Scouts Honor

[CubDad4Ever]

New book by Bill Shanks, Profiling scouts as the reason behind the unparralled success of the Atlanta Braves (no team in pro sports has won more flags in succession) It takes on "moneyball " hardcore. Dealing specifcally with "player makeup" evalution process and modalites and tools they utilize . Their develoupment process for their farm is also discussed . They flat out say they were offended by moneyballs narrow view, and Their sample size of success blows the A,s out of the water. I personnally argue , as i did when defending balance in evaluation think the truth lies in between the two books. Im only 100 pages in , I will detail any other info i feel is germain to the discussion . Its nice to read another view after as many great numbers related books as i have consumed in the past two years. This book should spark some necessary discussion between the scouting and numbers based analysis community. Both have value. God Bless you all. Coach L

[wekse]

New book by Bill Shanks, Profiling scouts as the reason behind the unparralled success of the Atlanta Braves (no team in pro sports has won more flags in succession) It takes on "moneyball " hardcore. Dealing specifcally with "player makeup" evalution process and modalites and tools they utilize . Their develoupment process for their farm is also discussed . They flat out say they were offended by moneyballs narrow view, and Their sample size of success blows the A,s out of the water. I personnally argue , as i did when defending balance in evaluation think the truth lies in between the two books. Im only 100 pages in , I will detail any other info i feel is germain to the discussion . Its nice to read another view after as many great numbers related books as i have consumed in the past two years. This book should spark some necessary discussion between the scouting and numbers based analysis community. Both have value. God Bless you all. Coach L

 

 

are you a bot that has been sent here to make everyone believe that scouts are important to the game?

[CubDad4Ever]

No my friend , are you fearful someone might spoil your narrow range of analysis . Maybe a bit harsh , but fitting given your response. Stick to the facts not sarcasm. God Bless Coach L

[wekse]

No my friend , are you fearful someone might spoil your narrow range of analysis . Maybe a bit harsh , but fitting given your response. Stick to the facts not sarcasm. God Bless Coach L

 

don't tell me what i need to do...and why must you feel the need to judge me? god bless indeed!

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Since I'm on record as saying the Braves have the best run front office in baseball, I'm looking forawrd to this book. I'm also looking forward to reading Sherholtz (sp?) when it comes out.

[CubDad4Ever]

Nice try, i wont get in a pissing match with you, I will feel as free to express my views as anyone else on this board. If you dont wish to read them or they aggrevate you dont read them. God Bless you indeed . Thats why i use the words i chose and not the ones my foul human nature wanted to use. May your day be Blessed CoachL

[wekse]

Nice try, i wont get in a pissing match with you, I will feel as free to express my views as anyone else on this board. If you dont wish to read them or they aggrevate you dont read them. God Bless you indeed . Thats why i use the words i chose and not the ones my foul human nature wanted to use. May your day be Blessed CoachL

 

who said i wanted to get into a "pissing match" with you...i made a joke, you insulted my viewpoint so i struck back....also, the holier than thou bull is a bit tired imo.

[CoolHandLuke]

This book is definately on my list of baseball books to read. I got "The book on the book" and "Weaver on Strategy" on the way though so It will be a little bit before I get the chance.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Yeah...it will be May or June before I make it around to this one. I still have The Book on the Book, Twice Around the Bases, and a couple others that I got for Christmas to complete before I buy anything new. Considering I'll also pick up BA's handbook and Sickel's book should arrive next month, my reading list is packed right now.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

That sounds really interesting. So does Weaver on Strategy, and I've heard good and bad stuff on The Book on the Book. May have to snag that when I order the Prospect Handbook.

[Magnetic Curses]

New book by Bill Shanks, Profiling scouts as the reason behind the unparralled success of the Atlanta Braves (no team in pro sports has won more flags in succession) It takes on "moneyball " hardcore. Dealing specifcally with "player makeup" evalution process and modalites and tools they utilize . Their develoupment process for their farm is also discussed . They flat out say they were offended by moneyballs narrow view, and Their sample size of success blows the A,s out of the water. I personnally argue , as i did when defending balance in evaluation think the truth lies in between the two books. Im only 100 pages in , I will detail any other info i feel is germain to the discussion . Its nice to read another view after as many great numbers related books as i have consumed in the past two years. This book should spark some necessary discussion between the scouting and numbers based analysis community. Both have value. God Bless you all. Coach L

 

the braves won with pitching, not hitting, as have the a's. but considering that, historically, the chasm between the two, monetarily speaking, would more than make up for the lack of sample size on the part of the a's.

 

beane has done just as much with less cash. schuerholz is still probably the best GM in the game, but beane is not far behind, no matter how many flat-earth theorists want to discredit him.

 

and if you felt that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, you wouldn't keep bringing the subject up so much. just let it go.

 

the reason the cubs couldn't score runs last year was due to the fact that they were bad at not making outs, pure and simple.

[CubDad4Ever]

Sully , good points and i will get to the crux of the book and its applications to the cubs . (based on what i have read so far . As far as my including the A,s i believe i used them as a very necessary reference point. The book goes after moneyball . Head to head comparrison is both appropriate and necessary given the fact moneyball attacked scouting with the same fervor. I am not even close to a scout oriented person. I stick to the facts. I actully was so pissed after the cubs blew game 6 in 2003 , i blasted my wifes antique table with a soccer ball. ( nice work by me) . I blamed baker for all evils . I am acutally more inclined to numbers.

But as a high school coach and mentor of athletes , i realized i was going against what i use , which is all modalites of analysis in a non emotional fasion. I digress. This book is giving me a great concept of what i alread felt . Hendrys is totally using the Braves model . I will write more details later . I have to go to class. Sorry again for the times i have engaged in being to argumenitive. My faith always brings me back. God Bless you all. Thanks for your input to Vance . you are always an enjoyable read. Coach L.

[Magnetic Curses]

Hendrys is totally using the Braves model .

 

then he's totally not good at it.

[goonys evil twin]

Hendrys is totally using the Braves model .

 

then he's totally not good at it.

 

Hendry is like the 12-year old kid who spends all his waking hours reading about fighter jets. He knows a whole lot of info on them, but when he builds that model, no matter how much time and energy he put into it, the thing still doesn't compare to the real thing made by General Dynamics.

[Magnetic Curses]

Hendrys is totally using the Braves model .

 

then he's totally not good at it.

 

Hendry is like the 12-year old kid who spends all his waking hours reading about fighter jets. He knows a whole lot of info on them, but when he builds that model, no matter how much time and energy he put into it, the thing still doesn't compare to the real thing made by General Dynamics.

 

yep, for one, the mouth decal is upside down, there's glue coming out of the nose propeller, the wing is crooked, the bottom turret is coming off and the kid seems more and more enamoured with the tube of glue than the actual plane.

[goonys evil twin]

Hendrys is totally using the Braves model .

 

then he's totally not good at it.

 

Hendry is like the 12-year old kid who spends all his waking hours reading about fighter jets. He knows a whole lot of info on them, but when he builds that model, no matter how much time and energy he put into it, the thing still doesn't compare to the real thing made by General Dynamics.

 

yep, for one, the mouth decal is upside down, there's glue coming out of the nose propeller, the wing is crooked, the bottom turret is coming off and the kid seems more and more enamoured with the tube of glue than the actual plane.

 

But more importantly, it doesn't fly or blow things up.

[Magnetic Curses]

Hendrys is totally using the Braves model .

 

then he's totally not good at it.

 

Hendry is like the 12-year old kid who spends all his waking hours reading about fighter jets. He knows a whole lot of info on them, but when he builds that model, no matter how much time and energy he put into it, the thing still doesn't compare to the real thing made by General Dynamics.

 

yep, for one, the mouth decal is upside down, there's glue coming out of the nose propeller, the wing is crooked, the bottom turret is coming off and the kid seems more and more enamoured with the tube of glue than the actual plane.

 

But more importantly, it doesn't fly or blow things up.

 

it's just not very good at what it's supposed to do.

[CubDad4Ever]

Good Points guys. I do think we need to do two things. Let this year and next shake out. The context we evaluate it in is also important. The cubs were coming off 2 90 plus loss seasons when Hendry took the reigns with Dusty. ( i know he was farm director) This run has been the best 3 year run since the early 70,s. The Braves in the book so far preach the following tennents. 1. Take HS pitching in the draft. Always get back pitching in a trade. Use Tryout camps to get a jump on evaluting hs talent. Be paitent with system in general , dont panic. Be paitent with pitchers in system ( draft make up as well as tools) make pitchers learn to pitch (increased pitch repirtoire, handling loads) while not worrying as much about their numbers early on. Hire more scouts , instructors and coaches. Stay away from Free Agents. Sacrifice a season or two if necessary , dont stray from the plan. Some of this Hendry does to a T. His emphasis on pitchers has paid dividends. Where do you guys think we stand according to this plan. I love your input. Im still only 120 pages into the book (crappy need to have a job) God Bless and thanks Coach L

[goonys evil twin]

Good Points guys. I do think we need to do two things. Let this year and next shake out.

 

I can see why somebody would want to see this year shake out, but there's no way to justify waiting for after 2007 as well. Hendry has had more than enough time to make this team great, and he hasn't come close. More importantly, Andy and the gang have had plenty of time to turn this team from perennial failure to perrenial winner, and they have not done it. I don't care if their backtoback winning seasons was better than anything since the 70s, calling that some sort of accomplishment is just exposing your lowered expectations and accepting mediocrity.

 

The time for change is now, not in two years. It's like looking at Neifi Perez. I don't need two more years of watching him fail as a regular to prove to me the Cubs need somebody else playing his position.

[Drew Doughty]

I don't think Hendry picks up on pitchers because of the Braves, he picks up on pitchers because "pitching wins." I think he can definitely throw seasons away well, so I agree there. He does avoid good free agents but overpays for mediocrity.

 

I don't see anything that really puts Hendry on par with Schuerholz in strategy.

[CubDad4Ever]

Some good points by both of you. Gooney i have to respectfully disagree with your labeling of context as accepting mediocrety. Context when long term planning must be taken into consideration. I am by nature and job extremly competitive, but given that context i have learned through many mistakes in 23 years of coaching that paitent sticking to a plan is both difficult and necessary.

Im not saying Hendry has aced his jog or wont or should not get fired. I think he has done an excellent job in producing pitching prospects through the variety of channels available. He has also struggled to meet some of the obvious offensive needs. I still think the team is on the right track . I am very realistic in knowing they may not get the time they need to finish the job.

Pressure to win based on years of frustration we all feel. Management faces a difficult challenge in making changes without panic or gross devation from their plan.

I dont know how it will work out . But i as i have since 1970 be watching with passionate interest. Thanks for the great insight guys. God Bless. Coach L

[goonys evil twin]

Some good points by both of you. Gooney i have to respectfully disagree with your labeling of context as accepting mediocrety. Context when long term planning must be taken into consideration. I am by nature and job extremly competitive, but given that context i have learned through many mistakes in 23 years of coaching that paitent sticking to a plan is both difficult and necessary.

Im not saying Hendry has aced his jog or wont or should not get fired. I think he has done an excellent job in producing pitching prospects through the variety of channels available. He has also struggled to meet some of the obvious offensive needs. I still think the team is on the right track . I am very realistic in knowing they may not get the time they need to finish the job.

Pressure to win based on years of frustration we all feel. Management faces a difficult challenge in making changes without panic or gross devation from their plan.

I dont know how it will work out . But i as i have since 1970 be watching with passionate interest. Thanks for the great insight guys. God Bless. Coach L

 

This regime, and its "context" has been around since 1994, how much longer do you need to come to a conclusion?

[CubDad4Ever]

Goony , my goal is not to diminish your angst, most days i have enough trouble knocking back my own . I could be wrong but the current set up with Hendry GM , Dusty manager , right or wrong has been together since 2003. MacPhail has been part of this equation also , I take it your referring to him in relation to 93. DUDE i may need you to pull me back off the ledge if the cubs stink this year and they are playing two guys with sub 300 obps. I might change my handle to Punch Dustys Ticket. The point is the year must shake out to see if any progress in the plan is showing . God Bless and i feel your pain brother Dave L

[BigbadB]

I don't know how anyone can say Hendry is on the right track, offensively.

 

At the end of the 2006 season Lee, Wood, Williamson, Barrett, Pierre and Walker can all leave via free agency. Aramis can opt out of his contract at the end of next season. Maddux will be gone. How exactly do they replace all those guys if they decide to test the market? Who does that leave on offense?

 

Actually, I'm not certain on Barrett. But, if he is a free agent at the end of this year, here is what we have to work with in 2007.

 

Murton, Jones, Cedeno, Perez. Add Barrett if he's not a free agent next year and it's still a skeleton of an offense.

 

I don't see how this is being on the right track. A quick search of the free agent list for 2007 leaves a lot to be desired. A look at how depleted the farm is now due to poor trades and management of the 40 man roster doesn't provide a whole lot of hope for trades to improve the team next offseason.

 

If Murton and Cedeno bust, there is nothing left for this team on the offensive side except hope that Felix Pie will pan out.

 

That's obviously worst case scenario, but I don't understand how anyone can be frustrated with a few of us who haven't been the slightest bit pleased with the way this offseason has gone.

 

I suppose I could attempt to take the optimistic approach. But, what is there to be optimistic about? That Cedeno will play just good enough to keep Neifi on the bench? That Jones will have a career year? That when one of Jones or Murton become injured, we always have Marquis Grissom or John Mabry to step in and play everyday? That Dusty might actually get a clue on how to fill out a line up card? Maybe I can just be optimistic that all the other teams in the NL Central did nothing to improve and therefore by process of deduction, the Cubs have a shot at winning the division with 88 wins.

 

From where we were in 2003 to where we are now, I see a substantial decrease in my optimism that the management team that is currently in place can create a winning atmosphere for a significant amount of time. And that is something that should be expected from an organization that has the capabilities to spend what they spend each year on annual salaries.

[goonys evil twin]

Goony , my goal is not to diminish your angst, most days i have enough trouble knocking back my own . I could be wrong but the current set up with Hendry GM , Dusty manager , right or wrong has been together since 2003. MacPhail has been part of this equation also , I take it your referring to him in relation to 93. DUDE i may need you to pull me back off the ledge if the cubs stink this year and they are playing two guys with sub 300 obps. I might change my handle to Punch Dustys Ticket. The point is the year must shake out to see if any progress in the plan is showing . God Bless and i feel your pain brother Dave L

 

I refer to the regime as Andy, Jim and whatever other fill in the blank manager you want since Rigs. To me, Dusty is no better than Baylor, the blowhard ex big leaguer who always talks about "playing the game the right way" but never delivers the results.

 

Personally I gave up on these guys long ago. I never wanted Dusty here, I saw him as a fraud before he signed. Hendry I once had hope for, ignoring his faults and just hoping all those hunches would work, they obviously haven't. But my patience has ran thin after two straight terrible offseasons. But I can understand why somebody would want to "let this year play out", what I can't understand is why somebody would even suggest we need to let this year play out, as well as let the following year play out. If this team is no better than a 82-85 win team, I don't see what else people will need to prove to them that Andy, Hendry & Co. will not bring this team to the promised land.