Cubs v. Cards

[indifferent]

Here's what I don't understand with regard to Cubs injuries last year. They didn't do poorly with Wood, Prior, etc. gone early in the year. And they didn't do much better when everyone was back healthy. Similarly, the Cards didn't really separate themselves from the pack until Aug. when the Cubs were back healthy.

[jjgman21]

Here's what I don't understand with regard to Cubs injuries last year. They didn't do poorly with Wood, Prior, etc. gone early in the year. And they didn't do much better when everyone was back healthy. Similarly, the Cards didn't really separate themselves from the pack until Aug. when the Cubs were back healthy.

 

maybe you don't understand because you don't have your facts straight.

 

the Cubs were expected to win around a hundred games last year. before Wood went down, the Cubs were 5 games over .500 on May 11. when Prior came back on June 4 the Cubs were 2 games over .500 after 52 games. when Wood came back, they were 6 games over .500 through 86 games, and 8 games back. how is that not doing poorly without Wood and Prior early in the year?

 

as for the end of the year, do you really need the accumulative effects of an over extended bullpen and a burned out starting lineup created due to injuries to starting players explained? and the team was never really completely healthy. by the time Prior had his second 7+ inning performance of the year on August 21 the Cards had a 15 game lead. two weeks later, Clement went down.

[vaball]

So how many wins do you think they'll have this coming season? In another thread, you predicted 97, which would be a worse season for the Cards than last year.

 

I think they will be a better team but won't win as many games. They were so healthy last year, a feat I don't expect to see repeated. I think Eckstein's defense will cost them a few games. Improvements by other teams in the division will probably also cost them a few games. I still say 97-100 wins though. I expect the Cubs to win about 95. The division race will be very close, but I think the Cards win by 2-4 games.

 

And TrueBlueCubFan, of course I'm biased, but no more than you or any other fan on the board is towards the Cubs or any fan is towards his/her team. I don't, however, think I'm misguided. If I had been posting on this board in ST last season I'm sure I would have been callled that and more when I said the Cards would go to the World Series, but I was right.

[jjgman21]

I agree re: Myers, but Cali, Reyes, and Flores did well at the end of the season along with Haren. Also, we'll have Lincoln back probably by May. Morris, recovering from surgery is also looking good so far this spring (including his first appearance in a game today).

 

 

I think this is an excellent illustration of the difference between Cub fans and Card fans.

 

Cub fans scream bloody murder that we are replacing an .850 OPS guy with a .915 OPS guy (albeit Coors aided) while Card fans are confident Kline's 1.79 ERA over 50 innings, Haren's 2.61 over 20 innings, and Calero's 2.78 over 45 innings will be easily replace by three journeyman minor leaguers who combined for 25 innings of mop up duty and a guy who, according to the post-dispatch, won't return until June or July.

 

both of us are unrealistic. the difference is, we are unrealistic due to our pessimism, you Card fans are unrealistic due to your optimism

[indifferent]

Actually the difference is we are talking about the 5th and 6th guys out of the pen instead of a starting right fielder. The guys I mentioned did do well last year, journeymen or not. If they don't work out, I would think the Cards could find numerous cheap arms or other "journeymen" to replace them. What stellar 5th and 6th BP guys do the Cubs have that instill such supreme confidence?

[jjgman21]

Actually the difference is we are talking about the 5th and 6th guys out of the pen instead of a starting right fielder. The guys I mentioned did do well last year, journeymen or not. If they don't work out, I would think the Cards could find numerous cheap arms or other "journeymen" to replace them. What stellar 5th and 6th BP guys do the Cubs have that instill such supreme confidence?

 

no, when shifting the argument like that, the difference is 115 innings of question marks instead of stellar relief work vs. probably no difference at all in OPS.

 

to answer the question when you shifted the argument to criticism of the Cubs (and put words into my mouth about supreme confidence of 5th and 6th guys out of the pen) instead of comparison of team's fans, Leicester, Wuertz, Wellemeyer, Ohman, Mitre/Rusch and a bevy of other prospects as opposed to career minor leaguers.

 

then again, Kline and Calero were hardly guys who filled the role of mop up duty like you imply by calling them 5th and 6th guys out of the pen. your lefty specialist is now Myers, who you admitted stinks. the mid inning stopper is replaced by a question mark, as opposed to the great jobs Calero and Haren did.

 

face it dude, the Cards pen was one of the team's keys. all the returning pitchers are coming off career years they are not likely to repeat (Izzy, King, Taverez, Eldred) and all the depth is gone.

 

you can go on not worrying about it if you want, but that only proves my other point about being blinded by optimism.

[indifferent]

I actually am in the same school of thought as Vance in that I think bullpens are fluid from year to year. This is also why I don't discount the Cubs bullpen as much as others. Some of this fluidity I attribute to the manager's situational use of the bullpen of which I think LaRussa does a great job. This is why IMO LaRussa gets some good mileage out of career mediocre relievers. So was it effective use of the bullpen or career years?

 

More red koolaid if you can stomach it.

 

And I'm not a dude.

[jjgman21]

I actually am in the same school of thought as Vance in that I think bullpens are fluid from year to year. This is also why I don't discount the Cubs bullpen as much as others. Some of this fluidity I attribute to the manager's situational use of the bullpen of which I think LaRussa does a great job. This is why IMO LaRussa gets some good mileage out of career mediocre relievers. So was it effective use of the bullpen or career years?

 

More red koolaid if you can stomach it.

 

And I'm not a dude.

 

ah, on to the next shift in the argument. so the 2003 Cards pen had nothing to do with talent and poor performance, LaRussa just had an off year playing that fiddle. its alot harder to situationally use your bullpen when only a couple of those guys can get batters out with regularity. what's he going to do this year in situations when he needs a guy who strands runners with regularity in the middle innings or in situations when he needs a guy who throws up a .453 OPS against lefties?

 

I'll admit that the Cards often get more mileage out of players who have no right being in the major leagues, but your cup runneth over with the crimson brew.

 

and I call alot of people dude, male or female, young or old.

[indifferent]

jj, I knew you were going there next. He uses the bullpen well when he has the chance to, you know 2003 was a complete mess with our starting rotation. I can't even remember how many starters started in 2003 without even getting into the Kile situation. Not to mention, Jocketty's brilliant acquisitions of Borbon and Yan to reinforce our bullpen at the deadline.

 

Just giving you a hard time about the dude comment, I use it too regardless of sex.

 

In all seriousness, do you think the bullpen will be our biggest weakness this year?

[jjgman21]

jj, I knew you were going there next. He uses the bullpen well when he has the chance to, you know 2003 was a complete mess with our starting rotation. I can't even remember how many starters started in 2003 without even getting into the Kile situation. Not to mention, Jocketty's brilliant acquisitions of Borbon and Yan to reinforce our bullpen at the deadline.

 

Just giving you a hard time about the dude comment, I use it too regardless of sex.

 

In all seriousness, do you think the bullpen will be our biggest weakness this year?

 

you knew I was going there next because you've seen my adeptness at sniffing out bs and you knew you were spouting more bs.

 

seems to me, all things being equal, a problem with starters doesn't effect the pen unless that problem is number of innings pitched. the answer to your querry is 9 starting pitchers for the Cards in 2003 (the Kile situation at that time was his losing the ability to feed worms. he died in 2002). the Card starters combined for 979 innings, whereas last years starters combined for 996 innings. in other words, starters in 2004 went on average one tenth of an inning per game less than 2003 starters. I don't think those extra 17 innings the starters saved the pen is what turned it around for them or put LaRussa at a loss for using his bullpen. what turned it around for them was talent and performance. the talent pool in 2005 has once again shrunk and the 2005 performance of those returning cannot rationally be expected to happen again. and without that depth, LaRussa's pen games becomes a weakness, not an advantage (and kills the fun of watching a ballgame irregardless)

 

strange how you poo-poo Jocketty's acquisition of Borbon (4 IP didn't make that big of difference in the outcome of the season, did it?) and Yan in this post, whereas a few posts ago you boasted confidence in the Cards being able to go get something cheap to get the job done. but you don't have to worry about that situation this year because you have Flores, Cali and Reyes. (incidentally, that was not the first or last time Jocketty made the wrong midseason acquisition. he does it year after year after year, usually getting more hitting when the Cards need more pitching).

 

I think the biggest problem for the Cards this year is overall depth. barring injury, that will be most evident, and hurt them the most, when it comes to the bullpen.

 

 

and especially after today, you can add Chad Fox to my list of 5th and 6th guys out of the pen that gives me extreme confidence, and come the time Lincoln comes off the DL, you can add Scott Williamson to the list.

[indifferent]

Jocketty made a bad call on those two in 2003, no doubt about it. Had he made better pick ups, the chain of events would have unfolded differently. The fact that Borbon and Yan didn't get many innings because they stunk (not leaving Fassero out of this conversation either) taxed the rest of the bullpen. If he had made the right decisions, the players still would have been cheap.

 

I apologize for the Kile mistake.

 

With the exception of possibly RJ, there was no pitching available at the trading deadline. So Walt did the next best thing in shoring up right field and getting rid of the platoon of Lankford/Cedeno. I have no beef regarding the Walker deal. The price was right and Walker definitely helped us down the stretch and in the playoffs.

 

It's a moot point now, because Walt correctly identified the correct weakness this year and picked up Mulder. Hendry on the other hand, did nothing to correct the Cubs biggest problem of a closer and subtracted much needed offense to get your pitchers some run support.

 

I don't fully understand the Burnitz bashing, but perhaps it stems from the belief by most that Sosa will have a better year than Burnitz. Comparing one year to gauge the two players seems disingenuous when Sosa had his worst year by far since 97 and Burnitz had his best year by far since 99. Such is the price for clubhouse harmony.

[jjgman21]

 

 

I don't fully understand the Burnitz bashing, but perhaps it stems from the belief by most that Sosa will have a better year than Burnitz. Comparing one year to gauge the two players seems disingenuous when Sosa had his worst year by far since 97 and Burnitz had his best year by far since 99. Such is the price for clubhouse harmony.

 

more level headed Cub fans see this team for what it is, deeper, more balanced, likely to improve in OBP, more speed and overall likely to score more runs even with less power. we also see a closer situation for what it is, no answers, but not really a pressing concern considering the options currently available and those that could come available in mid-season via trade.

 

Jocketty squeezed the weinie baloon. he saw a concern, but the only way he was able to address it was by weakening another part of his team. plus it remains to be seen just how much Mulder and Morris's repaired shoulder is going to solve the Cards weakness.

 

yes, there didn't appear to be a ton of pitchers available, but Benson, V. Zambrano and Brad Penny all changed teams. further, appearances can be deceiving. afterall, it didn't look like Walker himself was obtainable, but just look what happened. if there was a will there was a way.

 

nonetheless, Walker was a nice pickup. as was Rolen a couple years back. but the fact remains the Cards had plenty of offense both years and needed pitching, but pitching you did not get. if it happened in Chicago, the fans and radio hosts would've had his head on a stick.

[indifferent]

 

nonetheless, Walker was a nice pickup. as was Rolen a couple years back. but the fact remains the Cards had plenty of offense both years and needed pitching, but pitching you did not get. if it happened in Chicago, the fans and radio hosts would've had his head on a stick.

 

I don't see the problem in Jocketty's moves. Ace pitching is way more expensive and less reliable, more injury prone. The only teams that can afford to pay full market value for ace pitching throughout their rotation are the Yankees and Red Sox.

 

I also don't view Benson and Zambrano as better than most of our starters and certainly not aces.

 

The fault lies in not developing home grown top notch pitching, both at the draft and development level. The Cubs and perhaps Oakland are the only teams that are blessed with this situation. This is why the Cubs are and will be contenders every year. This is also why I would be calling for the head of Hendry or MacPhail for not surrounding that core with more offensive production for years. The Cubs have already conquered the tough part, strong homegrown pitching.

 

The Cubs and Cards have two different approaches to the core of their teams, mostly due to circumstances.

 

My biggest concern about the Cards is whether our middle infield defense will be able to support our staff of heavy groundball pitchers.

[beersoakedivy]

Worse case scenario I hope its the Cards and Cubs in the NLCS.

 

Man, a part of me would love to see the Cards and Cubs meet up in the NLCS, but I'm not so sure the other part of me could handle the tension.

 

It would be fun to watch, but I would be a nervous wreck. If they were to play in the NLCS and the CUBS were to lose I don't think I could handle it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'll be honest. I want to see the Cubs in the NLCS, but I want to see the Cards with a 100 loss team. (I know it won't happen, but that's what I want.)

[CubsLadyinSTL]

Possibly one of the funniest things I have heard yet was a co worker of mine telling me the Cubs will lose 100 games this year.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Possibly one of the funniest things I have heard yet was a co worker of mine telling me the Cubs will lose 100 games this year.

 

Is your co-worker on crack?!?!?

 

Nice to see you back around, Andi.

[CubsLadyinSTL]

That would be a good assumption but we had to take drug tests to come back to work.

 

He really doesnt have any good excuse for his uneducated pish posh.

 

 

GREAT TO BE BACK VANCE.

[dalgreen]

Possibly one of the funniest things I have heard yet was a co worker of mine telling me the Cubs will lose 100 games this year.

 

You must be talking about Al Hrabosky.

[CubsLadyinSTL]

Possibly one of the funniest things I have heard yet was a co worker of mine telling me the Cubs will lose 100 games this year.

 

You must be talking about Al Hrabosky.

 

 

 

Ha ha, the crack thing could come into play then.

[CubsLadyinSTL]

Possibly one of the funniest things I have heard yet was a co worker of mine telling me the Cubs will lose 100 games this year.

 

You must be talking about Al Hrabosky.

 

 

 

Ha ha, the crack thing could come into play then.

 

 

(sorry really bad joke, just not a big fan of him although his new bar is the Illini headquarters for "Arch Maddness")

[treebird]

HOORAY FOR THE RETURN OF ANDI

 

and wow you like mitch hedberg. fair play to the di.

[imb]

I got an oscillating fan. I like to turn it on, and ask it questions that a fan would say no to.

 

"do you keep my hair in place?"

 

"do you keep my doc-u-ments in order?"

 

sometimes i like to throw it a curveball

 

"do you make a nice spring time breeze? AHA! YOURE A LIAR FAN!"

[NCCubFan]

Possibly one of the funniest things I have heard yet was a co worker of mine telling me the Cubs will lose 100 games this year.

If you think that's bad, somebody on this board said the Cubs would win 50 to 60 games this year in a poll.

 

Of course, that could just be wishful thinking from one of our resident Cardinal fans. :D

[Rooster]

Possibly one of the funniest things I have heard yet was a co worker of mine telling me the Cubs will lose 100 games this year.

 

You must be talking about Al Hrabosky.

 

 

 

Ha ha, the crack thing could come into play then.

 

 

(sorry really bad joke, just not a big fan of him although his new bar is the Illini headquarters for "Arch Maddness")

 

Are you saying Al Hrabosky has a new bar downtown?