What Phils got for Thome vs. Cubs got for Sosa

[seanhopper]

I know this was likely mentioned in the long thread related to the Sox deal for Thome, but I thought it deserved a little discussion.

 

If you look at the deal Gillick was able to put together for a player coming off a major injury riddled season and compare that to what the Cubs were able to get for Sosa, it's night and day. It just goes to show the desperation Hendry was in and how they mismanagement the deal with Baltimore (and anyone else who they spoke with) from the beginning. Now, we have the benefit of hindsight to see that Sosa had an awful year and was clearly on the downside of his career, but who's to say Thome's going to come back and hit 30-40hrs. like he did 2yrs. ago. He's getting up there in age and the Sox are on the hook for more yrs. and more $'s (even after the money Philly sent to the Sox) than the Balt. was with Sosa.

 

The Cubs received practically a platoon player and 2 minor leaguers who were in the top 15 (not the top 5) of one of the worst systems in the ML. The Phillies picked up a legitimate starting center fielder with a few good yrs. under his belt with likely some good yrs. ahead of him, as well as 2 of the better pitching prospects from a strong minor league system.

 

I am just astounded by it really--and again you have to think back to where Sosa was last offseason (with the #'s and age) vs. Thome this offseason. Not much of a difference really and if anything Thome's injury is more career hampering. I guess we can chalk it up to the fact that the scouts, across the ML, really knew Sosa was done or very close to it.

[CubinNY]

I guess we can chalk it up to the fact that the scouts, across the ML, really knew Sosa was done or very close to it.

 

or the terrible way the Cubs handled Sosa leaving earliy? take your pick.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

I know this was likely mentioned in the long thread related to the Sox deal for Thome, but I thought it deserved a little discussion.

 

If you look at the deal Gillick was able to put together for a player coming off a major injury riddled season and compare that to what the Cubs were able to get for Sosa, it's night and day. It just goes to show the desperation Hendry was in and how they mismanagement the deal with Baltimore (and anyone else who they spoke with) from the beginning. Now, we have the benefit of hindsight to see that Sosa had an awful year and was clearly on the downside of his career, but who's to say Thome's going to come back and hit 30-40hrs. like he did 2yrs. ago. He's getting up there in age and the Sox are on the hook for more yrs. and more $'s (even after the money Philly sent to the Sox) than the Balt. was with Sosa.

 

The Cubs received practically a platoon player and 2 minor leaguers who were in the top 15 (not the top 5) of one of the worst systems in the ML. The Phillies picked up a legitimate starting center fielder with a few good yrs. under his belt with likely some good yrs. ahead of him, as well as 2 of the better pitching prospects from a strong minor league system.

 

I am just astounded by it really--and again you have to think back to where Sosa was last offseason (with the #'s and age) vs. Thome this offseason. Not much of a difference really and if anything Thome's injury is more career hampering. I guess we can chalk it up to the fact that the scouts, across the ML, really knew Sosa was done or very close to it.

Your comparing apples to oranges.

[roadster]

I know this was likely mentioned in the long thread related to the Sox deal for Thome, but I thought it deserved a little discussion.

 

If you look at the deal Gillick was able to put together for a player coming off a major injury riddled season and compare that to what the Cubs were able to get for Sosa, it's night and day. It just goes to show the desperation Hendry was in and how they mismanagement the deal with Baltimore (and anyone else who they spoke with) from the beginning. Now, we have the benefit of hindsight to see that Sosa had an awful year and was clearly on the downside of his career, but who's to say Thome's going to come back and hit 30-40hrs. like he did 2yrs. ago. He's getting up there in age and the Sox are on the hook for more yrs. and more $'s (even after the money Philly sent to the Sox) than the Balt. was with Sosa.

 

The Cubs received practically a platoon player and 2 minor leaguers who were in the top 15 (not the top 5) of one of the worst systems in the ML. The Phillies picked up a legitimate starting center fielder with a few good yrs. under his belt with likely some good yrs. ahead of him, as well as 2 of the better pitching prospects from a strong minor league system.

 

I am just astounded by it really--and again you have to think back to where Sosa was last offseason (with the #'s and age) vs. Thome this offseason. Not much of a difference really and if anything Thome's injury is more career hampering. I guess we can chalk it up to the fact that the scouts, across the ML, really knew Sosa was done or very close to it.

 

One big difference is the amount of money that the Phillies picked up ($22m) vs what the Cubs picked-up (don't remember how much but much less than $22m).

[sweetpeteman]

Also: A lot of people expected Sosa to have this type of year. He was coming off 2 down years and was showing how poor of an attitude he has. Thome meanwhile was a pure money dump, not and attitude dump. He can still have a really good season and be a real help to his team. The situations are much different.

[SteveSarley]

Sosa forced the trade, plain and simple.

Everyone in baseball knew that he couldn't go back to the Cubs.

Plus, he had gone down in BA, HR's, & RBI's for three consecutive seasons, something not done in over 20 years. (I believe that Kevin McReynolds was the last to do this, in the early nineties)

Throw in the incredibly overpaid salary and the whispers about steroids and you have a player nearly impossible to deal.

Even though Hendry kept up a brave face, saying that he expected Sammy back and Sammy to rebound, yadda, yadda, everyone knew he couldn't bring him back.

They were lucky to get anything in return at all.

[kroth1342]

Plus I don't think any teams might have had post-steroid dropoff concerns for Thome unlike a certain Dominican outfielder.

[Blueheart05]

Plus I don't think any teams might have had post-steroid dropoff concerns for Thome unlike a certain Dominican outfielder.

 

Quite the contrary, I've heard grumblings about Thome's alleged connection to steroids. Some people were/are concerned that his body appeared to break down in the midst of tougher drug testing. Could it be a side affect of nolonger using a performance enhancing drug? Also, his homerun and RBI production increased markedly after the age of 30. I am very curious to see what kind of offense he will provide (and if he can stay healthy).

[erik316wttn]

The reason that the trades were so different was that the Cubs showed absolute desperation to get rid of Sammy. Nobody is going to give you market value for a player when you make it known just how badly you need to get rid of him.

 

Philly put some feelers out about Thome, but didn't make it known that they were desperate to get rid of him, and they got a decent return.

 

Funny how that works.

[erik316wttn]

The reason that the trades were so different was that the Cubs showed absolute desperation to get rid of Sammy. Nobody is going to give you market value for a player when you make it known just how badly you need to get rid of him.

 

Philly put some feelers out about Thome, but didn't make it known that they were desperate to get rid of him, and they got a decent return.

 

Funny how that works.

[UBlink]

Nobody is going to give you market value for a player when you make it known just how badly you need to get rid of him.

 

 

If there are several teams interested in the player you are desperate to get rid of, how do they decide which one gets him for less than market value?

 

Now if you make statements that have the effect of lowering the market value that's a different issue.

[SouthSideRyan]

Pass.

[seanhopper]

As I mentioned in my original post, Hendry (likely due to the way the whole debacle between Sosa and the team played out in the press) was dealing from desperation and the entire process was managed incorrectly. If they went into the offseason with the mindset that if the right deal came along they'll take it vs. we need to get rid of him, the outcome would have likely been different.

[erik316wttn]

Nobody is going to give you market value for a player when you make it known just how badly you need to get rid of him.

 

 

If there are several teams interested in the player you are desperate to get rid of, how do they decide which one gets him for less than market value?

 

Now if you make statements that have the effect of lowering the market value that's a different issue.

 

Well, when ALL of them are offering less than market value, then you're pretty much stuck no matter who you go with, aren't you?

[CubsWin]

The reason that the trades were so different was that the Cubs showed absolute desperation to get rid of Sammy. Nobody is going to give you market value for a player when you make it known just how badly you need to get rid of him.

 

Philly put some feelers out about Thome, but didn't make it known that they were desperate to get rid of him, and they got a decent return.

 

Funny how that works.

That sounds like revisionist history to me. I can recall several articles last off season in which Hendry was quoted as saying that it looked like Sammy would not be traded. He was willing to hang on to him and go into next season with Sammy in RF. Doesn't sound to desperate to me.

 

Now the releasing of the videotape showing Sammy leaving early was dumb, but that is not the same thing as announcing to the world that you are desperate to trade the guy.

[CubsWin]

The huge difference between Thome's ability to produce and Sammy's has a lot more to do with what the Cubs got back than any appearance of desperation.

 

Sammy was done. His declining numbers over the previous three seasons provided plenty of evidence to that effect. Thome's numbers previous to his injury-riddled 2005 were right in line with his career averages. He was still pumping out a .970 OPS in '04 which is the last full season he played. The numbers he put up in '03 and '04 are very similar to the numbers he produced in '99 and '00. The statistical evidence to support Thome being able to produce like that in the coming season is there.

 

That same evidence just wasn't there for Sammy. Neither logic, statistics nor the direct quotes of the time support the position that the reason why the Cubs got back what they did for Sammy is because Hendry was sending the message that the Cubs were desperate to get rid of him.

 

Look, there are plenty of things to criticize Hendry for. This just isn't one of them.

[fearthecubs]

Not the same situation at all.

 

Everyone in baseball, including the Orioles, knew Sosa would have a horrendous '05 campaign. You're kidding yourself if you think the O's expected anything more than ticket sales out of Sosa last year. He's washed up.

[Careless]

Not the same situation at all.

 

Everyone in baseball, including the Sox, knew thome would have a horrendous '06 campaign. You're kidding yourself if you think the Sox expected anything more than ticket sales out of thome next year. He's washed up.

edited to fit reality

[Mark_R]

Wait, teams KNEW the Phillies had to deal one of their first basemen. This isn't the same situation at all. While the Phillies weren't as forceful with their acknowledgement of a deal. But most everyone HAD to realize that they couldn't go another season with both Thome and Ryan Howard. They wouldn't do a platoon, Thome can only play first or DH. Howard can only play first.

 

Other teams knew they were in a huge bind.

[UBlink]

Nobody is going to give you market value for a player when you make it known just how badly you need to get rid of him.

 

 

If there are several teams interested in the player you are desperate to get rid of, how do they decide which one gets him for less than market value?

 

Now if you make statements that have the effect of lowering the market value that's a different issue.

 

Well, when ALL of them are offering less than market value, then you're pretty much stuck no matter who you go with, aren't you?

 

I'm looking at it from the perspective of the potential buyers. In my scenario several teams are interested in a player and only one is going to get him. If you are one of the teams that does not get the valuable player at a below market price, how do you explain that you were willing to miss out on a good player because you were unwilling to top a below market offer?