Jones or Wilkerson? Other options?

[fearthecubs]

I'd rather have Wilkerson's batting eye to Jones's quick bat. As players age, bat speed is one of the things they lose; batting eye isn't. Jones's quick bat hasn't helped him so far, I don't see why it would suddenly begin to be any more of a factor now. And it is quite likely, that his bat speed has helped him put up what is lack luster numbers. As that bat slows, those numbers will drop further. With his skill set, he's unable to put up a decent OBP inspite of a declining BA. Wilkerson has shown the ability to do just that. And even with Jones's speed, he's been unable to use it to effectively help out his game. He doesn't get enough triples or doubles with it and has been an ineffective base stealer.

 

Wilkerson is no slouch defensively as well. So, given all the evidence, Wilkerson is by far a better acquistion.

 

Ha, are you ending the conversation by yourself? Batting eye won't help you if you can't hit the ball for power, and I don't really see Wilkerson or Jones as having high range power. Jones does have, by far, the faster bat. Plus more speed, which again, will die out long past Wilkersons. I also severely question Wilkerson's ability to play for a team like the Cubs being coached in such a horrible system, Jones comes from a team with a quality farm system and a quality head coach. I'd trust him to be more consistant and able to handle the different surroundings that Wrigley presents.

 

Batting eye will always help you. It helps you get on base. Wilkerson has consistently gotten on base at a clip of 100 points higher than his BA. It isn't a one year fluke. Take a look at the numbers: BA/OBP

2005: 248/351

2004: 255/374

2003: 268/380

2002: 266/370

2001: 205/304

 

What that tells me is even if Wilkerson becomes a 220 hitter which I doubt, he'd still get on base enough to not be a complete black hole in the line-up. On the other hand, if he's a 260 hitter, then he's likely to be on base around 370-400.

 

Your speculation about organizations and coaching is just that speculation. That and 75 cents will get you a candy bar about anywhere in town.

 

As to Wilkerson's power, in the three of his four full seasons he has slugged over 450. He doesn't have prodigious power, but he can hit the ball for power. In fact, he probably has as much power as JJ.

 

Jones:

 

01- 276/335

02- 300/341

03- 304/333

04- 254/315

05- 249/319

 

While he's obviously under Wilkerson, unless he's hitting 2nd in the order, is nothing that is overwhelming towards one player or the other. Like I said, neither one has high range power.

 

Wilkerson has a .717 career OPS in day games.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Wilkerson has a .717 career OPS in day games.

 

That's because white guys don't play as well in the sun.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

 

Wilkerson has a .717 career OPS in day games.

 

That's because white guys don't play as well in the sun.

 

maybe we could get a good deal on sun block.

[fearthecubs]

Assuming we don't trade for Abreu, who the hell is going to play RF?

[fearthecubs]

 

Wilkerson has a .717 career OPS in day games.

 

That's because white guys don't play as well in the sun.

 

Do you think if Piniella had made that comment he'd have been fired?

[rocket]

Jacque Jones OPS in day games from 2002-2004: .682

His OPS in day games in 2005: .637

[Warpticon]

I'd rather have Wilkerson's batting eye to Jones's quick bat. As players age, bat speed is one of the things they lose; batting eye isn't. Jones's quick bat hasn't helped him so far, I don't see why it would suddenly begin to be any more of a factor now. And it is quite likely, that his bat speed has helped him put up what is lack luster numbers. As that bat slows, those numbers will drop further. With his skill set, he's unable to put up a decent OBP inspite of a declining BA. Wilkerson has shown the ability to do just that. And even with Jones's speed, he's been unable to use it to effectively help out his game. He doesn't get enough triples or doubles with it and has been an ineffective base stealer.

 

Wilkerson is no slouch defensively as well. So, given all the evidence, Wilkerson is by far a better acquistion.

 

Ha, are you ending the conversation by yourself? Batting eye won't help you if you can't hit the ball for power, and I don't really see Wilkerson or Jones as having high range power. Jones does have, by far, the faster bat. Plus more speed, which again, will die out long past Wilkersons. I also severely question Wilkerson's ability to play for a team like the Cubs being coached in such a horrible system, Jones comes from a team with a quality farm system and a quality head coach. I'd trust him to be more consistant and able to handle the different surroundings that Wrigley presents.

 

Batting eye will always help you. It helps you get on base. Wilkerson has consistently gotten on base at a clip of 100 points higher than his BA. It isn't a one year fluke. Take a look at the numbers: BA/OBP

2005: 248/351

2004: 255/374

2003: 268/380

2002: 266/370

2001: 205/304

 

What that tells me is even if Wilkerson becomes a 220 hitter which I doubt, he'd still get on base enough to not be a complete black hole in the line-up. On the other hand, if he's a 260 hitter, then he's likely to be on base around 370-400.

 

Your speculation about organizations and coaching is just that speculation. That and 75 cents will get you a candy bar about anywhere in town.

 

As to Wilkerson's power, in the three of his four full seasons he has slugged over 450. He doesn't have prodigious power, but he can hit the ball for power. In fact, he probably has as much power as JJ.

 

Jones:

 

01- 276/335

02- 300/341

03- 304/333

04- 254/315

05- 249/319

 

While he's obviously under Wilkerson, unless he's hitting 2nd in the order, is nothing that is overwhelming towards one player or the other. Like I said, neither one has high range power.

 

Wilkerson has a .717 career OPS in day games.

 

So being out-OBP'd by 30-60 points every single year isn't "overwhelming?" How is that?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

A 315 and 319 OBP is horrible. I don't care what spot in the order that is. Unless the player is a top notch SS or a superb catcher, there's no amount of defense that makes up for that.

 

If you look at the BA/OBP comparisons, here's how they match up over the last four seasons:

 

2002:

Jones- 300/341

Wilkerson- 266/370

 

Jones out hits Wilkerson by 34 points, but gives up 29 points in OBP.

 

2003:

Jones- 304/333

Wilkerson- 268/380

 

Jones outhits Wilkerson by 36 points, yet still gives up 47 points in OBP.

 

2004:

Jones- 254/315

Wilkerson- 255/374

 

Wilkerson easily the better player here.

 

2005:

Jones- 249/319

Wilkerson- 248/351

 

Once again the edge goes to Wilkerson.

 

What is clear is that Jones's OBP is dependent on his BA. Wilkerson's is not. Players who can get on base via the walk tend to do so later in their careers. Players who rely on speed tend to decline more rapidly. Wilkerson tends to be a player who will age better than Jones, and he's already two years younger.

 

Both players show about equal power when healthy. There's also no substantive proof that Jones is a better defender. He's spent a majority of his time as corner outfielder while Wilkerson has been a CF. Would Wilkerson be as good a CI as Jones? We don't know, but there's no reason to believe he wouldn't.

[Warpticon]

Edit: yay for board hangups! Edited November 27, 2005 by Warpticon

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Assuming we don't trade for Abreu, who the hell is going to play RF?

 

I'd trade for Bradley and Wilkerson and play one in CF and one in right. I really doubt we get Abreu, but that doesn't mean I'd want to settle for Jacque Jones. I'd rather trade for Mench or Ibanez than play Jones.

 

Juan Encarnacion is likely a better option than Jones, and I'm not really high on him.

 

I'd see if the Diamondbacks would be willing to trade Tracy before I'd make a run at Jones. Jones may be a nice complementary player on the right team, but there's little about him that impresses me.

 

I'd almost rather have Jeromy Burnitz back on a one year deal than to give Jones a three-year deal.

 

Finally, if we don't trade for Abreu, the best option is still to sign Brian Giles. Hell, if we can afford to piddle away 7 million on middle relievers on three year deals, why can't we pay Giles 3/39?

[Diffusion]

There's also no substantive proof that Jones is a better defender. He's spent a majority of his time as corner outfielder while Wilkerson has been a CF. Would Wilkerson be as good a CI as Jones? We don't know, but there's no reason to believe he wouldn't.

 

Leaving aside I have no idea what you mean by those last two sentences, the first two are pretty far-fetched. Jones has logged over 1000 innings in in CF over his career, and he certainly has the defensive tools to play the position: he's fast, he reads the ball off the bat well, he takes good routes, all in all he has great range, and he's got a strong if somewhat inaccurate arm too. While obviously we can't be entirely sure how he'd play in centre having not played there for a while, the odds of him not being better than Brad Wilkerson, who defensively is Jones minus the speed (and therefore some of the range) and the inaccurate arm, are pretty long.

[rawaction]

Assuming that the Pierre deal goes thru eventually, here are the names I want in RF for the Cubs next year, of the names that are or have been rumored to be available:

 

1st Tier

B. Giles

B. Abreu

A. Dunn

 

2nd Tier

C. Floyd

G. Jenkins

M. Bradley

B. Wilkerson

R. Ibanez

 

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

[rocket]

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

Why do you think Kearns is better than Wily Mo, out of curiousity?

[fearthecubs]

Assuming we don't trade for Abreu, who the hell is going to play RF?

 

I'd trade for Bradley and Wilkerson and play one in CF and one in right. I really doubt we get Abreu, but that doesn't mean I'd want to settle for Jacque Jones. I'd rather trade for Mench or Ibanez than play Jones.

 

Juan Encarnacion is likely a better option than Jones, and I'm not really high on him.

 

I'd see if the Diamondbacks would be willing to trade Tracy before I'd make a run at Jones. Jones may be a nice complementary player on the right team, but there's little about him that impresses me.

 

I'd almost rather have Jeromy Burnitz back on a one year deal than to give Jones a three-year deal.

 

Finally, if we don't trade for Abreu, the best option is still to sign Brian Giles. Hell, if we can afford to piddle away 7 million on middle relievers on three year deals, why can't we pay Giles 3/39?

 

There's no way I'd play Wilkerson in RF (or Jones). Bradley could handle it. I think Encarnacion is a better option than both Wilkerson and Jones.

 

There's no way the D'Backs trade Tracy if they have any sense, I mean why would they - doesn't he have a few years of arb. left?

 

I don't want the Cubs anywhere near Burnitz, he was serviceable last year, but he's getting pretty old now. We're the Cubs, we have money, if Burnitz is back we should riot on Waveland people.

[fearthecubs]

Did anyone else catch Bruce Levine talking about a Walker-for-Bradley deal? I didn't hear it personally...hence why I'm asking.

 

edit: and playing Walker at first. They aren't enamored with his 2B defense either.

Edited November 27, 2005 by fearthecubs

[Roast]

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

Why do you think Kearns is better than Wily Mo, out of curiousity?

I was wondering the same thing.

[fearthecubs]

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

Why do you think Kearns is better than Wily Mo, out of curiousity?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

Wily Mo strikes out 900 times a year.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Assuming that the Pierre deal goes thru eventually, here are the names I want in RF for the Cubs next year, of the names that are or have been rumored to be available:

 

1st Tier

B. Giles

B. Abreu

A. Dunn

 

2nd Tier

C. Floyd

G. Jenkins

M. Bradley

B. Wilkerson

R. Ibanez

 

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

I could agree with that, but I'd probably move Pena into the 3rd Tier. I'd probably put Chad Tracy in the second tier.

 

Also, if Murton could play RF (and I have my doubts that he can), I wouldn't mind looking into Luis Gonzalez. (Put him in the third tier.)

[rocket]

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

Why do you think Kearns is better than Wily Mo, out of curiousity?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

Wily Mo strikes out 900 times a year.

 

thanks raw

[rawaction]

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

Why do you think Kearns is better than Wily Mo, out of curiousity?

 

Much better clue at the plate, as far as strikezone judgement and control of it. The power is very comparable. Not much difference anywhere else.

[fearthecubs]

 

thanks raw

 

I'm sorry. I'll run it by you next time I want to post in my own thread, Mom.

[TrueBlueCubFan]

Assuming that the Pierre deal goes thru eventually, here are the names I want in RF for the Cubs next year, of the names that are or have been rumored to be available:

 

1st Tier

B. Giles

B. Abreu

A. Dunn

 

2nd Tier

C. Floyd

G. Jenkins

M. Bradley

B. Wilkerson

R. Ibanez

 

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

Jenkins 2nd tier? Not sure I agree with that one.

[rawaction]

Assuming that the Pierre deal goes thru eventually, here are the names I want in RF for the Cubs next year, of the names that are or have been rumored to be available:

 

1st Tier

B. Giles

B. Abreu

A. Dunn

 

2nd Tier

C. Floyd

G. Jenkins

M. Bradley

B. Wilkerson

R. Ibanez

 

3rd Tier

J. Encarnacion

K. Mench

A. Kearns

 

4th Tier

J. Burnitz

J. Jones

W. Pena

 

I could agree with that, but I'd probably move Pena into the 3rd Tier. I'd probably put Chad Tracy in the second tier.

 

Also, if Murton could play RF (and I have my doubts that he can), I wouldn't mind looking into Luis Gonzalez. (Put him in the third tier.)

 

I'd actually put Tracy in the bottom of the 1st tier. He'd be the cheapest of that group to acquire, to pay, and has the most upside.

[rocket]

 

thanks raw

 

I'm sorry. I'll run it by you next time I want to post in my own thread, Mom.

 

Maybe you should if your post isn't funny or insightful.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Assuming we don't trade for Abreu, who the hell is going to play RF?

 

I'd trade for Bradley and Wilkerson and play one in CF and one in right. I really doubt we get Abreu, but that doesn't mean I'd want to settle for Jacque Jones. I'd rather trade for Mench or Ibanez than play Jones.

 

Juan Encarnacion is likely a better option than Jones, and I'm not really high on him.

 

I'd see if the Diamondbacks would be willing to trade Tracy before I'd make a run at Jones. Jones may be a nice complementary player on the right team, but there's little about him that impresses me.

 

I'd almost rather have Jeromy Burnitz back on a one year deal than to give Jones a three-year deal.

 

Finally, if we don't trade for Abreu, the best option is still to sign Brian Giles. Hell, if we can afford to piddle away 7 million on middle relievers on three year deals, why can't we pay Giles 3/39?

 

There's no way I'd play Wilkerson in RF (or Jones). Bradley could handle it. I think Encarnacion is a better option than both Wilkerson and Jones.

 

There's no way the D'Backs trade Tracy if they have any sense, I mean why would they - doesn't he have a few years of arb. left?

 

I don't want the Cubs anywhere near Burnitz, he was serviceable last year, but he's getting pretty old now. We're the Cubs, we have money, if Burnitz is back we should riot on Waveland people.

 

I think Wilkerson could handle RF, but ideally you'd like better production from your RF. (However, Wilkerson would produce more than what Burnitz gave us last season.) Defensively, I don't think Wilkerson would have a problem in right. If Wilkerson were our RF and Bradley were our CF, I think the overall OF production would be ok. (Just think about a line-up where every hitter could post a 350+ OBP)

 

As to why the D'backs trade Tracy: They have the following players for four spots: Luis Gonzalez, Connor Jackson, Carlos Quentin, Troy Glaus, Chad Tracy, and Tony Clark.

 

While it baffles me that they would keep Clark, they just signed him to an extension, so you can pencil him in at firstbase. The smart move would be to trade Glaus and put Tracy at third. If they keep Glaus, they have Jackson, Gonzalez, Quentin, and Tracy for LF and RF. They could move Tracy because of that.