4/24: Cubs (Chatwood) @ CLE (Tomlin) 5:10 (MLBN, WGN)

[Thrilho]

Look, its a silly argument because they are both good to extremely good players and whoever is the lesser of the 2 is still giving you a great talent. I take Javy only cause with him we won a WS. Who knows if we would have without him? I dont want to take that chance. I am Team Javy for horsefeathering life.

Silly argument, fun peacocking over being right about Javy tomato tomato.

[David]

On a related note, does anyone know how Fangraphs calculates that offensive side of their WAR stat? Like how Lindor's 2017 batting line of .273/.337/.505 with 15 stolen bases pulled in a 21.0 while Javy's .273/.317/.480 with 10 stolen bases was a 2.2?

 

 

 

Lindor had a wRC+ of 118 and a .353 wOBA over 723 plate appearances in 2017

 

Baez 98 and .326 over 508 PA

 

Lindor was a lot better and over a considerably larger amount of opportunities

[bcl412]

yeah but javy has cool tags so he wins

[Thrilho]

On a related note, does anyone know how Fangraphs calculates that offensive side of their WAR stat? Like how Lindor's 2017 batting line of .273/.337/.505 with 15 stolen bases pulled in a 21.0 while Javy's .273/.317/.480 with 10 stolen bases was a 2.2?

 

 

 

Lindor had a wRC+ of 118 and a .353 wOBA over 723 plate appearances in 2017

 

Baez 98 and .326 over 508 PA

 

Lindor was a lot better and over a considerably larger amount of opportunities

My issue is less with Javy’s rating than Lindor’s. .337 OBP is Castro territory. For comparison, Rizzo had a .273/.392/.507 and 10 SBs last year in 691 PAs. Offensive value of 25.2 (vs Lindor at 22.0).

 

Riz has the same BA and slug as Lindor with 55 extra points of OBP. Put another way, Riz has 57 extra points of OPS on Lindor for 3 extra points of “offensive value. Lindor’s 45 extra points of OPS (plus the extra ABs) made him 10 times the offensive player that Javy is. All I’m saying is that there’s some secret sauce to all this.

 

The big thing to me with Lindor though is that there’s an awful lot of his value wrapped up in the 33 HRs from last year being real, which is a big deal considering that the previous two years he hit 15 and 16. I know Javy’s power is real, so if anyone wants to have this particular debate and hold the Lindor side of things you’d hope his power is real too or that he can keep his OBP above the Castro line.

[Cubswin11]

It’s also adjusted for position. Javy only played ~70 games at SS. The rest were mostly at 2B where the offensive bar is higher. And comparing Lindor and Riz is a little hard to do since Lindor put up the numbers at a harder position with a lower offensive bar.

[Aaron_Kennelly]

Lindor also gets a bump over Rizzo in Off of 8.9 due to base running. The BsR numbers go into Off. Also Lindor had more PAs than both. More PAs = more opportunity to add value. And it's also adjusted for stuff like park effects and whatnot. And OPS isn't the best measurement and will differ from wOBA and wRC+. So there might not appear to be differences between SLG%, but whether you double or homer or single your way to it matters -- because different types of hits are calculated differently than with SLG%. And since OBP and SLG have different denominators, there's even more hidden differences you might not see.

[Thrilho]

RIght on, any positional adjustment I think is kind of dumb since they’re already getting that in the defensive value.

 

I know OPS isn’t the best to use because on base is more important than slugging. And that a HR isn’t exactly 4 times as good as a single so slugging isn’t perfect. Good response though in general Duke. So much voodoo in there. Javy over Lindor 4ever!

[David]

RIght on, any positional adjustment I think is kind of dumb since they’re already getting that in the defensive value.

 

it's not like it's getting doubled up on in the composite

[Thrilho]

RIght on, any positional adjustment I think is kind of dumb since they’re already getting that in the defensive value.

 

it's not like it's getting doubled up on in the composite

I’d just prefer to be able to compare offensive stats between two players separately from their positional value. wOBA is cool because I know the value of a walk for this guy is the same as for that guy. Accounting for park factors and positional value does help normalize things but it muddies the water a bit much for my tastes.

[WrigleyField 22]

Javy knows Lindors name and he definitely doesn't know the names of lessor players, so they're at worst equals.

 

I'll stay on team Javy for life though. Still trying to convince my wife Javy is a good name for our first child.

[Bertz]

The offense numbers on FG aren't position adjusted. It's basically

 

wOBA (less the constant that scales it to OBP) * PAs + Baserunning runs