Hahahahaha Johnny Damon

[nilodnayr]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

[USSoccer]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

 

Exactly. If I invest $10m over multiple years in a player I want Top 3 production from his position in the league, for the length of the contract. Damon won't deliver that.

[TheDude]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

 

Exactly. If I invest $10m over multiple years in a player I want Top 3 production from his position in the league, for the length of the contract. Damon won't deliver that.

Give me a list of ten players who have in the last 10 years produced in the top 3 for his position every single year of the contract and had a top 5 salary for the position. Good luck.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

 

Exactly. If I invest $10m over multiple years in a player I want Top 3 production from his position in the league, for the length of the contract. Damon won't deliver that.

Give me a list of ten players who have in the last 10 years produced in the top 3 for his position every single year of the contract and had a top 5 salary for the position. Good luck.

 

When was the last time a player of Damon's caliber got 8 figures? There can't be more than a couple since the market settled down several years ago. Renteria, Garret Anderson, Kendall maybe? All 3 of those are pretty bad contracts.

[USSoccer]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

 

Exactly. If I invest $10m over multiple years in a player I want Top 3 production from his position in the league, for the length of the contract. Damon won't deliver that.

Give me a list of ten players who have in the last 10 years produced in the top 3 for his position every single year of the contract and had a top 5 salary for the position. Good luck.

 

Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols and Manny Ramirez come immediatly to mind. Of course, those deals are still in progress, but you'd be hard pressed to see a signifigant decline from any of those guys. That's just 4 off the top of my head.

 

Also, your response basically confirmed what I am trying to say: big money players rarely are worth their salaries for the length of the contract, so you have to be careful who you shell out 8 figures to. Damon is a nice player, but not worth his asking price, and certainly not at the cost of blocking Pie.

Edited October 14, 2005 by USSoccer

[goonys evil twin]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

 

Exactly. If I invest $10m over multiple years in a player I want Top 3 production from his position in the league, for the length of the contract. Damon won't deliver that.

Give me a list of ten players who have in the last 10 years produced in the top 3 for his position every single year of the contract and had a top 5 salary for the position. Good luck.

 

Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez come immediatly to mind.

 

What about Miguel Tejada? Pujols has been top 3 with a top 5 salary ever since he resigned. Helton's been right around there. This seems like a rather odd exercise.

[CuseCubFan69]

How high would you all go for Damon?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How high would you all go for Damon?

 

Hmmm, 3/24 maybe? Like many things this offseason, it would depend how the rest of the offense is shaping out.

[USSoccer]

How high would you all go for Damon?

 

Hmmm, 3/24 maybe? Like many things this offseason, it would depend how the rest of the offense is shaping out.

 

I wouldn't sign him. What would you do with him in 2007 or 2008, when Pie will likely be here? Move him to the corner?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How high would you all go for Damon?

 

Hmmm, 3/24 maybe? Like many things this offseason, it would depend how the rest of the offense is shaping out.

 

I wouldn't sign him. What would you do with him in 2007 or 2008, when Pie will likely be here? Move him to the corner?

 

That's a valid point, but I don't think even with a player of Pie's talent that you can guarantee that he'll be up. However, that is worth considering in the FA market, which is another reason not to sign Damon. On the other hand, Pie wouldn't prevent me from trading for Milton Bradley.

[CuseCubFan69]

How high would you all go for Damon?

 

Hmmm, 3/24 maybe? Like many things this offseason, it would depend how the rest of the offense is shaping out.

 

I wouldn't sign him. What would you do with him in 2007 or 2008, when Pie will likely be here? Move him to the corner?

 

I would do it only if the Cubs have 3 power hitters at the infield postions.

 

Ramirez 3B ARod SS and Lee 1B and Cedeno 2B

 

Damon LF

Murton RF

ARod SS

Lee 1B

ARam 3B

Barrett C

Cedeno 2B

Pie CF

[USSoccer]

How high would you all go for Damon?

 

Hmmm, 3/24 maybe? Like many things this offseason, it would depend how the rest of the offense is shaping out.

 

I wouldn't sign him. What would you do with him in 2007 or 2008, when Pie will likely be here? Move him to the corner?

 

That's a valid point, but I don't think even with a player of Pie's talent that you can guarantee that he'll be up. However, that is worth considering in the FA market, which is another reason not to sign Damon. On the other hand, Pie wouldn't prevent me from trading for Milton Bradley.

 

Yeah, Pie wouldn't prevent me from trading for a CF for the next year, but I wouldn't commit big money to a FA if I believed that Felix was going to be a star.

[CuseCubFan69]

How high would you all go for Damon?

 

Hmmm, 3/24 maybe? Like many things this offseason, it would depend how the rest of the offense is shaping out.

 

I wouldn't sign him. What would you do with him in 2007 or 2008, when Pie will likely be here? Move him to the corner?

 

That's a valid point, but I don't think even with a player of Pie's talent that you can guarantee that he'll be up. However, that is worth considering in the FA market, which is another reason not to sign Damon. On the other hand, Pie wouldn't prevent me from trading for Milton Bradley.

 

Yeah, Pie wouldn't prevent me from trading for a CF for the next year, but I wouldn't commit big money to a FA if I believed that Felix was going to be a star.

 

I wonder if Pie would ever have enough power to be a corner OF?

[fromthestretch]

How high would you all go for Damon?

 

Hmmm, 3/24 maybe? Like many things this offseason, it would depend how the rest of the offense is shaping out.

 

I wouldn't sign him. What would you do with him in 2007 or 2008, when Pie will likely be here? Move him to the corner?

 

Damon has played quite a bit of left field in his career...over 300 games I believe. With his arm, I certainly wouldn't want him in right field, but he could play left. That said, you'd probably want a bit more power from a corner spot, so if he's in left, you'd want to have some extra power at a position you don't normally get it from...such as 2B or SS.

[TheDude]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

 

Exactly. If I invest $10m over multiple years in a player I want Top 3 production from his position in the league, for the length of the contract. Damon won't deliver that.

Give me a list of ten players who have in the last 10 years produced in the top 3 for his position every single year of the contract and had a top 5 salary for the position. Good luck.

 

Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez come immediatly to mind.

 

What about Miguel Tejada? Pujols has been top 3 with a top 5 salary ever since he resigned. Helton's been right around there. This seems like a rather odd exercise.

It is an odd exercise, but just primarily points out that only elite players produce the value of high dollar contracts.

 

I'm trying to figure if Damon's asking price is a matter of market inflation for tier 2 players, or if Damon if asking for tier 1 money with a tier 2 resume.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

The whole point here isnt that Damon is a bad player, just like with Furcal he is a fine player but nothing great, and nothing that will live up close to the contract he will get this offseason. By bust people dont mean hes going to hit 200, they mean hes not going to produce like a 10M player is expected to produce.

 

Exactly. If I invest $10m over multiple years in a player I want Top 3 production from his position in the league, for the length of the contract. Damon won't deliver that.

Give me a list of ten players who have in the last 10 years produced in the top 3 for his position every single year of the contract and had a top 5 salary for the position. Good luck.

 

Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez come immediatly to mind.

 

What about Miguel Tejada? Pujols has been top 3 with a top 5 salary ever since he resigned. Helton's been right around there. This seems like a rather odd exercise.

It is an odd exercise, but just primarily points out that only elite players produce the value of high dollar contracts.

 

I'm trying to figure if Damon's asking price is a matter of market inflation for tier 2 players, or if Damon if asking for tier 1 money with a tier 2 resume.

 

I believe it's the case of the latter compounded by the fact that this is a weak free agent class.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm trying to figure if Damon's asking price is a matter of market inflation for tier 2 players, or if Damon if asking for tier 1 money with a tier 2 resume.

 

I always have a tough time defining what a tier 1 and tier 2 player is. I think there's less than 10 superstar position players in the game. There's probably another 10-20 perenial all star types who keep putting up good numbers.

 

I don't consider Johnny Damon to be in either group. I think of him as a good player to have on your team, but not a difference maker. If he's asking for 5/50, I think that's way too much for what he brings to the table (which is good, but not great OBP, some pop, decent speed and above average defense). But he's not great at any one part of the game. Looking at the "similar batters" category on his baseball reference page, it's tough to be impressed.

 

To date, he's probably been more or less fairly compensated, maybe a little overpaid making $7-8m per. But high salaries peaked earlier this decade, when your big time studs were getting $17m (aside from Jeter and Arod) and the 10-15 range was for other studs like Piazza, Tejada or Guerrero. Remember, though, he's past his peak performance years. If you sign him now, you're signing for what he did before, and frankly he didn't do that much. I wouldn't think about $10m per, no matter how many years. 3-5 years at $6m per might accurately reflect what he will give you, while 4/32 would be at the highest peak. And even there I'm not interested in the guy.

[TheDude]

I'm trying to figure if Damon's asking price is a matter of market inflation for tier 2 players, or if Damon if asking for tier 1 money with a tier 2 resume.

 

I always have a tough time defining what a tier 1 and tier 2 player is. I think there's less than 10 superstar position players in the game. There's probably another 10-20 perenial all star types who keep putting up good numbers.

 

I don't consider Johnny Damon to be in either group. I think of him as a good player to have on your team, but not a difference maker. If he's asking for 5/50, I think that's way too much for what he brings to the table (which is good, but not great OBP, some pop, decent speed and above average defense). But he's not great at any one part of the game. Looking at the "similar batters" category on his baseball reference page, it's tough to be impressed.

 

To date, he's probably been more or less fairly compensated, maybe a little overpaid making $7-8m per. But high salaries peaked earlier this decade, when your big time studs were getting $17m (aside from Jeter and Arod) and the 10-15 range was for other studs like Piazza, Tejada or Guerrero. Remember, though, he's past his peak performance years. If you sign him now, you're signing for what he did before, and frankly he didn't do that much. I wouldn't think about $10m per, no matter how many years. 3-5 years at $6m per might accurately reflect what he will give you, while 4/32 would be at the highest peak. And even there I'm not interested in the guy.

I pretty much agree with your assessment, though I think he'll still produce for the life of a 4-5 year contract.

 

His worth, like you say, is closer to 4/32 in a fair market, but this offseason has a shortage of talent and many teams in need of a leadoff hitter, so that drives the price up.

 

He's not the best fit for the Cubs, and I doubt the team makes a pitch for him, but wherever he signs, I think he'll provide impact.

 

As far as rating him against the league (tiers or whatever), it depends on the angle you take. If you pit him against all other CF the way all-star selection would, it provides somewhat skewed results, because of the very small number of power hitting CF (Griffey, Jones, Edmonds) that are going to command the attention for different skills.

 

But when you stack him up against other leadoff hitters, only Jeter and Ichiro are comparable (if you assume Brian Roberts and Grady Sizemore come back to earth from 2005 career years) projecting into next year.

 

Jeter is way overpaid, so there is no precedent there. Ichiro is also unique salary-wise. It is hard to find a leadoff hitter that establishes a worth precedent for salary.