Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[tgk]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

I would say that the 17 caught steals, along with the .326 OBP is why his run scoring wasn't where it should be.

 

I have a dumb question that I'm hoping someone can answer. Does getting picked off 1st base count towards Caught Stealing?

 

Yes

[Diffusion]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

Except Furcal wasn't hitting ahead of Castillo, Cabrera and Delgado, or an equivalent trio, Furcal played 8 games fewer while amassing 29 fewer plate appearances, and Furcal's effective OBP at .333 wasn't that hot.

 

A good leadoff hitter hitting in front of three fine hitters and playing every single day should score at least 120 runs.

[ThePenguin11]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

Cut the friggin' grass.

 

You have to talk to the Grass Cutters Union Local 123 and they are harder to deal with than the previous Tampa Bay GM.

 

Couldn't you say that if the grass was shorter his grounders would get to the fielder faster and help the fielder to get the ball to first before he could reach? I never understood the grass length argument. If Pierre rolls one halfway to a fielder and past the pitcher, he has the edge because of his speed - and in most cases the fielder would have to put the ball in his pocket to save from throwing past the first baseman off-balanced.

[Cubzfan64]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

That's really interesting, however let me toss this argument out for you to discuss.

 

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. They will go slowly. Fielders will get them. They will not go through holes to the OF. Pierre will beat out plenty of those ground balls for hits because the grass in longer.

 

I don't see any reason my theory is any better or worse than yours so it looks like a wash to me.

[JeffH]

Where does it say it's not TB?

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-051206cubs,1,1301681.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines

 

It says there are two offers on the table. One for Pierre, and one for several Cub players for one player in return - then says the Cubs have also had talks with Tampa for Lugo and Huff. George Offman was on the radio this morning and said there's another offer on the table from Hendry but no one is sure exactly who it is to yet - "but they've been in talks with the Dodgers, Rangers, Nationals, etc."

 

I guess I don't see the connection. Oh, well.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Where does it say it's not TB?

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-051206cubs,1,1301681.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines

 

It says there are two offers on the table. One for Pierre, and one for several Cub players for one player in return - then says the Cubs have also had talks with Tampa for Lugo and Huff. George Offman was on the radio this morning and said there's another offer on the table from Hendry but no one is sure exactly who it is to yet - "but they've been in talks with the Dodgers, Rangers, Nationals, etc."

 

To me, that reads as the other deal is for either Huff or Lugo.

 

Nope, gotta be Tejada.

[jyoung55]

Positives:

1. The Cubs acquire a CF and lead-off man that has had success in the role.

 

Career high OBP of .341 outside of Coors Field when you take into account all the caught stealings. That's a strange idea you have there of success in the leadoff role.

 

2. Pierre will be a significant upgrade over what we had in the position last season.

 

Neifi Perez outhit Cub centre fielders last year. So, regarding the fact that there's an upgrade involved, big deal, frankly.

 

3. We made the trade without giving up Jerome Williams or Rich Hill or Todd Walker.

 

The fact that we could have made a worse trade doesn't make a bad trade any better.

 

Seriously dude when you make up your own stats that jade everything in your direction how does anyone present a coherent argument against what you are saying? or i guess thats what you were hoping.

 

And HOW ON EARTH DOES IT MATTER THAT SOME OF PIERRE'S STATS WERE IN COORS?!?! I thought one of your arguments was he can get the ball out of the park... heck he has trouble getting it off the ground. Lets get this straight Coors effects power hitters numbers (i.e. Sammy's stats there) not slap hitters that keep it on the deck.

 

You and others were going to be mad with ANY move and also with ANY non-move.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

I was referring to:

When Pierre puts down a bunt

[Guest]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

Semi-related Pierre stat: In 2005 he got the ball past the infielders in 34% of his PA. In 2004 he managed to get the ball to the OF a whopping 36% of the time.

[fromthestretch]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

I would say that the 17 caught steals, along with the .326 OBP is why his run scoring wasn't where it should be.

 

I have a dumb question that I'm hoping someone can answer. Does getting picked off 1st base count towards Caught Stealing?

 

Yes

 

Actually, I don't believe that is correct. It is only a caught stealing if the runner makes a break for the next base.

[JeffH]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

Except Furcal wasn't hitting ahead of Castillo, Cabrera and Delgado, or an equivalent trio, Furcal played 8 games fewer while amassing 29 fewer plate appearances, and Furcal's effective OBP at .333 wasn't that hot.

 

A good leadoff hitter hitting in front of three fine hitters and playing every single day should score at least 120 runs.

 

I don't have the energy to research this right now, but I believe that you'll find that the list of league leaders in runs scored is usually filled with power hitters. If you don't drive yourself in a lot, it's tough to have huge runs scored totals.

 

I could be proven wrong.

[YearofDaCubs]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

Except Furcal wasn't hitting ahead of Castillo, Cabrera and Delgado, or an equivalent trio, Furcal played 8 games fewer while amassing 29 fewer plate appearances, and Furcal's effective OBP at .333 wasn't that hot.

 

A good leadoff hitter hitting in front of three fine hitters and playing every single day should score at least 120 runs.

If Pierre played in front of ARam and Lee last year 120 runs would have been attainable.

[TheDude]

I'm at work and don't have the time to read all 14 pages to this point - was it clarified as to whether it was 3 pitchers or 2 going to Florida?

 

Regardless, I'm happy. Filled CF with a very respectable lead-off hitter and none of the major minor league names were included. The Beananites may not love him, but the old school does.

 

Here's hoping mister stolen base comes to ST again this year to work on Pierre's read of the pitcher. See if he can't help get Pierre's SB% up to 80.

[Careless]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

I was referring to:

When Pierre puts down a bunt

While I've already said it will help his bunting, there's only so many times a season you can bunt before teams play in enough on you that bunting is asking to be thrown out. In addition, bunting a lot will lower your infield hits by getting the IF to play shallowly, which is a type of hit people are thinking he'll be getting more of.

[Careless]

I'm at work and don't have the time to read all 14 pages to this point - was it clarified as to whether it was 3 pitchers or 2 going to Florida?

 

Regardless, I'm happy. Filled CF with a very respectable lead-off hitter and none of the major minor league names were included. The Beananites may not love him, but the old school does.

 

Here's hoping mister stolen base comes to ST again this year to work on Pierre's read of the pitcher. See if he can't help get Pierre's SB% up to 80.

It's still a point of contention. Also uncertain is if we're getting a pitcher back

[BigbadB]

Lets get this straight Coors effects power hitters numbers (i.e. Sammy's stats there) not slap hitters that keep it on the deck.

 

You and others were going to be mad with ANY move and also with ANY non-move.

 

 

Not true. Aaron Miles, Clint Barmes, Neifi Perez or any of the other guys they've had in Colorado with little to no power have incredible surges in offensive production due to the size of Coors Field.

 

HR's actually aren't all that much higher than other parks, if I recall correctly.

[Guest]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

Except Furcal wasn't hitting ahead of Castillo, Cabrera and Delgado, or an equivalent trio, Furcal played 8 games fewer while amassing 29 fewer plate appearances, and Furcal's effective OBP at .333 wasn't that hot.

 

A good leadoff hitter hitting in front of three fine hitters and playing every single day should score at least 120 runs.

If Pierre played in front of ARam and Lee last year 120 runs would have been attainable.

If that's true for Pierre than it would also be true for Hairston, perhaps even for Neifi. (Not quite the OBP as Pierre, but he didn't run himself off the bases nearly as often, either.)

[Tracer Bullet]

Those of you who are really complaining that we gave up too much for Pierre....

 

Don't you think that if Nolasco, Pinto and Mitre were so highly regarded by other teams that we would have traded them for something more??? None of us here have a clue what offers have and have not been made in any trades involving us, so we can sit here and discuss and argue the merits or faults of this trade, but to say that we could have gotten so much more for the 3 guys we traded just doesn't cut it for me.

 

My guess is those 3 guys names have come up in many trade offers and other teams simply don't value our minor league prospects as highly as some of you do. Who's right and who's wrong - we'll find out in a few years, but sheesh let's just move forward from this move and see what other pieces to the puzzle Hendry tries to fill shall we?

 

That's not necessarily true. Hendry really wanted Pierre and made it well known that, after Furcal, Pierre was his biggest priority. Hendry showed his hand too early - so he wasn't going to be able to get Pierre cheaply. I don't know who else he offered these three guys to, but the fact that they were traded for Pierre doesn't mean that they weren't valued by other teams. In addition, the Marlins are rebuilding and wanted young, inexpensive players, so they probably wanted some of the Cubs many young arms. I'm not sure that's what teams like the Dodgers, Nationals, etc wanted.

 

Some people, myself included, think we overpaid. Maybe other teams don't value these prospects as much as people on NSBB do, but these guys have some value - and we think that value is more than Pierre's. Plus, even if other GMs don't value these 3 guys as highly as we do, that doesn't mean they would have made this deal if they were Hendry.

 

Finally, if people want to argue about the merits of the trade, who are you to tell them to stop? If you don't want to read the posts, don't.

[Mizzou]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Mizzou

[Careless]

Lets get this straight Coors effects power hitters numbers (i.e. Sammy's stats there) not slap hitters that keep it on the deck.

 

You and others were going to be mad with ANY move and also with ANY non-move.

 

 

Not true. Aaron Miles, Clint Barmes, Neifi Perez or any of the other guys they've had in Colorado with little to no power have incredible surges in offensive production due to the size of Coors Field.

 

HR's actually aren't all that much higher than other parks, if I recall correctly.

The thinner air doesn't just affect how far you can hit the ball. It also affects pitching. Pitches move because of friction with the air. Less dense air=less movement on the pitch. Curve balls and sliders move less. Knuckleballs? ha! Fastballs with nasty movement become meatballs.

[Tracer Bullet]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

Except Furcal wasn't hitting ahead of Castillo, Cabrera and Delgado, or an equivalent trio, Furcal played 8 games fewer while amassing 29 fewer plate appearances, and Furcal's effective OBP at .333 wasn't that hot.

 

A good leadoff hitter hitting in front of three fine hitters and playing every single day should score at least 120 runs.

If Pierre played in front of ARam and Lee last year 120 runs would have been attainable.

 

Ditto if Walker and his .350 OBP had hit in front of them the entire year.

[YearofDaCubs]

So now both Chicago teams have 2 of the fastest players in MLB. I like this move the only knock on Pierre as far as I'm concerned is his weak arm in CF.

[TheDude]

Lets get this straight Coors effects power hitters numbers (i.e. Sammy's stats there) not slap hitters that keep it on the deck.

 

You and others were going to be mad with ANY move and also with ANY non-move.

 

 

Not true. Aaron Miles, Clint Barmes, Neifi Perez or any of the other guys they've had in Colorado with little to no power have incredible surges in offensive production due to the size of Coors Field.

 

HR's actually aren't all that much higher than other parks, if I recall correctly.

The thinner air doesn't just affect how far you can hit the ball. It also affects pitching. Pitches move because of friction with the air. Less dense air=less movement on the pitch. Curve balls and sliders move less. Knuckleballs? ha! Fastballs with nasty movement become meatballs.

 

Right. Coors numbers has just as much to do with pitchers losing stuff than it has to do with "thin air" causing the ball to carry.

[Tracer Bullet]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

 

Really? .276/.326/.354 - that's not a "good hitter."

[Lefty]

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

Cut the friggin' grass.

 

I would guess that the long grass would give Pierre an opprtunity to beat out more hits. Unless the infield came in, and that also is an advantage for the hitter, he'd gain a fraction of a second. No?