The End of Tonight's Game

[Sabermetrician]

I was just watching Baseball Tonight and saw it actually happen for the first time, and Harold Reynolds said something that I don't think is right at all.

 

"Weren't the bases loaded? All you've got to do is step on the plate."

 

That can't be right. The ball wasn't hit into play, so he would have to be tagged out at home. Correct?

[UMFan83]

JonM and I were talking about that via IM.

 

Reynolds was saying since it was a passed ball, the hitter has to either be tagged or thrown out at first. The logic is that since he has to try to advance to first, the runners have to be moving and there is a force out available at all bases. So if that was true, Barrett could have stepped on home and thrown to third for a DP.

 

However, the rule is that you cant advance to first on a K if there is a runner on first. So basically the play was dead when Burrell K'd and runners could advance at their own risk.

[hawkeyecub]

That's right. If there were 2 outs, that would have been the case.

 

Since there was a man at 1st with only 1 out, Burrell was out after the K. There is no force play anywhere and runners can advance at their own risk.

[Sabermetrician]

JonM and I were talking about that via IM.

 

Reynolds was saying since it was a passed ball, the hitter has to either be tagged or thrown out at first. The logic is that since he has to try to advance to first, the runners have to be moving and there is a force out available at all bases. So if that was true, Barrett could have stepped on home and thrown to third for a DP.

 

However, the rule is that you cant advance to first on a K if there is a runner on first. So basically the play was dead when Burrell K'd and runners could advance at their own risk.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Since first base was occupied and there wasn't two outs at the time of the strike out, Burrell, by rule, couldn't attempt to take 1st on the passed ball.

[badger1679666666]

Basically Barrett didn't have to throw the ball anywhere, but could have gotten a double play if he would have ran him down.

 

He had a brain fart, a really unexcusable one. If he just held it and let Rollins back to third, we still would have been in the game.

[Hacking Out Machine]

JonM and I were talking about that via IM.

 

Reynolds was saying since it was a passed ball, the hitter has to either be tagged or thrown out at first. The logic is that since he has to try to advance to first, the runners have to be moving and there is a force out available at all bases. So if that was true, Barrett could have stepped on home and thrown to third for a DP.

 

However, the rule is that you cant advance to first on a K if there is a runner on first. So basically the play was dead when Burrell K'd and runners could advance at their own risk.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Since first base was occupied and there wasn't two outs at the time of the strike out, Burrell, by rule,

couldn't attempt to take 1st on the passed ball.

 

By Reynolds's logic, any time the bases are loaded with less than one out and a hitter strikes out swinging, all the catcher needs to do is drop the ball and step on home for a double play. Obviously this can't happen. The fact that a former major leaguer and media member would so egregiously not know the rules is an absolute disgrace.

 

By the way, that moron Kruk also suggested there was a force at third. What a joke. They both should resign. Seriously. The only "analysts" that should be allowed within a mile of that set are Olney, Gammons, Stark and Kurkijan. All of the former players/managers/GMs are complete imbeciles.

[CubfaninCA]

This just shows the importance of good defense. The Cubs are subpar, if that. People want to obsess over the [expletive] walk ad naseum, and the bullpen. This team's defense and starting pitcher has not been very good either.

[genghiskhan]

Some putz on ESPNews just did the same thing, saying Barrett threw to third "instead of tagging home plate for the final out". Lord.

[Tracer Bullet]

This just shows the importance of good defense. The Cubs are subpar, if that. People want to obsess over the [expletive] walk ad naseum, and the bullpen. This team's defense and starting pitcher has not been very good either.

 

One bad play at the end of a game doesn't show the importance of good defense any more so than the fact that we've only scored 5 runs in 2 games shows that the team's offense hasn't been very good either.

[wastra]

It was not about defense last night. It was about not doing the fundamental things correctly. Covering first and knowing how to conudct a run-down are not defensive problems, they're mental errors on basic, fundamental plays.

 

A defensive problem on that play would have been Barrett air-mailing the throw into left, or Ramirez catching it and throwing it over the plate. the problem was errors, it was someone making a stupid mental mistake.

 

Barrett was no rookie, and he's been in tight situations before. Remlinger is no different. the mental errors the Cubs made last night were inexcusable.

 

That's why, imo, this team is not a playoff team. We don't have that winners' perfectionist mentality. We don't bring out our best when our backs are to the wall. We don't fail because we're not good enough, we fail because we're not as focused as we need to be. We look like, half the time, we don't care on a particular night. Half our players (and our manager) have that "it's a long season" look in their eyes from the first game of the year forward.

[katway]

A game like last night following Ryno's speech about respect for the game and fundamentals is embarassing. Our collective group of malcontents simply don't get it. A lazy effort to the fundamentals of the game is disrespectful to the game and the fans that show up to watch the game. They just don't get it. Yet, the malcontents will continue to play for this team without repercusions. It's like they aren't familiar with the surface of the planet and no one is willing to show them where it is. Few players on the current Cubs roster are even fit to hold Sanberg's jock strap, yet alone represent this franchise in the post season. It's clear to me that they don't have enough respect for the game to hustle for everything they get.

 

The organization needs to say enough is enough and focus more on developing baseball players like Adam Greenberg (who has demonstrated his ability to do what is needed to win short of hitting home runs) and let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

A lack of talent is easy to swallow, a lack of effort and respect for the game makes me want to hurl.

 

End of rant.

[abuck1220]

let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

kudos to you for somehow finding a way to bash patterson when discussing a game that he wasn't in the state for.

 

i've been trying to think of a way to do that because i too blame him for last night's loss. the negative energy he left when he was sent down to AAA is still having an ill effect on the cubs. damn him!

[katway]

let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

kudos to you for somehow finding a way to bash patterson when discussing a game that he wasn't in the state for.

 

i've been trying to think of a way to do that because i too blame him for last night's loss. the negative energy he left when he was sent down to AAA is still having an ill effect on the cubs. damn him!

 

I'm not just ranting about last nights loss. I'm talking about an organizational philosophy. I only mention Corey as the poster boy of the fact that potential does not make someone a good baseball player and this team needs to focus on baseball players that know how to play the game.

[abuck1220]

let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

kudos to you for somehow finding a way to bash patterson when discussing a game that he wasn't in the state for.

 

i've been trying to think of a way to do that because i too blame him for last night's loss. the negative energy he left when he was sent down to AAA is still having an ill effect on the cubs. damn him!

 

I'm not just ranting about last nights loss. I'm talking about an organizational philosophy. I only mention Corey as the poster boy of the fact that potential does not make someone a good baseball player and this team needs to focus on baseball players that know how to play the game.

 

you have no idea about how well corey focuses on the game. he's never made a mental mistake comparable to barrett's late inning buffonery. or failing to cover first base after two other guys had failed to do it just a couple innings before.

 

to say corey is the poster boy for lack of fundamentals when he didn't even participate in last night's fundamental disaster is just you taking every oppurtunity to bash someone who you obviously don't like. it would be like me bringing up neifi's sub-.300 obp while discussing last night's west tenn game.

[sonofsamiam]

let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

kudos to you for somehow finding a way to bash patterson when discussing a game that he wasn't in the state for.

 

i've been trying to think of a way to do that because i too blame him for last night's loss. the negative energy he left when he was sent down to AAA is still having an ill effect on the cubs. damn him!

 

I'm not just ranting about last nights loss. I'm talking about an organizational philosophy. I only mention Corey as the poster boy of the fact that potential does not make someone a good baseball player and this team needs to focus on baseball players that know how to play the game.

 

I buy that, but can you give me an example of a Cub who is a malcontent, since that's what you called them? I see some guys on that team that aren't fundamentally sound, aren't well-rounded players, or are even somewhat baseball-dumb, but can't really think of any malcontents.

[katway]

let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

kudos to you for somehow finding a way to bash patterson when discussing a game that he wasn't in the state for.

 

i've been trying to think of a way to do that because i too blame him for last night's loss. the negative energy he left when he was sent down to AAA is still having an ill effect on the cubs. damn him!

 

I'm not just ranting about last nights loss. I'm talking about an organizational philosophy. I only mention Corey as the poster boy of the fact that potential does not make someone a good baseball player and this team needs to focus on baseball players that know how to play the game.

 

you have no idea about how well corey focuses on the game. he's never made a mental mistake comparable to barrett's late inning buffonery. or failing to cover first base after two other guys had failed to do it just a couple innings before.

 

to say corey is the poster boy for lack of fundamentals when he didn't even participate in last night's fundamental disaster is just you taking every oppurtunity to bash someone who you obviously don't like. it would be like me bringing up neifi's sub-.300 obp while discussing last night's west tenn game.

 

 

Hello. Someone's not listening. I'm refering to the organization as a whole at that point and not just last night's game. :roll:

 

Why can't I refer to Corey when I'm refering to the organization putting to much emphasis and value on potential versus actual baseball players. The organization views Greenberg as a backup and Corey as a starter because of Corey's potential when the fact is that Greenberg appears to be a more fundamentally sound baseball player.

 

I'm not blaming him for last nights lost, never said that.

[rocket]

A game like last night following Ryno's speech about respect for the game and fundamentals is embarassing. Our collective group of malcontents simply don't get it. A lazy effort to the fundamentals of the game is disrespectful to the game and the fans that show up to watch the game. They just don't get it. Yet, the malcontents will continue to play for this team without repercusions. It's like they aren't familiar with the surface of the planet and no one is willing to show them where it is. Few players on the current Cubs roster are even fit to hold Sanberg's jock strap, yet alone represent this franchise in the post season. It's clear to me that they don't have enough respect for the game to hustle for everything they get.

 

The organization needs to say enough is enough and focus more on developing baseball players like Adam Greenberg (who has demonstrated his ability to do what is needed to win short of hitting home runs) and let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

A lack of talent is easy to swallow, a lack of effort and respect for the game makes me want to hurl.

 

End of rant.

 

yeah look how many championships and winning teams sandberg and his buddies' respect for the game brought.

 

yeah, barrett made that mistake because he doesn't respect baseball or its fans. are you serious? believe it or not, ryno's made a dumb mental error too, as with every mlb player in history.

[wastra]

A game like last night following Ryno's speech about respect for the game and fundamentals is embarassing. Our collective group of malcontents simply don't get it. A lazy effort to the fundamentals of the game is disrespectful to the game and the fans that show up to watch the game. They just don't get it. Yet, the malcontents will continue to play for this team without repercusions. It's like they aren't familiar with the surface of the planet and no one is willing to show them where it is. Few players on the current Cubs roster are even fit to hold Sanberg's jock strap, yet alone represent this franchise in the post season. It's clear to me that they don't have enough respect for the game to hustle for everything they get.

 

The organization needs to say enough is enough and focus more on developing baseball players like Adam Greenberg (who has demonstrated his ability to do what is needed to win short of hitting home runs) and let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

A lack of talent is easy to swallow, a lack of effort and respect for the game makes me want to hurl.

 

End of rant.

 

 

I haven't seen a whole lot of "malcontents" on this team at all. I do see a team of people who aren't good at executing fundamentals.

 

Personally, I think this hearkens back to the Cubs' organizational philosophy of drafting and signing "toolsy" players rather than players who "accomplished" a whole lot.

 

But "malcontent?" The only two people I can think of who've even mildly sounded discontented all year were Hairston and Walker- and their statements were so mild, it's hard to imagine them as malcontents.

 

 

I think there are a couple problems with the team:

 

1. They're poorly assembled. Too many guys who have bad approaches bu can hit the ball really hard, and not enough quality guys with control in the bullpen. Again, lots of 'tools' across the board, but not a lot of refinement anywhere. Lots of streakiness, lots of one-dimensional guys, too.

 

2. They don't seem to have the focuse of a pennant-winning team. Maybe it's the players' themselves beign too laid back. If anything, they seem TOO content to me. Maybe it's the manager who is seemingly willing to "throw away" games all year so as not to let one of his regulars get winded by playing 3 games in a row, or his penchant of "forgiving" everything to the press. That doesn't exactly help a team focus on winning each and every game, does it?

 

3. I don't know if it's scouting, management, players, or what, but we NEVER seem to have the right plate approach against a pitcher with a solid changeup that he throws for strikes. NEVER. It seems like every time we face one, we're so far out in front of his off-speed stuff that it's just impossible to believe that we go up to the plate expecting that changeup. We sseem to be sitting dead-red on fastballs. meanwhile, the pitcher throws 2 off speed pitches for strikes (or we're way out in front of them and foul them off) and we're down 0-2 in the count.

[katway]

let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

kudos to you for somehow finding a way to bash patterson when discussing a game that he wasn't in the state for.

 

i've been trying to think of a way to do that because i too blame him for last night's loss. the negative energy he left when he was sent down to AAA is still having an ill effect on the cubs. damn him!

 

I'm not just ranting about last nights loss. I'm talking about an organizational philosophy. I only mention Corey as the poster boy of the fact that potential does not make someone a good baseball player and this team needs to focus on baseball players that know how to play the game.

 

I buy that, but can you give me an example of a Cub who is a malcontent, since that's what you called them? I see some guys on that team that aren't fundamentally sound, aren't well-rounded players, or are even somewhat baseball-dumb, but can't really think of any malcontents.

 

Malcontent meaning one who rebels against an established system. Some of the players clearly don't understand the very fundamentals of the game such as moving runners over, taking pitches, sacrafice flies, etc. They rebel against the established system of the game of baseball and winning by thinking they will do it their own way and ignore the advice of coaches and the way the game is played.

[Bergy92]

couldn't you just see Maddux in the dugout after the game venting...like... "do these guys no nothing of fundamentals. I have made a career of doing the right thing in the right situation and look what it has brought me. Do they just not get it?"

 

Also, I was thinking after last night - not sure if it deserves another thread or not, but we find the craziest ways to lose. Take for example...

 

1. Last night

2. Suicide squeeze when everyone knew it was coming...

3. Line drive back to the pitcher and a throw off the helmet of a runner on first base trying to get a double play

 

Add your own...we have been finding new, unconventional ways to lose, which is a reason why I do not think I 'BELIEVE' anymore. I just can't - the braclet has been hung up (for now at least)

[wastra]

let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

kudos to you for somehow finding a way to bash patterson when discussing a game that he wasn't in the state for.

 

i've been trying to think of a way to do that because i too blame him for last night's loss. the negative energy he left when he was sent down to AAA is still having an ill effect on the cubs. damn him!

 

I'm not just ranting about last nights loss. I'm talking about an organizational philosophy. I only mention Corey as the poster boy of the fact that potential does not make someone a good baseball player and this team needs to focus on baseball players that know how to play the game.

 

I buy that, but can you give me an example of a Cub who is a malcontent, since that's what you called them? I see some guys on that team that aren't fundamentally sound, aren't well-rounded players, or are even somewhat baseball-dumb, but can't really think of any malcontents.

 

Malcontent meaning one who rebels against an established system. Some of the players clearly don't understand the very fundamentals of the game such as moving runners over, taking pitches, sacrafice flies, etc. They rebel against the established system of the game of baseball and winning by thinking they will do it their own way.

 

That's not really what a malcontent is. A malcontent is someone who tries to disrupt the status quo due to discontent; a trouble maker.

 

Your definition, and applying that to the Cubs is a huge stretch of linguistic license :wink:

[katway]

A game like last night following Ryno's speech about respect for the game and fundamentals is embarassing. Our collective group of malcontents simply don't get it. A lazy effort to the fundamentals of the game is disrespectful to the game and the fans that show up to watch the game. They just don't get it. Yet, the malcontents will continue to play for this team without repercusions. It's like they aren't familiar with the surface of the planet and no one is willing to show them where it is. Few players on the current Cubs roster are even fit to hold Sanberg's jock strap, yet alone represent this franchise in the post season. It's clear to me that they don't have enough respect for the game to hustle for everything they get.

 

The organization needs to say enough is enough and focus more on developing baseball players like Adam Greenberg (who has demonstrated his ability to do what is needed to win short of hitting home runs) and let go of the overhyped and game challenged players like Corey Patterson (who has done nothing more than prove he can swing the bat with authority whether or not it happens to make contact with the ball).

 

A lack of talent is easy to swallow, a lack of effort and respect for the game makes me want to hurl.

 

End of rant.

 

yeah look how many championships and winning teams sandberg and his buddies' respect for the game brought.

 

yeah, barrett made that mistake because he doesn't respect baseball or its fans. are you serious? believe it or not, ryno's made a dumb mental error too, as with every mlb player in history.

 

Did I ever say Barrett? It's a collective issue with this team all year. People don't hustle and just don't focus. Ryno may have made a mental error, but always hustled.

 

Yes. Ryno didn't win and I'm not saying those teams were great. But, I do wish everyone had his attitude to focus on the fundamentals and little things that win games, like covering first base, hitting the sac fly, etc.

 

Although I was not making any attempt to compare Ryno's team to the current team. (Why do people keep reading more into this than was written?) The teams Ryno was on often failed due to lack of talent. The current team has had a lot of failure due to lack of execution and fundamentals.

[TheDude]

By Reynolds's logic, any time the bases are loaded with less than one out and a hitter strikes out swinging, all the catcher needs to do is drop the ball and step on home for a double play. Obviously this can't happen. The fact that a former major leaguer and media member would so egregiously not know the rules is an absolute disgrace.

 

By the way, that moron Kruk also suggested there was a force at third. What a joke. They both should resign. Seriously. The only "analysts" that should be allowed within a mile of that set are Olney, Gammons, Stark and Kurkijan. All of the former players/managers/GMs are complete imbeciles.

Reynolds and Kruk made a mistake, thinking there were two outs with the first set of discussion they had. They quickly corrected the mistake, and then reviewed the scenario again as a one-out scenario, at which time they correctly explained what Barret's options were, and the mistake he made.

 

The first set of analysis was based on a false presumption, which was then corrected. It's no big deal.

[badgercub]

I think there are a couple problems with the team:

 

1. They're poorly assembled. Too many guys who have bad approaches bu can hit the ball really hard, and not enough quality guys with control in the bullpen. Again, lots of 'tools' across the board, but not a lot of refinement anywhere. Lots of streakiness, lots of one-dimensional guys, too.

 

2. They don't seem to have the focuse of a pennant-winning team. Maybe it's the players' themselves beign too laid back. If anything, they seem TOO content to me. Maybe it's the manager who is seemingly willing to "throw away" games all year so as not to let one of his regulars get winded by playing 3 games in a row, or his penchant of "forgiving" everything to the press. That doesn't exactly help a team focus on winning each and every game, does it?

 

3. I don't know if it's scouting, management, players, or what, but we NEVER seem to have the right plate approach against a pitcher with a solid changeup that he throws for strikes. NEVER. It seems like every time we face one, we're so far out in front of his off-speed stuff that it's just impossible to believe that we go up to the plate expecting that changeup. We sseem to be sitting dead-red on fastballs. meanwhile, the pitcher throws 2 off speed pitches for strikes (or we're way out in front of them and foul them off) and we're down 0-2 in the count.

 

AMEN! I was disgusted last night to not see pitchers (Williams and Remlinger) cover first base. Guys not know how to execute a rundown. Not be able to get runners in from third base with less than two outs. The Cubs are not playing good baseball, and not because they are bad, but because they have no focus. These are things that should be ingrained in them since they played little league or at least since high school ball. Just makes me sick.

[snoodmonger]

This statement is not based solely on last night's play: Sometimes I think Michael barret might not be the smartest baseball player out there. He does so many things that irk me, things that smart players don't do. Last night was just the latest example.

 

As for Remlinger, he should be DFA'd immediately. It's one thing to be completely incapable of getting anyone out. It's another thing to be completely incapable of getting anyone out AND have your head so far up your keister that you make the SAME mental error that's already cost your team earlier in the game.

 

If I had been Dusty, I would have pulled a Bobby Cox/Andruw Jones and pulled Rem from the game immediately for that. It's inexcusable to begin with. Factor in it had already happened in the game, and it's unforgiveable.