indifferent

Is this thread really about let's see which player with the lowest batting avg. and highest Ks who is the most valuable?

Bump. Critical question re: how far Cards go into the playoffs, as well as subject to different interpretations. We've had mixed results lately (OK, mostly bad) from our top rotation candidates. I still say you have to go Carp, Mulder, SUPPAN, and maybe Marquis 4th. Morris should be nowhere near the playoff rotation IMO.

When's the first game of the Stros/Braves series, Tues. or Wed.? I just wonder because Pettitte pitched Fri., Clemens pitched Sat., and Oswalt pitched today? Seems likely Pettitte will go for Game 1 if it's Tues.?

He's had 5 starts against Houston thie year I believe, going 4-0 with an ERA under 1. Somehow, they'll remember him when he di well against them. You never forget when a pitcher does well or poorly against you. any film session will remind how well he did against them. Baseball isn't about memory anymore, you have hours of film from different angles on each pitcher. I also agree that Carp was holding nothing back. He wanted win #22 and he wanted the CY. It's all on Carp, no excuses, and against the omnipotent Houston offense no less.

Now that I'll agree with. We could have matched or bettered either offer and still not taken a big hit with our young players. Especially for Mulder. We should have at least made a few offers for Mulder in order to drive the price up for the Cardinals. Sometimes you don't have to trade for the player... just make the other guys pay too much. Disagree here, what major league ready pitcher and stud hitting prospect could the Cubs have countered with (especially that weren't lined up for a big payday)? Cards paid too much with this trade as it was.

I don't think Carp looks mortal, I think he looks terrible. 5.40 ERA in September, 800+ OPS against. He didn't make it to last postseason did he? A lot of people couldn't explain his greatness mid season, perhaps things are just balancing out, like with the White Sox. I don't have a negative thing to say about them "laying down" at the end. I could care less. They locked up the division early and can treat September however they want. However, there has to be major concern out there. Mulder's up and down season continues, Morris is on his 4th month of 4+ ERA. Suppan has been the best post All Star pitcher. Sometimes this late season stuff is overblown, as for how it applies to the postseason. Sometime it's underplayed though. Anybody who is handing the crown to STL isn't watching their pitching, which is the part of the game I'd least like to see struggle heading into the playoffs. But all in all, I'd switch places in a heartbeat, even Eddy Curry's. The worst part of it is it's too late to do anything about it, rest or otherwise. IMO Carp is a low key guy and he's let this CY stuff get into his head. He showed the most emotion on the mound than I've ever seen him display after Berkman's two run shot. I'd have to bet on Pujols finding his stroke given his consistent history, at least more so than others. Other than that, it is anyone's guess as to which Cards team will show up, pitching wise or offensively.

I think we have more to worry about than laying down for Houston with our two best players seemingly hitting a wall. Pujols is in a slump and Carp looks to be merely mortal. Cards went 2-5 the last week of the season last year too. It's certainly not LaRussa's fault, the last two games he's sported two of our best lineups. I think they were trying like heck to get Carp to 22 wins.

I don't trust Morris or Marquis. They should platoon their start at the first sign of weakness. I won't specify an earned run count, we all know what that means. None of this five +innings BS we've been seeing when they're pitching poorly.

When we signed him, I wasn't giving into the hype. I refused to be taken in by his "scrappiness" or his "hustle". I KNEW for a fact that our ground ball pitchers would rue the day Renteria left (and I also agreed he wasn't worth the money he signed). Eckstein has exceeded my expectations in every aspect.

The Cardinals' injuries were a problem and I think everyone would say that. But there is a difference between the Cardinals' and Cubs' injuries. Turn the clock back to March 31st and give me the Cards top three players who must remain healthy. I'd bet you would've said Carpenter, Izzy (maybe Mulder) and Pujols. Well, Izzy spent 15 days on the disabled list and Carpenter and Pujols weren't on the disabled list. Ask a Cub fan and we would've said Wood, Prior and Zambrano (of fill in the blank on the third player). Depending on our third player all three could've been on the disabled list --- missing many more than 15 days. The Cardinals have done an outstanding job considering the players they missed at times this season. But as I said, sometimes it's not the number of players but which ones that make a difference. Then at some point durability has to be factored in to the value of a pitcher. I'd say the reason the Cards were able to manage the injuries of so many position players at the same time was because of their bench depth which Prior probably needs to add to his list of differences. And because Eckstein is having a good season getting on base, Pujols is being Pujols, Molina's bat has been better than expected. Yes, bench depth is something Prior needs to add. But if you were on here at the beginning of the season (maybe you were) many of us didn't like our bench. I would love to know how many teams(not named Atlanta) could miss their #1 starter for pretty much the entire season, and lose their #2 guy for about three months and still make the playoffs? Molina was one of the guys missing for months. You named Atlanta, but also Red Sox and Yankees. Most likely teams that aren't heavily weighted toward starting pitching and teams that were legit contenders to start with.

Who will experience a bigger drop off next year?

The Cardinals' injuries were a problem and I think everyone would say that. But there is a difference between the Cardinals' and Cubs' injuries. Turn the clock back to March 31st and give me the Cards top three players who must remain healthy. I'd bet you would've said Carpenter, Izzy (maybe Mulder) and Pujols. Well, Izzy spent 15 days on the disabled list and Carpenter and Pujols weren't on the disabled list. Ask a Cub fan and we would've said Wood, Prior and Zambrano (of fill in the blank on the third player). Depending on our third player all three could've been on the disabled list --- missing many more than 15 days. The Cardinals have done an outstanding job considering the players they missed at times this season. But as I said, sometimes it's not the number of players but which ones that make a difference. Then at some point durability has to be factored in to the value of a pitcher. I'd say the reason the Cards were able to manage the injuries of so many position players at the same time was because of their bench depth which Prior probably needs to add to his list of differences.

OK, what would happen to Patterson? Would you trade him while his value is this low?

Regarding Prior's original comments about staying healthy, the same could apply to the Cards too.

It's tough to allocate the dollars needed for a starter like Millwood for insurance purposes, especially with the thin starting pitcher market. Although the injury assumption to a rotation member is a good probability, it seems those dollars would be better allocated to RF, SS, bullpen, and possibly 2nd. As we've seen this year, even rich teams like Boston and NYY weren't able injury proof their rotation. Who is most likely to be manning CF for the Cubs next year? Still Patterson or Pie or Hairston? Ironically, the Cards were in a better position this year to take a starting pitcher injury with Reyes available. If he's slotted in the rotation next year, they lose that depth. Most likely Morris, but maybe Marquis will be gone next year. Cards also need a RF, 2nd base, and veteran LH relief in that order. I'll be very disappointed if they try to slot Luna at 2nd.

Carpenter led in pitching Win Shares, last time I checked, and Clemens' lead in VORP is minimal enough now that I don't think that even the VORP folks can justify voting for Clemens over Carpenter, given the 9 extra wins, and the 26 extra innings that Carpenter has pitched. But, the season isn't over yet. If Carpenter stumbles, he's toast. If Carpenter stumbles, we're toast.

Why no Mon. night baseball on ESPN tonight?

Man Eating Tarp, I sold my tix to today's game :evil: . Did you by chance get doused with champagne by the players outside of the clubhouse as has been reported?

Looks like today Tony shuffled the rotation around for the Cincy series. It's now looking like Suppan will be the 3rd starter for the playoffs. Glad to see LaRussa's not that stubborn!

So 5 of the 8 position players on the Cubs are better than the Cards, and 6th one is a wash this year (Lee/Pujols). So that means that you'd only take the Cards for 2 of the 8 positions? And yet the Cards have scored 80 more runs than the Cubs. I don't get your logic. isn't wolf a cards fan? I don't know. His logic is flawed, regardless of who he's a fan of. i'd take burnitz over taguchi, barrett over molina, and a healthy nomar over eckstein. i'd also take walker over grudz (he's better in every offensive category of significance). aram and rolen will probably be a wash from here on out. i'd take pujols over lee, edmonds over anyone in the national league, and larry walker over whatever there is that's left. the fact is, the cubs have a better OPS than the cards, despiet the fact that the cards have scored 80 more runs is a testimony to either the .012 OBP advantage (and a better hitting philosophy) that they have over the cubs, or luck. bp third order adjusted standings CARDS 85-63 677 runs scored, 579 runs allowed CUBS 79-68 688 runs scored, 639 runs allowed the cards are the best team in the division, but they've been real, real lucky too. they're 9.5 games better than projected (the white sox are the only team luckier, with 9.8, and that number has been dropping for some time now). the cubs are 6.5 games worse than projected, which is third most unlucky, behind only the mets (-9.5) and rangers (-8.2). As you'd expect from a team with the most wins in the NL. Where's Atlanta on the projected wins/losses? The way I see it, if the Cards performed as expected, they'd have Atlanta's record.

If they call this game, it goes down as a win for the Cards, sorry partner.

By that logic why are they playing even one inning? Huh, don't know if I get you. I don't know if you saw what was going on at there, but it appeared to be raining very hard. If we lost one of our regular starters, no, it wouldn't be worth playing the series with the Cubs. I don't know if you noticed, but we've had a rash of position player injuries and we've also lost a player in the past from playing in sloppy conditions at Wrigley.

Sorry, that's two plays that were rain impeded. I don't agree with playing in these conditions. I would guarantee you the Cards would happily give up all four games to the Cubs if their starters were in tact after this series.

I'm not a big fan of playing in these conditions.

That and the girls in your sig.