Rcal10
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Bears hire Harbough? That would just be a positive reaction in Chicago, not the negative that is happening in Milw. But I think this is as big a deal here as that would be in football.
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Just seems to me guys get better when they come to the Breewers. McGill bounced around a bit before coming to the Brewers. Payamps took a few years to develop but he got better. Wilson had his best year with the Brewers. Milner as well. So whatever the reason the Brewers always seem to get the most from their pitchers. Maybe it isn’t coaching or pitch framing, but it is something. Not like they spend big dollars on pen arms. But somehow they get it done. Should Counsell get some credit?
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But maybe his circle of trust was larger because he gave guys chances. Of the relievers who all has era’s under 3.38 how many were home grown talent? The brewers brought guys up and he used them. If Counsell had Little, as an example, he would have used him. And how much of the pitchers success could be attributed to Counsell and his staff for having the best system in place for pitch framing. Does he and his coaching staff get any credit for that. I would say they should. Framing make those pitchers better. If he does the same here there is a chance the Cubs then have 5 or 6 guys in the pen with low 3 era’s, just like the Brewers had.
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I don’t think Counsell is worth 5 wins per season. That really wasn’t what I was saying. All I said was in order for the Cubs to gain 9 games in the standings if Counsell and Ross switched teams, Counsell would have to be 5 games better than Ross. Cubs would have 5 more wins and the brewers 5 less wins.
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I agree with a lot of what you said. However Counsell doesn’t have to be 10 wins better than Ross. If Ross is a baseline average manager and Counsell adds 5 wins to a baseline manager the same would go for rhe Brewers. If you believe Counsell adds 5 wins over an average manager that means if the Brewers had Ross managing them they would have won 5 less. 5 less wins for them and 5 more wins from the Cubs means the Cubs win the division. I am not suggesting it is that simple. I am just saying he wouldn’t have needed to add 10 wins to the Cubs. I am excited to have him because to me this means the Cubs are committed to winning in 24’. I don’t see the ins doing this unless they plan on going for it in 24’, and beyond.
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Yep, I don’t see that sort of deal for Alonso either. One thing to suggest you want that. Then there is the reality where he just isn’t Freeman. If the Cubs got him and then gave him a 5 year extension I would think he is doing very well at $115 for those 5 years. And, TBH, that might be high. But at least the years are t too bad.
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Works for me. Trade them Brown or Assad. I am fine with that. Keep Mervis, especially if Alonso is around for only 1 year.
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If they are going to have a first baseman for one year I would rather have Hoskins and still have Mervis. If they do trade Mercis for Alonso I would want Alonso for another 4 or at most, 5 years. Then I totally understand not needing Mervis. But if Alonso is only 1 year, Mervis might be the 1st baseman in 25’ and a 1B/DH in 24.
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So trade Mervis for one year of Alonso? I think I would rather keep Mervis and sign Hoskins to one year. I understand not wanting Alonso long term. But if he agreed to a 5 year deal I might be ok with that. Even if 1 or 2 are overpaid years.
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You won’t get an argument from me on Hoskins. I mentioned him about a week ago as an option and was basically told if the Cubs went with him and Mervis at 1st and DH it would be the start of a terrible off season. I do like Hoskins. But others seemed to hate the idea.
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Correct. Hoskins as their main move would be awful. Hoskins as a bounce back guy for a year along with other bigger moves, whether it be a Soto trade, a trade for a young controlled pitcher, a big free agent signing or any combination of the above, would be fine.
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But he does have say in what the payroll will be. So in years 8 thru 10 when that big FA signing from previous years sucks, as is typical in those long term deals, he still doesn’t budge on being under the LT. That is a factor in signing a guy for 10+ years. I agree Jed has to take some responsibility for the FO not giving long deals. But I also feel TR has to take some responsibility as well. I also think Jed is in charge because he shares the same beliefs as ownership. And, again, it doesn’t matter who is the reason for this way of running the team. All that matters is up until now, for whatever reason, they have not shown they are willing to give out 10 year deals.
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While I understand your position let me ask you this. If the Cubs signed Ohtani for 12 years and for 8 of then he was an elite MVP candidate and then he dropped off some his last 3 or 4 years do you consider that a bad signing? How about if they won a World Series and made the playoffs in 6 of those 8 years. Maybe went to anothe WS and went to a couple of NLCS. If him being grossly overpaid for 3 years a reason to call it a bad contract? Is he worth it if that happens even knowing they have to carry a bad contract for 3 years?
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Well…… he added a year to Nico. Not much of an extension. He did extend Happ however. And, I am holding out hope they do decide to go 10+ years if that is what it takes for Ohtani or if that is what it will take to extend Soto after trading for him.
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Doesn’t this research go against your statement? I mean, there are already not a lot of guys signing 8 to 10+ year deals. Did you not suggest in the future there will be less? I am just saying I don’t agree there will be less. I don’t see anything that would suggest that. There has never been many and in the future there won’t be many. BTW, I am not arguing if the Cubs stance is right or wrong. But I will say if they don’t go long years they aren’t going to sign the elite FA.
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So if TR is fine with this and Hoyer is not doing it wouldn’t he get fired? Not like they are winning under Jed. I think to absolve TR of this entirely is foolish. I agree it appears Jed isn’t comfortable with that sort of thing too. But I cannot see how you don’t think Ricketts thinks similar. Honestly it doesn’t matter. The result is still the same. They Cubs organization has not shown they will give 10+ year deals up until now.
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I don’t think we will see many because we never reall saw many. Let’s take Acuna as an example. This is a guy who signed a long extension. However he will be a free agent at 30. Are you saying he won’t get 10 year., or at least 8? As for the age being higher right now to start in the majors, we are coming off basically 2 lost years of minor league play due to Covid. I think we will start seeing fiys coming up earlier again soon. And not all will sign past their mandatory time with a team. Just like it is I just don’t feel any conclusion can be drawn to make the statement you made. I am not saying you are wrong and there will be more signings of 8 to 10 year deals. I am saying there is no basis to your comment.
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How is the age of a free agent any different than it has been the last 20 years? If anything, guys are starting their careers younger now because of the incentive to bring a top guy up early. There is just no proof to what you are saying. Guys will be free agents at 27, 28 and even 30. And they will still want the 8 year deal for sure. And the elite will still want the 10 year deal. No different than now.
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Cuzi, I agree with everything you said except I also place this line of thinking on the ownership too. I think they are just as responsible as Hoyer, and maybe more so, when it comes to not giving out 10 year deals. But regardless of whose is responsible, the Cubs have not shown the desire to offer those contracts. And I feel there is enough proof to back that line of thinking up.
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I disagree. How many times do they have to not go to a 10+ year deal before there is enough data. You are discounting the SS in this class by suggesting they got who they wanted. But maybe they wanted him because he wasn’t a 10+ year guy. I just don’t think it is an exaggeration to say they have avoided this sort of signing. Again, pinning it all on Jed, isn’t right IMO, but ignoring the past examples isn’t right either. That said, maybe they have a change in thinking. Maybe Soto or Ohtani are different. Maybe where they are as a team makes the scenario different. But up until now I feel they have shown us who they are. They are a FO/Ownership who do not offer the 10 year deals. I would be very happy if they proved me and others wrong this off season.
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That is why I don’t think it is all on Jed. I think it is more on the ownership. If you put it on them you can add guys like Harper and Machado to the list of long term contracts the Cubs didn’t get involved with. I think Jed is there because he agrees with ownership and is ok with not going 10+ years. But if you take away who is to blame it still comes down to the Cubs not showing a desire to go 10+ on guys, which is needed if they want to extend Soto, if they trade for him, or sign Ohtani. And I think we have enough examples to make the statement the Cubs are not comfortable doing that long of deals. TBH, I get the thought process. I am not comfortable with those sort of deals either. But if you want the elite talent you have to do it.
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That, I did not see. But for that I would agree with the FO. No reason to do a long term deal for a pen arm. I don’t blame Jed or ownership for not wanting to spend big money and/or long years for a pen arm.
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I think a lot of posts come with some hyperbole. In this case WCWW is at least basing his statement on precedence. Up until now the Cubs have not make that mega year deal. I am sure you and everyone else knows he isn’t talking about 6 to 8 year deals. He is talking about the 10+ deals needed to get the elite free agent. While I wouldn’t put this squarely in Hoyer, I still do agree with him they the Cubs haven’t shown that sort of deal is what they will do.
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To be fair, Jed has never offered the 10+ year deals the elite free agents require. Now you agree or disagree with that way of running the team but you can’t disagree with someone who says they haven’t made those offers. If the Cubs are going to get Ohtani or trade for and extend Soto, they are going to have to go 10+ on the contract. And WCWW isn’t wrong to point out that Jed hasn’t done that as of yet.
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He wouldn’t be my choice either. You can add Wesnecki to that list and take Wicks out. Maybe you give them one of them and then a lowere level guy. Also, if you are correct and the Cubs have no thoughts of Morel at 3rd what would a Morel for Burger trade look like? Both have a lot of control left. Burger is not exactly a good fielder, but he does play 3rd. He is older than Morel but they both come with a lot of control time. What would need to be added from either team to make this work? Miami seems to be a team that acquires guys and then fits them into positions. Plus they are losing Soler. Could make some sense for the Cubs. Just not sure about Miami. Edit: after looking over Miami’s roster they really don’t have a place for Morel. So I don’t see that happening.