Marlins want Guzman for Pierre???

[The Voice of Reason]

We badly need a leadoff hitter and saying Guzman is too high a price to pay for Pierre means another year with KPat. If Hendry gets Pierre, it makes the Patterson deal easier to consumate. I'm not sold on Pie. I think he's Patterson II and another year in the minors will prove that to the Cubs brass. I'd rather go into next offseason, after winning the World Series, trying to re-sign Pierre.

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

Pierre is simply not a good ballplayer. He is completely one-dimensional. He's not a good defender. He hits for no power. He doesn't even have a good stolen base ratio. Keep him far away from the Cubs.

 

Pie is already a better player than Pierre. He is simply an outstanding defender. You will see Pie win a gold glove in the future. Nor is he the second coming of Patterson at the plate. Pie continues to improve at every level in all facets of his game. He will be an impact player in the Bigs, and it would competely foolish of the Cubs to trade him away.

 

I like the potential of Pie as much as the next guy and know a lot of posters here hate Pierre but saying a guy that's in AA is already better than an established major league player of Pierre's caliber is ridiculous.

 

I'd take Pierre over Bradley based simply on attitude and work ethic alone. Throw out 2005 (like everyone does with Wilkerson) and use Pierre's career average stats - they're respectable.

 

OK, Pierre haters >>> ATTACK.

[goonys evil twin]

I like the potential of Pie as much as the next guy and know a lot of posters here hate Pierre but saying a guy that's in AA is already better than an established major league player of Pierre's caliber is ridiculous.

 

I'd take Pierre over Bradley based simply on attitude and work ethic alone. Throw out 2005 (like everyone does with Wilkerson) and use Pierre's career average stats - they're respectable.

 

OK, Pierre haters >>> ATTACK.

 

I agree that Pie is not better than Pierre right now.

 

 

I completely disagree with the rest.

[ThePenguin11]

We badly need a leadoff hitter and saying Guzman is too high a price to pay for Pierre means another year with KPat. If Hendry gets Pierre, it makes the Patterson deal easier to consumate. I'm not sold on Pie. I think he's Patterson II and another year in the minors will prove that to the Cubs brass. I'd rather go into next offseason, after winning the World Series, trying to re-sign Pierre.

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

Pierre is simply not a good ballplayer. He is completely one-dimensional. He's not a good defender. He hits for no power. He doesn't even have a good stolen base ratio. Keep him far away from the Cubs.

 

Pie is already a better player than Pierre. He is simply an outstanding defender. You will see Pie win a gold glove in the future. Nor is he the second coming of Patterson at the plate. Pie continues to improve at every level in all facets of his game. He will be an impact player in the Bigs, and it would competely foolish of the Cubs to trade him away.

 

He's actually more than one-dimensional. He's not a bad fielder except for the fact that he's got a weak arm. He's very good at getting to balls and he plays in an enormous park. He also has been a pretty good hitter for average. The fact that he doesn't hit for power is irrelevant because one of a few positions in baseball where you can afford to have no power.

Edited December 6, 2005 by ThePenguin11

[RyCubsFan]

We badly need a leadoff hitter and saying Guzman is too high a price to pay for Pierre means another year with KPat. If Hendry gets Pierre, it makes the Patterson deal easier to consumate. I'm not sold on Pie. I think he's Patterson II and another year in the minors will prove that to the Cubs brass. I'd rather go into next offseason, after winning the World Series, trying to re-sign Pierre.

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

Pierre is simply not a good ballplayer. He is completely one-dimensional. He's not a good defender. He hits for no power. He doesn't even have a good stolen base ratio. Keep him far away from the Cubs.

 

Pie is already a better player than Pierre. He is simply an outstanding defender. You will see Pie win a gold glove in the future. Nor is he the second coming of Patterson at the plate. Pie continues to improve at every level in all facets of his game. He will be an impact player in the Bigs, and it would competely foolish of the Cubs to trade him away.

 

I like the potential of Pie as much as the next guy and know a lot of posters here hate Pierre but saying a guy that's in AA is already better than an established major league player of Pierre's caliber is ridiculous.

 

I'd take Pierre over Bradley based simply on attitude and work ethic alone. Throw out 2005 (like everyone does with Wilkerson) and use Pierre's career average stats - they're respectable.

 

OK, Pierre haters >>> ATTACK.

 

 

"Of Pierre's caliber": you make it sound like Pierre is a good player. He's completly one-dimensional. He's takes bad routes to the ball in the outfield. He has no arm strength for throws. He hits for no power. He doesn't even steal bases all that well.

 

Pie is most certainly a better defender than Pierre right now.

Pie would hit for more power than Pierre right now.

While Pierre's OBP would be higher, I would wager that by the second half of the season, Pie would hit for a similar average as Pierre. I have that much faith in Pie's development as a player. I have that little regard for the worth of Pierre as a ballplayer.

[stitchface]

Pierre isn't worth Guzman. There are plenty of other options. I would trade Guzman for Wilkerson or Bradley - shoulder injuries are a big problem (ask the Mariners). There is no reason to make a bad trade here.

[ThePenguin11]

We badly need a leadoff hitter and saying Guzman is too high a price to pay for Pierre means another year with KPat. If Hendry gets Pierre, it makes the Patterson deal easier to consumate. I'm not sold on Pie. I think he's Patterson II and another year in the minors will prove that to the Cubs brass. I'd rather go into next offseason, after winning the World Series, trying to re-sign Pierre.

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

Pierre is simply not a good ballplayer. He is completely one-dimensional. He's not a good defender. He hits for no power. He doesn't even have a good stolen base ratio. Keep him far away from the Cubs.

 

Pie is already a better player than Pierre. He is simply an outstanding defender. You will see Pie win a gold glove in the future. Nor is he the second coming of Patterson at the plate. Pie continues to improve at every level in all facets of his game. He will be an impact player in the Bigs, and it would competely foolish of the Cubs to trade him away.

 

I like the potential of Pie as much as the next guy and know a lot of posters here hate Pierre but saying a guy that's in AA is already better than an established major league player of Pierre's caliber is ridiculous.

 

I'd take Pierre over Bradley based simply on attitude and work ethic alone. Throw out 2005 (like everyone does with Wilkerson) and use Pierre's career average stats - they're respectable.

 

OK, Pierre haters >>> ATTACK.

 

 

"Of Pierre's caliber": you make it sound like Pierre is a good player. He's completly one-dimensional. He's takes bad routes to the ball in the outfield. He has no arm strength for throws. He hits for no power. He doesn't even steal bases all that well.

 

Pie is most certainly a better defender than Pierre right now.

Pie would hit for more power than Pierre right now.

While Pierre's OBP would be higher, I would wager that by the second half of the season, Pie would hit for a similar average as Pierre. I have that much faith in Pie's development as a player. I have that little regard for the worth of Pierre as a ballplayer.

 

Then you must know Pie can't hit flies in the winter league. I'm not advocating trading him, but you need to know all the facts. Pierre is a good stopgap for this year - and probably next. There is no guarantee that the lately oft-injured Pie will even be ready for the majors next year. Pie will need time to master AAA and become ready for the majors. Until then, I wouldn't mind seeing him traded for guys like Abreu, Dunn, Cabrera or the like.

[RyCubsFan]

He's actually more than one-dimensional. He's not a bad fielder except for the fact that he's got a weak arm. He's very good at getting to balls and he plays in an enormous park. He also has been a pretty good hitter for average. The fact that he doesn't hit for power is irrelevant because one of a few positions in baseball where you can afford to have no power.

 

He is indeed one-dimensional: his ability to hit for average. What else is he good at?

 

He's not very good at getting to balls. Sure, he's fast. But he's slow to react when the ball comes off of the bat. And when he does react, he doesn't take a good route to the ball.

 

We agree he has a weak arm.

 

He's not a good baserunner. He gets caught steeling bases too frequently.

 

He doesn't hit for power at all. He had only 2HR's and just 19 doubles last year. He's just a slap hitter.

 

He doesn't walk much.

 

taking pour routes + weak arm + no power + many caught steals + few walks + a good batting average = one dimensional

[RyCubsFan]

Then you must know Pie can't hit flies in the winter league. I'm not advocating trading him, but you need to know all the facts. Pierre is a good stopgap for this year - and probably next. There is no guarantee that the lately oft-injured Pie will even be ready for the majors next year. Pie will need time to master AAA and become ready for the majors. Until then, I wouldn't mind seeing him traded for guys like Abreu, Dunn, Cabrera or the like.

 

I'm sure I've followed Pie in Winter Ball as much as you have. Please do not suggest that I'm ignorant b/c we have a different opinion. I'd venture to say that Pie is just shaking off rust.

 

It's a bit of a stretch to call Pie "oft-injurred." He had one injury, which wasn't even all that serious. There were no broken bones. The Cubs have been cautious not to make that injury any worse, hence they shut him down for the season.

 

I agree that Pie should start this year at Iowa, and probably play there all year. I too would like to see a stop-gap, but I would MUCH rather the stop gap be Bradley and the one-dimensional Pierre.

 

Here's a post I made about a month ago on Pie. It still stands.

 

 

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Don’t take my word for that Pie is going to be a star. Take Bobby Dickerson’s word for it. Dickerson was Pie’s manager this year in Double A:

 

On Pie’s Attitude:

Quote:

Everybody who plays the game wants to win, but he thrives on it," Dickerson said. "A lot of players go 0-for-4, their team wins and there's not really any jubilation. He's the type of guy that he goes 0-for-4, the team wins and he's happy. I remember one time this year we had won six in a row. He's walking off the field going, 'My team! My team! My team is great!' He just enjoys being part of something special, and it [becomes contagious] around him."

 

 

On Pie’s Defense:

Quote:

"We were playing Tennessee, which is the Diamondbacks organization," Dickerson said. "They had some rovers there and some coaches I know. He took away four potential doubles that night, going way over to the gaps and back to the wall. It was an amazing game. The next day those guys were asking me how he could get to those balls. Well, there was a fifth one in the game he had a shot to get, went way over to right field and almost got, and when he came back to the dugout he was really, genuinely mad that he didn't get it. Most guys would think they gave it a good try, what the heck? But he was mad. He really takes pride in himself and in his defense."

 

 

On Pie’s Power Potential:

Quote:

Dickerson said Pie has enough power to be a 30-homer hitter but swings for homers only when the situation dictates. Dickerson cited a game-winning, 12th-inning home run when Pie called his shot in the dugout. The West Tenn manager also gushed about Pie's fielding in center.

 

 

On his Ability to Win:

Quote:

He's an exciting player, a really exciting player," said West Tenn manager Bobby Dickerson, who served as a coach in the World team's 4-0 victory over prospects from the United States. "He loves to win. That's the biggest thing I've seen. He really enjoys winning ballgames, and he always wins. Every team he's been on has made the playoffs and three won championships."

 

 

And, of course, the DiamondJaxx went to the championship this year. I believe that they would have won it had Pie been able to play.

 

I repeat that Pie is going to be a star. Plus, he's a fun-loving, exciting young man. He's exactly the kind of player that wee all love to root for. He plays with heart, effort, and joy.

 

So enough with the Pie for Pierre suggestions. It would be nothing short than a collossal mistake to make such a move. And while I am all for targetting Dunn or Abreu, I would do everything I could to get one of them without trading Felix.

[The Voice of Reason]

Then you must know Pie can't hit flies in the winter league. I'm not advocating trading him, but you need to know all the facts. Pierre is a good stopgap for this year - and probably next. There is no guarantee that the lately oft-injured Pie will even be ready for the majors next year. Pie will need time to master AAA and become ready for the majors. Until then, I wouldn't mind seeing him traded for guys like Abreu, Dunn, Cabrera or the like.

 

I'm sure I've followed Pie in Winter Ball as much as you have. Please do not suggest that I'm ignorant b/c we have a different opinion. I'd venture to say that Pie is just shaking off rust.

 

It's a bit of a stretch to call Pie "oft-injurred." He had one injury, which wasn't even all that serious. There were no broken bones. The Cubs have been cautious not to make that injury any worse, hence they shut him down for the season.

 

I agree that Pie should start this year at Iowa, and probably play there all year. I too would like to see a stop-gap, but I would MUCH rather the stop gap be Bradley and the one-dimensional Pierre.

 

Here's a post I made about a month ago on Pie. It still stands.

 

 

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:21 pm Post subject:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Don’t take my word for that Pie is going to be a star. Take Bobby Dickerson’s word for it. Dickerson was Pie’s manager this year in Double A:

 

On Pie’s Attitude:

Quote:

Everybody who plays the game wants to win, but he thrives on it," Dickerson said. "A lot of players go 0-for-4, their team wins and there's not really any jubilation. He's the type of guy that he goes 0-for-4, the team wins and he's happy. I remember one time this year we had won six in a row. He's walking off the field going, 'My team! My team! My team is great!' He just enjoys being part of something special, and it [becomes contagious] around him."

 

 

On Pie’s Defense:

Quote:

"We were playing Tennessee, which is the Diamondbacks organization," Dickerson said. "They had some rovers there and some coaches I know. He took away four potential doubles that night, going way over to the gaps and back to the wall. It was an amazing game. The next day those guys were asking me how he could get to those balls. Well, there was a fifth one in the game he had a shot to get, went way over to right field and almost got, and when he came back to the dugout he was really, genuinely mad that he didn't get it. Most guys would think they gave it a good try, what the heck? But he was mad. He really takes pride in himself and in his defense."

 

 

On Pie’s Power Potential:

Quote:

Dickerson said Pie has enough power to be a 30-homer hitter but swings for homers only when the situation dictates. Dickerson cited a game-winning, 12th-inning home run when Pie called his shot in the dugout. The West Tenn manager also gushed about Pie's fielding in center.

 

 

On his Ability to Win:

Quote:

He's an exciting player, a really exciting player," said West Tenn manager Bobby Dickerson, who served as a coach in the World team's 4-0 victory over prospects from the United States. "He loves to win. That's the biggest thing I've seen. He really enjoys winning ballgames, and he always wins. Every team he's been on has made the playoffs and three won championships."

 

 

And, of course, the DiamondJaxx went to the championship this year. I believe that they would have won it had Pie been able to play.

 

I repeat that Pie is going to be a star. Plus, he's a fun-loving, exciting young man. He's exactly the kind of player that wee all love to root for. He plays with heart, effort, and joy.

 

So enough with the Pie for Pierre suggestions. It would be nothing short than a collossal mistake to make such a move. And while I am all for targetting Dunn or Abreu, I would do everything I could to get one of them without trading Felix.

 

No one suggested trading Pie for Pierre and no one said Pie didn't have a lot of potential. But you clearly suggested Pie (from AA) is currently better the Pierre. Something that is not true now and may never be. To suggest otherwise, is pure speculation.

[Brian]

Why exactly is it a knock on Pierre that he has no power?? He's suppose to get on base, not be a slugger.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Why exactly is it a knock on Pierre that he has no power?? He's suppose to get on base, not be a slugger.

 

He's supposed to get on base, then get past first on his own. That's the job of every hitter, whether they hit first or eighth. Pierre does the former pretty well(not last season), and has never done the latter well. It hurts his value because he can't provide as much at the offensive end. Throw in his poor defense and less than stellar baserunning capabilities, and he's just not worth it to me.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Why exactly is it a knock on Pierre that he has no power?? He's suppose to get on base, not be a slugger.

 

He's supposed to get on base, then get past first on his own. That's the job of every hitter, whether they hit first or eighth. Pierre does the former pretty well(not last season), and has never done the latter well. It hurts his value because he can't provide as much at the offensive end. Throw in his poor defense and less than stellar baserunning capabilities, and he's just not worth it to me.

 

how does a guy with his speed have so few doubles?

[Jehrico]

Why exactly is it a knock on Pierre that he has no power?? He's suppose to get on base, not be a slugger.

 

He's supposed to get on base, then get past first on his own. That's the job of every hitter, whether they hit first or eighth. Pierre does the former pretty well(not last season), and has never done the latter well. It hurts his value because he can't provide as much at the offensive end. Throw in his poor defense and less than stellar baserunning capabilities, and he's just not worth it to me.

 

how does a guy with his speed have so few doubles?

Too many triples? :jocolor:

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Why exactly is it a knock on Pierre that he has no power?? He's suppose to get on base, not be a slugger.

 

He's supposed to get on base, then get past first on his own. That's the job of every hitter, whether they hit first or eighth. Pierre does the former pretty well(not last season), and has never done the latter well. It hurts his value because he can't provide as much at the offensive end. Throw in his poor defense and less than stellar baserunning capabilities, and he's just not worth it to me.

 

how does a guy with his speed have so few doubles?

Too many triples? :jocolor:

 

That's what i mean. It's like if he gets it in the gap he's on 3rd. Does he just get a lot of crap singles or what? That's what it seemed like whenever i saw him play. hey, whatever works, but it doesn't seem to be a super consistent way to get on base.

[treebird]

ability to win is the absolute worst argument for why we should love pie that i have ever heard.

[USSoccer]

ability to win is the absolute worst argument for why we should love pie that i have ever heard.

 

agreed 100%. You can't want tangibles out of Pierre and other players like him, but then cite intangibles as reasons why Pie is untouchable.