Crasnick on the last days of the sinking ship Patterson

[fearthecubs]

I really don't see why anyone is getting all bent out of shape that Diffusion posted a scouting report on Piggy that is very accurate.

 

My feeling is if you can't handle someone posting info that contradicts or adds to what you post, you really shouldn't put your ideas out for public consumption.

 

clearly vance, the problem was with the statement that Jehrico was "making it up as he went along." This statement is definitely inflammatory, insulting, and contributes nothing to the topic. I enjoyed seeing the scouting report but could have done without the personal attack.

 

Piggy's k rates are likely what excites people here more than the odds being stacked against him, but I'll speak only for myself on that topic.

 

Ooh, you know what. Sorry, Jericho - I didn't see that "making it up as you go along".....that is sort of uncalled for.

[Tim]

Piggy gets a 2 out of 3 ranking on the three true outcomes. He generates a lot of K's. He doesn't really walk that many guys. But he has had a history of giving up too many HR. So that's one strike against him.

 

Another is the general history with soft-tossing guys with a good feel and good breaking stuff. They do very well at the lower levels where there are a lot of free swingers and where not many guys know how to hit a well-placed breaking ball. These pitchers tend to get eaten up as they make the jump to the PCL where there are a lot of experienced hitters and have the odds stacked seriously against them in moving to the majors. So, even though they put up good numbers in the lower minors, people don't get excited about them because of this history.

 

Carmen was able to keep up the strikeout rate in AAA, but also had a lot of guys laying off the breaking stuff (which increased his walk rate). Also, those 6 HR in 47 IP is a definite concern. He's got a chance to make it as a lefty specialist, but it is very doubtful that he'll ever get serious consideration for a rotation spot.

[USSoccer]

Piggy gets a 2 out of 3 ranking on the three true outcomes. He generates a lot of K's. He doesn't really walk that many guys. But he has had a history of giving up too many HR. So that's one strike against him.

 

Another is the general history with soft-tossing guys with a good feel and good breaking stuff. They do very well at the lower levels where there are a lot of free swingers and where not many guys know how to hit a well-placed breaking ball. These pitchers tend to get eaten up as they make the jump to the PCL where there are a lot of experienced hitters and have the odds stacked seriously against them in moving to the majors. So, even though they put up good numbers in the lower minors, people don't get excited about them because of this history.

 

Carmen was able to keep up the strikeout rate in AAA, but also had a lot of guys laying off the breaking stuff (which increased his walk rate). Also, those 6 HR in 47 IP is a definite concern. He's got a chance to make it as a lefty specialist, but it is very doubtful that he'll ever get serious consideration for a rotation spot.

 

I've heard him compared to Noah Lowry.

[stitchface]

Piggy gets a 2 out of 3 ranking on the three true outcomes. He generates a lot of K's. He doesn't really walk that many guys. But he has had a history of giving up too many HR. So that's one strike against him.

 

Another is the general history with soft-tossing guys with a good feel and good breaking stuff. They do very well at the lower levels where there are a lot of free swingers and where not many guys know how to hit a well-placed breaking ball. These pitchers tend to get eaten up as they make the jump to the PCL where there are a lot of experienced hitters and have the odds stacked seriously against them in moving to the majors. So, even though they put up good numbers in the lower minors, people don't get excited about them because of this history.

 

Carmen was able to keep up the strikeout rate in AAA, but also had a lot of guys laying off the breaking stuff (which increased his walk rate). Also, those 6 HR in 47 IP is a definite concern. He's got a chance to make it as a lefty specialist, but it is very doubtful that he'll ever get serious consideration for a rotation spot.

 

 

I'm sure that's all true but I still like a him better than a soft tossing lefty that doesn't strike anybody out.

[Tim]

Piggy gets a 2 out of 3 ranking on the three true outcomes. He generates a lot of K's. He doesn't really walk that many guys. But he has had a history of giving up too many HR. So that's one strike against him.

 

Another is the general history with soft-tossing guys with a good feel and good breaking stuff. They do very well at the lower levels where there are a lot of free swingers and where not many guys know how to hit a well-placed breaking ball. These pitchers tend to get eaten up as they make the jump to the PCL where there are a lot of experienced hitters and have the odds stacked seriously against them in moving to the majors. So, even though they put up good numbers in the lower minors, people don't get excited about them because of this history.

 

Carmen was able to keep up the strikeout rate in AAA, but also had a lot of guys laying off the breaking stuff (which increased his walk rate). Also, those 6 HR in 47 IP is a definite concern. He's got a chance to make it as a lefty specialist, but it is very doubtful that he'll ever get serious consideration for a rotation spot.

 

 

I'm sure that's all true but I still like a him better than a soft tossing lefty that doesn't strike anybody out.

That much is certainly true.

 

BTW - I'd love to have Piggy prove me wrong. He's a local boy and everything.

[Diffusion]

I'll retract the "making it up as you go along" comment if it's that much of an issue. Personally I think it's pretty harmless, and, since I doubt think Jehrico will find a single person on the face of the planet to agree with statements such as "Piggy is more overpowering than Ricky Nolasco", I think you can see why I said it and what I was getting at.

 

Overpowering doesn't always mean speed.

 

Put it this way - I've never seen Jamie Moyer described as overpowering. Generally, when people talk about overpowering, it's taken that they mean that a pitcher has great stuff and knows how to use it, a big, big fastball that no-one can catch up too and some unhittable breaking stuff.

 

Based on my personal observations, hitters had a considerable harder time putting any kind of wood on the ball against Pigs than Nolasco.

 

I don't have a problem with you having seen them play just all of three appearances, which is your line of defence here. I do have a problem with you seemingly drawing all your conclusions from just those three games. You've seen Ricky Nolasco once. Was this recently? Were the Pignatiello appearances you saw recently? Even if they were, how do you know that you caught them on days when their performances were truly reflective of their abilities? How do you know that things haven't changed since you saw them? And why is that all the other people that have seen them, including the professionals, all disagree with the conclusions you've come to [baseball America today name Ricky Nolasco the seventh best prospect in the Cub system, Carmen Pignatiello was nowhere to be seen, and wouldn't be labelled "overpowering" even he was]? Do these questions not occur to you?

 

The strikeout numbers suggest that hitters found it harder to put any kind of wood on the ball against Nolasco than Piggy in 2005. Unless, of course, they weren't trying against Nolasco.

 

And while I'm at it, going back and doing some homework, Ricky Nolasco repeated AA last year. He got a taste of AAA in 2004, and his K rate suffered quite a big drop. Piggy, on the other hand, struggled like Nolasco in his first taste of AAA, but his K rate remained fairly constant. So while you're going to accuse me of just making it up, that would tend to support my belief that Piggy's stuff will hold up a little better at higher levels than Nolascos, as Pig's peripherals didn't take a big hit at the next level.

 

Do you know the history regarding Nolasco's promotion to AAA? The Cubs had a vacancy in the Iowa rotation, and didn't have an obvious candidate to fill it. Nolasco had been pitching reasonably well at West Tennessee, but was considered by a lot of people to not be ready for a promotion, particularly since the jump from Double-A to Triple-A is one of the biggest for a pitcher (pitcher's park in a pitcher's league to a neutral park in a hitter's league one level up). Oneri Fleita made the decision though, and, give him credit, took full responsibility for things afterwards, admitting that he pushed Nolasco too hard too soon. Pignatiello on the other hand was wearing Double-A out, as you'd expect since he was repeating the level, and was ready for his promotion when it came.

 

At the end of the day, I can understand scepticism when it comes to Ricky Nolasco. What I cannot understand is that you're convinced that a guy with a fastball that sits at 83mph is a whole lot better a bet to make it. You have to understand that the odds are stacked against Pignatiello ever being given a chance to pitch in the majors. And it's pretty hard to succeed in the majors if you're never given the chance. Nolasco on the other hand will at least be given opportunities, that's almost a certainty, and you shouldn't be surprised if he takes them. It really says it all that the Cubs decided to protect Nolasco from the Rule 5 draft, while Pignatiello wasn't added to the 40-man roster, and so can be had for just about nothing if someone's willing to keep him on their major league roster all next year. And no-one will be willing.

 

Yes, I'd trade Nolasco before I trade Pignatiello too, but only because he's the one that's going to actually yield a return. As JeffH said before, Pignatiello has just about zero trade value.

[BigbadB]

Personally I think it's pretty harmless....

 

Personally, I think it was absolutely unnecessary. Personal insults are never harmless. More than anything, they reduce the value of your own argument.

 

Personal insults drive down the value of this community. I can't seem to read through a single thread these days without finding a personal insult somewhere. Considering the ever increasing list of moderators being added to this site, I can't imagine that my findings are that far off.

 

It's called policing yourselves, folks. Why must it always take a moderator to remind someone when they are acting out of line?

 

By the way, other than the "maybe your making stuff up" comment, I thought the rest of your argument was quite good. You used facts to show why you believe Nolasco is more overpowering than Piggy.

[goonys evil twin]

It really says it all that the Cubs decided to protect Nolasco from the Rule 5 draft, while Pignatiello wasn't added to the 40-man roster, and so can be had for just about nothing if someone's willing to keep him on their major league roster all next year.

 

I don't think that says it all. The Cubs aren't exactly running on a record of superior decision making skills in this department.

 

I think I pretty much agree with your take on the situation, but I wouldn't use that bit of information as any sort of evidence for support in your favor.

[Diffusion]

Personally I think it's pretty harmless....

 

Personally, I think it was absolutely unnecessary. Personal insults are never harmless. More than anything, they reduce the value of your own argument.

 

Personal insults drive down the value of this community.

 

You class "you're making things up as you go along" as a personal insult?

 

I don't think that says it all. The Cubs aren't exactly running on a record of superior decision making skills in this department.

 

I think I pretty much agree with your take on the situation, but I wouldn't use that bit of information as any sort of evidence for support in your favor.

 

I take your point about the Cubs having an imperfect record when it comes to deciding which players to protect on the 40-man roster, but, unless you've heard a single dissenting opinion in this particular instance, someone that believes either that Nolasco should have been left off the roster or Pignatiello added, or both, then my point is still valid.

[Jehrico]

Personally I think it's pretty harmless....

 

Personally, I think it was absolutely unnecessary. Personal insults are never harmless. More than anything, they reduce the value of your own argument.

 

Personal insults drive down the value of this community.

 

You class "you're making things up as you go along" as a personal insult?

 

I don't think that says it all. The Cubs aren't exactly running on a record of superior decision making skills in this department.

 

I think I pretty much agree with your take on the situation, but I wouldn't use that bit of information as any sort of evidence for support in your favor.

 

I take your point about the Cubs having an imperfect record when it comes to deciding which players to protect on the 40-man roster, but, unless you've heard a single dissenting opinion in this particular instance, someone that believes either that Nolasco should have been left off the roster or Pignatiello added, or both, then my point is still valid.

 

Yes, implying that I was "making things up as I go along" is insulting, as you are trying to drive down someone else's reputation. It's slander. Not too different than calling someone a jerk.

 

As to your earlier post, you commented on me making opinions based on seeing Nolasco once. For starters, I never qualified myself as a "scout," nor did I offer my opinion before it was asked. Now that I relook the thread, you're the one that asked me what I thought of them. I answered, and never did I imply that I had extensive experience watching them. I offered up what little insight I had based on my limited experience I had observing them. Nor did I ever say they should have protected Pigs or anything of that nature.

[BigbadB]

You class "you're making things up as you go along" as a personal insult?

 

Yes. It is insulting to the person it was directed towards. But, since you have retracted the statement and since the person it was directed at has agreed with me that it was insulting, I'll discontinue this discussion.

 

If you would like to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me.