McGwire's return

[K-Town]

I could be able to guess how Cards fans would if one of their pitchers reached 300 wins while with the team. It hasn't happened in many years in STL if ever, but I could imagine how they'd react, probably exaclty the same as Cubs fans.

 

Even though one of "their" guys have never experienced an accomplishment like that.

 

Odd how that works.

 

I agree. Cardinal fans would probably react the same as Cubs fans. Likewise, Cub fans would probably react the same way to McGwire as Cardinal fans do and did.

[K-Town]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

[Wild_Cubs04]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

 

So it's more than perception on Sosa?

[K-Town]

How did he have a far better career? Sosa has more career homers, RBI and a higher batting average. He has a lot more total bases, runs, hits, XBH and is a former multiple 30/30 man. His four year stretch from 1998 through 2001 dwarf any stretch in McGwire's career. His 2001 season is far better than any one of Mac's single seasons, and he did it with ZERO supporting cast, setting the record for production desparity over any teammate in what was one of the top 5 offensive seasons in modern history. Mac had superstars like Henderson and Canseco and productive players like Edmonds and Lankford. All Sosa ever really had was Mark Grace and an aging Sandberg for a year, yet he set the record for HR in a four year period.

 

Mac scored 100 runs or more 3 times, Sosa did 5 times, all in a row, and the average of those 5 is 7 runs higher than the average of mac's 3. Sosa averaged 88 runs per season in his career, Mac 72. Mac averaged 102 hits per season, Sosa 144. Over their careers, Sosa and Mac averaged the same number of HR per season, and Sosa has averaged 10 more RBI per.

 

Prior to the last couple years, Sosa had been an everyday player. McGwire was perenially injured, and from 1992-2001, Mac played 150 games only twice, less than 100 5 times, and less than 50 twice. Being healthy is a huge part of contribting to your team. Sammy averaged 144 games in his career to Mac's 117. HR/AB ratio doesn't mean much when you don't give your team AB's.

 

All of these stats include Sosa's this year, BTW.

 

Basically the only thing Mac did better over his career was walk and be a totally one dimensional player. Early in his career Sosa was a power and speed threat and was an outstandin fielder with a cannon arm. In his prime, Sosa sprayed balls all over the park with huge power, and ran the bases very well with great speed and commonly took extra bases. Mac has always been a HR/BB/OUT player.

 

Mac hit long homers and put on good power displays, but as a total asset to his team over the course of his career, particularly in their primes, you simply can't make a logical argument for Mac over Sosa.

 

So Mac broke record. If anything, the probability that it was broken while cheating should make a fan feel betrayed and bitter, if anything. Sosa was in fact a better player, whose career accomplishments (in light of Mac's record being broken shortly after he set it) are no less significant than McGwire's. And I definately feel seriously conflicted about Sosa, enough so not to unabashadly cheer my second favorite all-time player.

 

IMO, if an Cards fan isn't conflicted also, they're not being remotely objective, fan loyalty taken into account.

 

You went to alot of trouble for nothing, in my opinion. The OPS+ numbers are so unbalanced in favor of McGwire that we don't really need to look at much else. McGwire was a gold-glove first baseman, so it's silly to say that he was "one dimensional".

 

I don't take McGwire & baseball seriously enough to be "seriously conflicted" by any of it. I enjoyed the run that McGwire had, and he seems like a good guy. That's pretty much the way I look at it.

[K-Town]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

 

So it's more than perception on Sosa?

 

 

It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field.

[Wild_Cubs04]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

 

So it's more than perception on Sosa?

 

 

It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field.

 

That's not steroids, so there's a perception that Big Mac corked his bat?

[K-Town]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

 

So it's more than perception on Sosa?

 

 

It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field.

 

That's not steroids, so there's a perception that Big Mac corked his bat?

 

I didn't say anything about steroids. We're talking about "cheating". Sosa got caught cheating, and there's a perception that Mac got caught cheating.

[Wild_Cubs04]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

 

So it's more than perception on Sosa?

 

 

It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field.

 

That's not steroids, so there's a perception that Big Mac corked his bat?

 

I didn't say anything about steroids. We're talking about "cheating". Sosa got caught cheating, and there's a perception that Mac got caught cheating.

 

I don't think there is a perception that Mac got caught cheating....there may however be a perception that he is guilty of cheating because of the sham he pulled at the Hearings and his nice follow through being the "Juice Spokesperson".

[ManEatingTarp]

Can we just let this thread die?

 

You guys are killing my playoff high.

[gus_dog]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

 

So, just because others do it, is it OK? I mean, you keep bring it up - 'others'. Who cares about 'others'. We're not talking about 'others', we're talking about McGwire.

 

It's just like that weak-ass argument when McGwire was on Andro - it's legal.

 

Newsflash - Just because something is 'legal' doesn't make it the right thing to do.

 

McGwire was a cheater. Proof? No. But it is very difficult to see it any other way given the preponderance of circumstantial evidence, coupled with the weak testimony given to Congress. Whether or not Sosa, Bonds, Canseco or 50% of the league were on 'roids doesn't make it any more acceptable or tolerable for McGwire.

[Wild_Cubs04]

Can we just let this thread die?

 

You guys are killing my playoff high.

 

My apologies METarp, done here.

[K-Town]

They were both shams.

I hate them both for what they did.

Play the game fair, or don't play at all.

 

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did).

 

 

Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

 

So, just because others do it, is it OK? I mean, you keep bring it up - 'others'. Who cares about 'others'. We're not talking about 'others', we're talking about McGwire.

 

It's just like that weak-ass argument when McGwire was on Andro - it's legal.

 

Newsflash - Just because something is 'legal' doesn't make it the right thing to do.

 

McGwire was a cheater. Proof? No. But it is very difficult to see it any other way given the preponderance of circumstantial evidence, coupled with the weak testimony given to Congress. Whether or not Sosa, Bonds, Canseco or 50% of the league were on 'roids doesn't make it any more acceptable or tolerable for McGwire.

 

 

To me, it's not "intolerable". Although McGwire has been compared to murderers and rapists in this very thread, the truth is that he didn't kill anybody, isn't a terrorist, isn't responsible for hurricane Katrina. What you perceive him of being guilty of his adding mass to his body through an unsafe method (and he has admitted to Congress that it's bad, and kids shouldn't do it). IF he's guilty of that, then I certainly don't condone it, but it's also not "intolerable". Heck, I've forgiven people for things WAY worse than that. Using unsafe methods to add mass to his body doesn't change the fact that he seems like a heck of a guy, who has done countless charitable things, and always had good intentions of bringing enjoyable moments to the city of St. Louis. He's not a perfect human being. Not even close. But who is? I don't have much time time for hating and judging, and whatever energy I reserve for those emotions is going to be directed toward issues far more important than baseball.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

To me, it's not "intolerable". Although McGwire has been compared to murderers and rapists in this very thread, the truth is that he didn't kill anybody, isn't a terrorist, isn't responsible for hurricane Katrina. What you perceive him of being guilty of his adding mass to his body through an unsafe method (and he has admitted to Congress that it's bad, and kids shouldn't do it). IF he's guilty of that, then I certainly don't condone it, but it's also not "intolerable". Heck, I've forgiven people for things WAY worse than that. Using unsafe methods to add mass to his body doesn't change the fact that he seems like a heck of a guy, who has done countless charitable things, and always had good intentions of bringing enjoyable moments to the city of St. Louis. He's not a perfect human being. Not even close. But who is? I don't have much time time for hating and judging, and whatever energy I reserve for those emotions is going to be directed toward issues far more important than baseball.

 

Can I assume, then, by your statements that if you attended Cubs-Cardinal games in previous years that you made no judgements toward Sosa as well, and limited your heckling or opinions of him to the fact he was a Cub and no different than you would have heckled or expressed opinion of any Cub superstar player?

 

I conclude this sense you say you don't have time to "judge" on issues as trivial as baseball.

[K-Town]

To me, it's not "intolerable". Although McGwire has been compared to murderers and rapists in this very thread, the truth is that he didn't kill anybody, isn't a terrorist, isn't responsible for hurricane Katrina. What you perceive him of being guilty of his adding mass to his body through an unsafe method (and he has admitted to Congress that it's bad, and kids shouldn't do it). IF he's guilty of that, then I certainly don't condone it, but it's also not "intolerable". Heck, I've forgiven people for things WAY worse than that. Using unsafe methods to add mass to his body doesn't change the fact that he seems like a heck of a guy, who has done countless charitable things, and always had good intentions of bringing enjoyable moments to the city of St. Louis. He's not a perfect human being. Not even close. But who is? I don't have much time time for hating and judging, and whatever energy I reserve for those emotions is going to be directed toward issues far more important than baseball.

 

Can I assume, then, by your statements that if you attended Cubs-Cardinal games in previous years that you made no judgements toward Sosa as well, and limited your heckling or opinions of him to the fact he was a Cub and no different than you would have heckled or expressed opinion of any Cub superstar player?

 

I conclude this sense you say you don't have time to "judge" on issues as trivial as baseball.

 

I've never heckled Sosa. I playfully dislike the Cubs simply because the rivalry is fun. I'm not a fan of Sosa, but certainly wouldn't describe him as "intolerable". I'm indifferent about most Cubs players. I really like Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Corey Patterson, Ryan Dempster. They seem to have a cool attitude. But I don't spend much negative energy on the Cubs, so I'm certainly not going to spend much negativity on former Cardinals.

[Wild_Cubs04]

To me, it's not "intolerable". Although McGwire has been compared to murderers and rapists in this very thread, the truth is that he didn't kill anybody, isn't a terrorist, isn't responsible for hurricane Katrina. What you perceive him of being guilty of his adding mass to his body through an unsafe method (and he has admitted to Congress that it's bad, and kids shouldn't do it). IF he's guilty of that, then I certainly don't condone it, but it's also not "intolerable". Heck, I've forgiven people for things WAY worse than that. Using unsafe methods to add mass to his body doesn't change the fact that he seems like a heck of a guy, who has done countless charitable things, and always had good intentions of bringing enjoyable moments to the city of St. Louis. He's not a perfect human being. Not even close. But who is? I don't have much time time for hating and judging, and whatever energy I reserve for those emotions is going to be directed toward issues far more important than baseball.

 

Can I assume, then, by your statements that if you attended Cubs-Cardinal games in previous years that you made no judgements toward Sosa as well, and limited your heckling or opinions of him to the fact he was a Cub and no different than you would have heckled or expressed opinion of any Cub superstar player?

 

I conclude this sense you say you don't have time to "judge" on issues as trivial as baseball.

 

I've never heckled Sosa. I playfully dislike the Cubs simply because the rivalry is fun. I'm indifferent about most Cubs players. I really like Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Corey Patterson, Ryan Dempster. They seem to have a cool attitude. But I don't spend much negative energy on the Cubs, so I'm certainly not going to spend much negativity on former Cardinals.

 

See!!!! He's a CPatt fan....now it all comes out :wink:

[K-Town]

See!!!! He's a CPatt fan....now it all comes out :wink:

 

Guilty.

 

I'm not even sure why, actually. When he first came into the league, I thought he was going to be an "electric" player. It hasn't panned out that way. I've heard him interviewed a few times, and he seems to have a really good, positive attitude. It's a shame that he's not a very good ball player.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

I've never heckled Sosa. I playfully dislike the Cubs simply because the rivalry is fun. I'm indifferent about most Cubs players. I really like Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Corey Patterson, Ryan Dempster. They seem to have a cool attitude. But I don't spend much negative energy on the Cubs, so I'm certainly not going to spend much negativity on former Cardinals.

 

Very good then.

 

Then, personally I don't have a problem with your stance on McGwire. My problem comes when people allow fan bias to be something that goes beyond baseball. I'm not the biggest of hecklers, but I will do my share.

 

On the other hand, I'm quite open about why I do it and that my cheering of or dislike of other players usually is tied to my fan bias.

 

I'd never say I hate McGwire for steroids unless I'm willing to make the same statement against Sosa or others.

 

But to show the reverse of my point: I was in St. Louis two summers ago and not during the Cubs-Cardinals series. I went to a Marlins-Cardinals game and during the game I had a conversation with a guy who learned I was a Cub fan. He seemed friendly enough and we talked for a good portion of the game. He told me that he "hated" Sosa and loved to heckle him when the Cards played the Cubs, but not because he was a Cub, but because you just knew he did steroids...yada yada yada. After he finished his rant on the game in general and Sosa's sins in particular, I responded with then you must feel the same way about McGwire. At first I got a blank stare...then a changing of the subject...and then later about how McGwire was "different" from Sosa. That is the epitome of fan bias. I'd have no problem if he said I "hate" Sosa because he's a Cub, but to tie the other to it when looking the other way about one of your own, is ignorant fan bias in a nutshell. Does it exist on all sides of the fence? Yes.

[K-Town]

 

I've never heckled Sosa. I playfully dislike the Cubs simply because the rivalry is fun. I'm indifferent about most Cubs players. I really like Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Corey Patterson, Ryan Dempster. They seem to have a cool attitude. But I don't spend much negative energy on the Cubs, so I'm certainly not going to spend much negativity on former Cardinals.

 

Very good then.

 

Then, personally I don't have a problem with your stance on McGwire. My problem comes when people allow fan bias to be something that goes beyond baseball. I'm not the biggest of hecklers, but I will do my share.

 

On the other hand, I'm quite open about why I do it and that my cheering of or dislike of other players usually is tied to my fan bias.

 

I'd never say I hate McGwire for steroids unless I'm willing to make the same statement against Sosa or others.

 

But to show the reverse of my point: I was in St. Louis two summers ago and not during the Cubs-Cardinals series. I went to a Marlins-Cardinals game and during the game I had a conversation with a guy who learned I was a Cub fan. He seemed friendly enough and we talked for a good portion of the game. He told me that he "hated" Sosa and loved to heckle him when the Cards played the Cubs, but not because he was a Cub, but because you just knew he did steroids...yada yada yada. After he finished his rant on the game in general and Sosa's sins in particular, I responded with then you must feel the same way about McGwire. At first I got a blank stare...then a changing of the subject...and then later about how McGwire was "different" from Sosa. That is the epitome of fan bias. I'd have no problem if he said I "hate" Sosa because he's a Cub, but to tie the other to it when looking the other way about one of your own, is ignorant fan bias in a nutshell. Does it exist on all sides of the fence? Yes.

 

Good post.

 

Honestly, any dislike that I have for ANY Cubs is probably directly related to the fact that they're Cubs, as you explained. Sosa's "cheating" hardly ever crossed my mind. I had some fun with the whole "cork" thing, but who didn't? I don't think about the "cheating" aspect of that nearly as much as I think about the "stupid" aspect of him doing it.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I'd have no problem if he said I "hate" Sosa because he's a Cub, but to tie the other to it when looking the other way about one of your own, is ignorant fan bias in a nutshell. Does it exist on all sides of the fence? Yes.

 

 

I hate Sammy because of that stupid soda commercial where he’s at that taco stand and that Sox fan gives him that hot taco. All Sammy does is laugh, you know in real life he (unlike McGwire) would have tore that kid apart in a roid rage fit. Makes me sick just thinking about it.

 

:wink:

[Wild_Cubs04]

 

I've never heckled Sosa. I playfully dislike the Cubs simply because the rivalry is fun. I'm indifferent about most Cubs players. I really like Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Corey Patterson, Ryan Dempster. They seem to have a cool attitude. But I don't spend much negative energy on the Cubs, so I'm certainly not going to spend much negativity on former Cardinals.

 

Very good then.

 

Then, personally I don't have a problem with your stance on McGwire. My problem comes when people allow fan bias to be something that goes beyond baseball. I'm not the biggest of hecklers, but I will do my share.

 

On the other hand, I'm quite open about why I do it and that my cheering of or dislike of other players usually is tied to my fan bias.

 

I'd never say I hate McGwire for steroids unless I'm willing to make the same statement against Sosa or others.

 

But to show the reverse of my point: I was in St. Louis two summers ago and not during the Cubs-Cardinals series. I went to a Marlins-Cardinals game and during the game I had a conversation with a guy who learned I was a Cub fan. He seemed friendly enough and we talked for a good portion of the game. He told me that he "hated" Sosa and loved to heckle him when the Cards played the Cubs, but not because he was a Cub, but because you just knew he did steroids...yada yada yada. After he finished his rant on the game in general and Sosa's sins in particular, I responded with then you must feel the same way about McGwire. At first I got a blank stare...then a changing of the subject...and then later about how McGwire was "different" from Sosa. That is the epitome of fan bias. I'd have no problem if he said I "hate" Sosa because he's a Cub, but to tie the other to it when looking the other way about one of your own, is ignorant fan bias in a nutshell. Does it exist on all sides of the fence? Yes.

 

Good post.

 

Honestly, any dislike that I have for ANY Cubs is probably directly related to the fact that they're Cubs, as you explained. Sosa's "cheating" hardly ever crossed my mind. I had some fun with the whole "cork" thing, but who didn't? I don't think about the "cheating" aspect of that nearly as much as I think about the "stupid" aspect of him doing it.

 

Those are the 2 best posts in this thread.

[Soul]

Big Mac's cheating with steroids isn't a "perception," it's a stone cold fact.

 

So is Sosa's.

 

Alot of these guys did it. We all need to come to terms with that.

 

These ballplayers. They aren't heroes. They're aggressive, career-minded individuals just like alot of us are. And some of them went too far to improve their position in their chosen career-----again, just like some "normal" people do.

 

I'll even go out on a limb and say it's highly likely there is a new steroid out there that is undetectable and is being used by ballplayers right now. It won't end because Congress holds a few hearings and Bud Selig holds a few press conferences. 40+ home runs makes a person incredibly rich. Some guys are going to cheat to get there, and others are going to cheat to stay there. Big Mac and Sosa both cheated.

 

I don't mind St. Louis fans standing up and cheering for Big Mac. And I don't want Big Mac (or Sosa for that matter) crucified or anything like that. I just want everyone to understand that the numbers aren't totally what they appear to be.

[wolf stansson]

Big Mac's cheating with steroids isn't a "perception," it's a stone cold fact.

So you have those steroid test results from when Mac played and when Sammy was hitting 50+ out sitting next to you when you posted that? Oh wait...they didn't test then, so it's not a STONE COLD FACT is it?

 

I'm not knocking you in any way, because I guarantee they both took roids, I'm just saying it's not a stone cold fact.

[K-Town]

Big Mac's cheating with steroids isn't a "perception," it's a stone cold fact.

So you have those steroid test results from when Mac played and when Sammy was hitting 50+ out sitting next to you when you posted that? Oh wait...they didn't test then, so it's not a STONE COLD FACT is it?

 

I'm not knocking you in any way, because I guarantee they both took roids, I'm just saying it's not a stone cold fact.

 

I agree with you, although it is a fact that Sosa cheated.

[K-Town]

Big Mac's cheating with steroids isn't a "perception," it's a stone cold fact.

 

So is Sosa's.

 

Alot of these guys did it. We all need to come to terms with that.

 

These ballplayers. They aren't heroes. They're aggressive, career-minded individuals just like alot of us are. And some of them went too far to improve their position in their chosen career-----again, just like some "normal" people do.

 

I'll even go out on a limb and say it's highly likely there is a new steroid out there that is undetectable and is being used by ballplayers right now. It won't end because Congress holds a few hearings and Bud Selig holds a few press conferences. 40+ home runs makes a person incredibly rich. Some guys are going to cheat to get there, and others are going to cheat to stay there. Big Mac and Sosa both cheated.

 

I don't mind St. Louis fans standing up and cheering for Big Mac. And I don't want Big Mac (or Sosa for that matter) crucified or anything like that. I just want everyone to understand that the numbers aren't totally what they appear to be.

 

They're not heroes because they hit alot of balls over a fence. In some ways, many of them (including McGwire) are heroes because of what they do off of the field, however.