they had flexibility. They got Aramis the year before that, because they had the financial flexibility.

 

But you're right, all we got last year was Lawton, we shouldn't worry about being able to pick up a big bat midseason.

[NorthsideAvenger]

If we're trying to get rid of Walker b/c of his mouth and his D, why on earth would we replace him with Soriano, who is even worse defensively and isn't much of a team player (e.g. not moving to the OF in Washington).

 

Because Soriano used to play next to Derek Jeter, who we all know is the most clutch player of all time..

 

People who clamored for Soriano, are those who continue to buy in the hype that Soriano is actually good.

[goonys evil twin]

If we're trying to get rid of Walker b/c of his mouth and his D, why on earth would we replace him with Soriano, who is even worse defensively and isn't much of a team player (e.g. not moving to the OF in Washington).

 

Because Soriano used to play next to Derek Jeter, who we all know is the most clutch player of all time..

 

People who clamored for Soriano, are those who continue to buy in the hype that Soriano is actually good.

 

I believe Soriano is good, and could be a useful asset to a team if used properly. But he's far from great, and not worth giving up a guy like Murton, who could give you same or similar production at a fraction of the cost, and without all the BS "I won't go to the OF" talk, or threats of leaving to the AL next year.

 

Not only would it suck to trade a lot for him only to have him leave after one year, it would also suck to give up a lot for him and then pay him his next contract which is likely to be over $10m per year for several years for production that won't come close to justifying that money.

[EricG]

A deal for prospects for Soriano would likely backfire. The Sexton trade the D-Backs made a couple years ago made the Brewers a competitor in the division and Sexton walked after getting injured. Every D-Backs fan I know is still mad about that trade and want no part of trading Chad Tracy.

 

The best we can hope for is to start the season with the starters (Walker/Cedeno/Murton/etc) in place and pick up a bat at the deadline for prospects to replace an injured/slumping player.

[RynoRules]

A deal for prospects for Soriano would likely backfire. The Sexton trade the D-Backs made a couple years ago made the Brewers a competitor in the division and Sexton walked after getting injured. Every D-Backs fan I know is still mad about that trade and want no part of trading Chad Tracy.

 

The best we can hope for is to start the season with the starters (Walker/Cedeno/Murton/etc) in place and pick up a bat at the deadline for prospects to replace an injured/slumping player.

 

The D-Backs traded for a sexton? No wonder they stink. "GIS" for sexton:

 

http://www.freehomepages.com/bdk/Sexton.jpg

 

That thing can't play 1B or hit cleanup!

[CubfaninCA]

I like Murton, but he's far from an untouchable. He may not be more than a .750 ops LF. Ideally, you want more pop from LF. If it was Pie for Soriano, I'd be adamantly opposed. However, Murton's not a big loss. The Cubs could always sign Cliff Floyd for LF for 2007.

[EricG]

A deal for prospects for Soriano would likely backfire. The Sexton trade the D-Backs made a couple years ago made the Brewers a competitor in the division and Sexton walked after getting injured. Every D-Backs fan I know is still mad about that trade and want no part of trading Chad Tracy.

 

The best we can hope for is to start the season with the starters (Walker/Cedeno/Murton/etc) in place and pick up a bat at the deadline for prospects to replace an injured/slumping player.

 

The D-Backs traded for a sexton? No wonder they stink. "GIS" for sexton:

 

http://www.freehomepages.com/bdk/Sexton.jpg

 

 

That thing can't play 1B or hit cleanup!

 

Okay Richie Sexson

[goonys evil twin]

I like Murton, but he's far from an untouchable. He may not be more than a .750 ops LF. Ideally, you want more pop from LF. If it was Pie for Soriano, I'd be adamantly opposed. However, Murton's not a big loss. The Cubs could always sign Cliff Floyd for LF for 2007.

 

Murton is a big loss on this team since he's likely the best OF on the team.

[Jehrico]

Trading Murton for Soriano would be tantamount to trading our best outfielder with no replacement in the wings for a marginal upgrade (if that) at 2B.

 

Regardless of whether you think Soriano has value or not (which I don't), it's a dumb move, period.

[Dr. Cub]

Not likely mind you, but a possibility nonetheless.

 

If it's not likely, why would you ever say "Murton will hit 30 HR this year".

 

Maybe we're just arguing semantics.

 

No, personally, I believe that the difference between "Murton will hit 30 HR this year" and "Murton won't hit 30 HR this year" isn't semantics.

 

What exactly does a 30 HR physique look like? Something like Chase Utley? Or maybe Biggio? Maybe Morgan Ensberg is closer? Saying Murton doesn't have a 30 HR physique or a 30 HR anything seems very abstract and meaningless, to me at least.

 

Which is why I included it only as a secondary argument thrown in at the end.

 

It's called scouting by the way. And it works, to an extent. It has limitations. But so do statistics.

 

Don't need to [expletive]-foot around it or anything.

 

First bolded part: Please show me where I wrote this.

 

So it was TheGilesBros that said it. You just took the baton from him and ran with it without me noticing. Sorry. And your argument is slightly different, even if it's based on the exact same flawed premise that, as you yourself put it, "He had 140 AB's with 7 HR. If you extend those numbers over the season he could reach 560 AB's with 28 HR."

 

So direct the first bolded part to Giles then.

 

Second bolded part: As far as semantics go, I was referring to when Raven wrote "stretch". Did you seriously not understand that?

 

No, here's what you originally wrote to me...

 

I suggested that statistically, his increases would suggest that it wouldn't be a stretch for 30 HR. Not likely mind you, but a possibility nonetheless. Maybe we're just arguing semantics.

 

Thinking that it was you that originally had said "Murton will hit 30 HR this year", I wrote what I did.

 

You wrote something else about semantics to Raven.

 

There really was no need to add the numbers up and do simple arithmetic for me.

 

Why not? You questioned my numbers, all I did was show you how I arrived at them.

 

You simply could have pointed out that I used AB instead of PA when looking at 2005, and then used those numbers against what you had for the previous years.

 

I don't know, something tells me it wouldn't have gotten through quite as effectively as what I did end up posting. I mean, now you're not questioning my numbers and saying stuff like "if Murton's power increased by the same amount as it did between 2004 and 2005 he'd hit 25 HR in a full season next year", which you did say, and which was wrong unless you think that Murton will get 755 plate appearances next year.

 

What is this new-fangled "scouting" you speak of?

 

Hey, you brought the subject up with your "very abstract and meaningless" comment.

 

You didn't invent being condescending, but my, you sure are good at it.

 

Thanks, I practice regularly on stupid arguments.

 

Murton will not hit 30 HR this year.

 

Sorry, but it wasn't a compliment. Regardless if you're correct or incorrect about a point it makes you a complete ass. What's really sad is that I've read a ton of your posts on this board (and gained some great insight along the way) and you have a lot of great knowledge that many would appreciate. However, too often it appears it's only presented to belittle someone else or "prove" your correct. No discussion really; just your snide, vile remarks that do nothing good.

 

I'm sure you'll come back at me with a wickedly clever, condescending remark, and that's okay. I used to be the exact same way, and then I realized one day that being a caustic ass was doing nothing to improve my life. I hope you see that soon also.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Gammons has some interesting comments on the Soriano situation in his blog today.

 

Link

 

First of all, it doesn't appear that Soriano is any more agreeable to a position switich now than he has been all winter.

 

Jose Rijo, a special assistant to general manager Jim Bowden, talked to Soriano Tuesday night when he got to his hotel in Cocoa Beach, and delivered the message to the indefatigable general manager: "Not good," Rijo said. "Prepare for Plan B."

 

I found this statement shocking, and it further shows how delusional Bowden is:

 

 

As Soriano drew the line between second base and left field, Bowden realized he could have a problem. He's talked to teams about trades, and offered three different Cincinnati GMs Soriano for Adam Dunn.

:shock:

 

Newsflash to Bowden...."It will take a lot more than Soriano to net Adam Dunn."

 

But for those who clamor for Soriano, yet discount Walker because of his defense, read this:

 

His Texas coaches insist Soriano is the worst defensive second baseman in the game. They also don't think he'll be a good left fielder.

 

"He can't catch popups, why should he be able to go back on fly balls?" asks one Rangers coach. Another Rangers official is concerned that his lack of concentration will get worse in left field with nothing going on. Then there's the 1.011/.639 (with .265 OBP) home/road OPS split as he goes from a great hitters' park to one of the toughest.

 

 

That's not a player we need, especially if it's going to cost us Murton.

[brinoch]

Please. Argue about the contents of the post, not about the poster. If you have any questions, please check the posting guidelines, which are linked in my sig.

[Dr. Cub]

Please. Argue about the contents of the post, not about the poster. If you have any questions, please check the posting guidelines, which are linked in my sig.

 

The contents of the post include much disrespect.

[BigbadB]

Brinoch's response wasn't directed at you only. It was to anyone not following NSBB guidelines. If someone is showing you much disrespect, forward the post to a mod and let them take care of it. Taking care of it yourself will only get you in just as much trouble as the person who started it.

[CubfaninCA]

Gammons has some interesting comments on the Soriano situation in his blog today.

 

Link

 

First of all, it doesn't appear that Soriano is any more agreeable to a position switich now than he has been all winter.

 

Jose Rijo, a special assistant to general manager Jim Bowden, talked to Soriano Tuesday night when he got to his hotel in Cocoa Beach, and delivered the message to the indefatigable general manager: "Not good," Rijo said. "Prepare for Plan B."

 

I found this statement shocking, and it further shows how delusional Bowden is:

 

 

As Soriano drew the line between second base and left field, Bowden realized he could have a problem. He's talked to teams about trades, and offered three different Cincinnati GMs Soriano for Adam Dunn.

:shock:

 

Newsflash to Bowden...."It will take a lot more than Soriano to net Adam Dunn."

 

But for those who clamor for Soriano, yet discount Walker because of his defense, read this:

 

His Texas coaches insist Soriano is the worst defensive second baseman in the game. They also don't think he'll be a good left fielder.

 

"He can't catch popups, why should he be able to go back on fly balls?" asks one Rangers coach. Another Rangers official is concerned that his lack of concentration will get worse in left field with nothing going on. Then there's the 1.011/.639 (with .265 OBP) home/road OPS split as he goes from a great hitters' park to one of the toughest.

 

 

That's not a player we need, especially if it's going to cost us Murton.

 

Since I'm a betting man, I bet Vidro's gone soon. They gave up too much to get Soriano. The Cubs need to stay far away from Vidro. They've had way too many guys like him recently. He'll be on the DL by May.

[goonys evil twin]

Since I'm a betting man, I bet Vidro's gone soon. They gave up too much to get Soriano. The Cubs need to stay far away from Vidro. They've had way too many guys like him recently. He'll be on the DL by May.

 

If they can get him on the cheap, and get something of value for Walker, I'd be much more satisfied with the 2B depth chart of Vidro, Hairston, Perez, instead of Hairston, Perez.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Since I'm a betting man, I bet Vidro's gone soon. They gave up too much to get Soriano. The Cubs need to stay far away from Vidro. They've had way too many guys like him recently. He'll be on the DL by May.

 

If they can get him on the cheap, and get something of value for Walker, I'd be much more satisfied with the 2B depth chart of Vidro, Hairston, Perez, instead of Hairston, Perez.

 

I envision that to be a rather big if.

[goonys evil twin]

Since I'm a betting man, I bet Vidro's gone soon. They gave up too much to get Soriano. The Cubs need to stay far away from Vidro. They've had way too many guys like him recently. He'll be on the DL by May.

 

If they can get him on the cheap, and get something of value for Walker, I'd be much more satisfied with the 2B depth chart of Vidro, Hairston, Perez, instead of Hairston, Perez.

 

I envision that to be a rather big if.

 

Probably.