Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[Balsa]

That would be an absolute nightmare. A decent corner outfielder should provide a .350-ish OBP while also providing good power, say in the 25-30 HR range. Pierre may provide you with the OBP (assuming the balls are bouncing his way and he's having one of his good years) but you'll be extremely lucky to get 3 HR out of him, let alone 30. Pierre isn't that great for a CF, and as a corner OF he'd be far, far worse than any of the Cubs' 2005 options for those slots.

 

Hey the ChiSox had Poddy in LF. Just sayin'.

[Diffusion]

Does no one understand the concepts of marginal value and opportunity cost?

 

I do too. I'm trying to look at this in a positive way, as well. I can see some positives in it, and some negatives. I'm choosing to believe the positives.

 

These positives being?

 

Here's some positives:

 

The Cubs won't be tempted to give Damon a 5 year contract.

 

One act of stupidity being less stupid than an act of greater stupidity doesn't make the first act of studipity not stupid.

 

As long as Pierre stays healthy, we won't see Perez leading off.

 

If Dusty's such a problem, get rid of Dusty. Don't go making loads of stupid moves just so Dusty can't make stupider ones.

 

Now Hendry can concentrate on finding a RF

 

Because he can only concentrate on one thing at a time?

 

This trade won't destroy the franchise but has a good chance of looking really horrible in 3 years time.

 

That's okay then.

[Lefty]

 

Here's a fun parlor game for you: go back and look at these Cubs Top X lists the last five years. See how many of those kids are playing in the major leagues right now and get back to me.

 

But this doesn't change the fact that Pierre is a zero. You give away enough players, you're going to regret one. And nothing is worth Pierre.

[Balsa]

So do we have any confimed sources on who the Cubs traded to Florida?

[USSoccer]

Diiffusion,

 

Ideally, most of us would love to just get rid of Baker and do things the sane way. But that's not going to happen. We're all stuck in the same boat.

 

Also, you mentioned his OBP after factoring in CS. Who is to say that he'll run as often as he did in Florida? It's not as if Baker is the most aggressive manager out there when it comes to running, hitting and running, etc? I'm sure Pierre will run more than anyone else did last year for us, but there's a good possibility that he doesn't run as much as he did in Florida.

[USSoccer]

 

Here's a fun parlor game for you: go back and look at these Cubs Top X lists the last five years. See how many of those kids are playing in the major leagues right now and get back to me.

 

But this doesn't change the fact that Pierre is a zero. You give away enough players, you're going to regret one. And nothing is worth Pierre.

 

I disagree. Pierre isn't some terrible, Neifi like player. He may not be our ideal CF, but he's by no means awful.

[CuseCubFan69]

So far the Cubs have this lineup....Dusty style:

 

Pierre CF

Perez SS

Lee 1B

Ramirez 3B

XXXXXX RF

Murton LF

Barrett C

Cedeno 2B

 

Or

 

Pierre CF

Walker 2B

Lee 1B

Ramirez 3B

XXXX RF

Murton LF

Barrett C

Perez SS

[Careless]

pierre could post the lowest slg to obp ratio of any cubs player in my lifetime this season. His swings will be killed by the grass and he'll bunt constantly.

[Kingmanarama]

I thought it was 2 years, and 2004 was the fluke year. 2005 was in-line with his career norms (career OPS+ of 87, 2005 was 84).

 

That career OPS+ of 87 includes Pierre's age 22, 23, and 24 seasons in Colorado, in which he posted a 55, 89, and 65. In the last three seasons, he's gone 98, 107, 84. Not great, obviously, but I think you've considerably overstated his suckiness.

 

He's not good. He could easily suck again. Those guys could have been traded, along with a Williams or other pieces, for a much much much better player.

 

If we added Jerome Williams to this package, we could have gotten a player who is several orders of magnitude better than Juan Pierre? Really? Who?

[Lefty]

And really, what's the difference between hitting a double and hitting a single and then stealing second base? Again, near enough makes no odds, there isn't one. Do you not agree?

 

 

Not really. A double doesn't only get you to second, it pushes everybody else along at least two bases. A stolen base is worth a little more than half a total base. Also, Pierre's speed is dealt with in his batting average. If not for his speed, he'd hit .211 with no extra base hits. His leg doubles and triples are basically his entire isolated power. So his speed is well accounted for in the traditional stats.

[USSoccer]

pierre could post the lowest slg to obp ratio of any cubs player in my lifetime this season. His swings will be killed by the grass and he'll bunt constantly.

 

That's going to be the key-if he can adjust to our infield.

[Diffusion]

Marginal cost? You assume comparable players were available for lesser cost or better players for equal cost. I don't know that to be the case.

 

In the case of Milton Bradley, we know that a better player was available and at a much lower cost.

 

What about marginal benefit? How much will Pierre help us in the next couple seasons vesus Pinto/Nolasco/Mitre?

 

Well in that case, why didn't we throw Pawelek, Harvey, Dopirak, every other single minor leaguer we have that figures to be a little way away from the majors, into this trade for Pierre?

 

What about replacement cost? Who is more difficult and costly to replace, a proven major leage lead-off guy or three middling prospects that, in the unlikely event that they max out would be #3/4 starters at best, but who likely would have trouble cracking the rotation anyway?

 

Seeing as we already have an equivalent leadoff option than Juan Pierre on our roster in Todd Walker, I have to go with the prospects.

 

Opportunity cost? What was the opportunity cost of not trading a whole host of prospects in the past 3-4 years when they actually had value? What was the opportunity cost of not trading Juan Cruz earlier?

 

Or later for that matter. Because one year after we traded Cruz, he was packaged with a top lefty pitching prospect and a useless backup outfielder to net Tim Hudson. Hmm.

 

Just because it's wise to sell high on a player doesn't mean you need to make a bad trade.

 

By acquiring Juan Pierre the Cubs do not necessarily miss out on acquiring other NSBB favorites like Bradley or Wilkerson. These guys can still play RF.

 

Except that's a thoroughly stupid way of going about things. Both can play CF, where their offence is far more valuable. Then you can put a proper big bat in RF. All in all your team is many times better off for it.

[Wheelimus]

I'm just glad we got SOMEBODY who is meant to pick up a bat :lol:

 

Anyway, all in all I'm happy. We've got a legit leadoff hitter. He had a down year last year, but I think the infield grass at Wrigley is going to do wonders for Pierre. I'll call it now, I expect a .310/.360 line or better. And if I'm wrong, hey, who ever said I knew jack **** ? hehe

[Jazz]

I think that it is somewhat unfair to critczise Pierre for his caught stealings subtracted from his OBP stat, as when you think about it, his primary goal will be to get to first base, as having Walker, Lee, Ramirez, and hopefully another big bat behind them coming up in the order, runs will follow. We suffered a great deal from seeing the Patterson/Perez/Macias/Lawton leading off debacle, now with a legitmate mainstay at the top of the order who can get on base at least at a .350 clip, we will see more RBI chances for the middle of the order thus leading to more runs. I think we wont see Pierre attempt to steal a base 80 times a season, with his deplorable stolen base ratio, it would be taking a step backward in terms of getting people on base, but we do have a big 1st to 3rd threat on hits from the players behind him.

[BigbadB]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

[Lefty]

Who's to say we don't sign Pierre again and then move him over to RF or LF next year when Pie comes up?

 

Because that would be really stupid. You don't put a guy with a throwing arm that rivals Jonny Damon's in RF. Pierre can't slug, can't throw. His value comes from playing CF.

 

Except for the throwing part, isn't that the Scott Podsednick story that the Cubs are trying so hard to emulate?

Edited December 7, 2005 by Lefty

[Sabermetrician]

Cubs | More On Pierre Trade

Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:20:00 -0800

 

Clarifying and updating a previous item, cubs.MLB.com's Carrie Muskat is reporting the Chicago Cubs have acquired OF Juan Pierre and an unnamed pitching prospect from the Florida Marlins in exchange for Double-A pitching prospects Ricky Nolasco and Renyel Pinto. Cubs P Sergio Mitre is not considered part of this trade.

 

KFFL.com

 

That would change things quite a bit...No Mitre, plus we get someone else?

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

 

What's his batting average when he does bunt?

[USSoccer]

Who's to say we don't sign Pierre again and then move him over to RF or LF next year when Pie comes up?

 

Because that would be really stupid. You don't put a guy with a throwing arm that rivals Jonny Damon's in RF. Pierre can't slug, can't throw. His value comes from playing CF.

 

Except for the throwing part, isn't that the Scott Podsednick story that the Cubs are trying so hard to emulate.

 

I don't care much for that story, but if it ends with a WS win next year, I could care less :D

[CuseCubFan69]

Cubs | More On Pierre Trade

Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:20:00 -0800

 

Clarifying and updating a previous item, cubs.MLB.com's Carrie Muskat is reporting the Chicago Cubs have acquired OF Juan Pierre and an unnamed pitching prospect from the Florida Marlins in exchange for Double-A pitching prospects Ricky Nolasco and Renyel Pinto. Cubs P Sergio Mitre is not considered part of this trade.

 

KFFL.com

 

That would change things quite a bit...No Mitre, plus we get someone else?

 

I was hoping that Mitre would be in the trade and not Pinto or Nolassco! :D

[Wheelimus]

Now THAT might make it a great trade, Mitre is kept (I still think he could be a part of a trade to the Reds for Dunn or, if you have to settle, Kearns, he'd do great in that park) and you get someone else back? Sign me up.

[Warpticon]

Yeah, that makes it better. 3 guys for just Pierre was not looking good. Two minor leaguers for Pierre and another prospect has potential, depending on who the prospect is. I'd still rather not have Pierre, butat least he's not total garbage.

[Balsa]

Cubs | More On Pierre Trade

Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:20:00 -0800

 

Clarifying and updating a previous item, cubs.MLB.com's Carrie Muskat is reporting the Chicago Cubs have acquired OF Juan Pierre and an unnamed pitching prospect from the Florida Marlins in exchange for Double-A pitching prospects Ricky Nolasco and Renyel Pinto. Cubs P Sergio Mitre is not considered part of this trade.

 

KFFL.com

 

That would change things quite a bit...No Mitre, plus we get someone else?

 

YES! Now that is a fleecing! Way to go HENDRY! 8) :D 8)

[Lefty]

 

We're expecting a baby, so I spend a lot of my time taking care of her. I was up to get her ready for work, and decided to check on the Pierre thing really quick.

 

Needless to say, I didn't go back to sleep. :D

 

You're expecting a baby and you're still not sleeping? It's not going to get any better. Good luck!

[gflore34]

I believe we overpaid for Pierre however, when one considers the prospect of Neifi hitting in front of Lee and Ramirez as opposed to Pierre. Pierre starts to look a whole lot better, my gosh; it’s pathetic that we have to accept mediocrity because of an incompetent Manager.