New Benny, and Other changes (Bulls offseason)

[Cubbie Swagger]

The entire reason this discussion started was I was saying that those first 8 years of Brand's career, before major injury, could have helped the Bulls stop sucking much sooner. That's why I am talking about that particular timeframe. Then, if you want to bring up someone like Grant, I think it only makes sense to look at the best stretch of his career for comparison. Rather than, say, picking a 6-8 year stretch at random. In the context of this conversation, it just doesn't make sense for you to bring up the career numbers of Horace Grant.

 

Of course, debating Brand vs Grant in the first place has no bearing on anything at all. We're just busying ourselves.

 

BTW nobody said anything about consecutive years. Does it change anything if its an 8 year stretch vs a 6 year stretch?

[Sammy Sofa]

The entire reason this discussion started was I was saying that those first 8 years of Brand's career, before major injury, could have helped the Bulls stop sucking much sooner. That's why I am talking about that particular timeframe. Then, if you want to bring up someone like Grant, I think it only makes sense to look at the best stretch of his career for comparison. Rather than, say, picking a 6-8 year stretch at random.

 

Of course, debating Brand vs Grant has no bearing on anything at all. We're just busying ourselves.

 

BTW nobody said anything about consecutive years. Does it change anything if its an 8 year stretch vs a 6 year stretch?

 

No, they remain not far off in value. The point that people have made is that ultimately you're overvaluing Brand's value/ability to drag up those terrible, terrible Bulls teams; they were THAT bad, and he simply wasn't good enough to drag up a stank-ass high enough, like we saw when he was with the Clippers. You're not going to find many people who think the parts in the trade itself were the right ones, but the decision to trade him at the time wasn't this terrible mistake. I'm assuming their logic was thinking that they were getting to improve in the longer run via two players instead of paying a ton for one, though Lord knows why they thought Brian Skinner would help anything.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm looking at the rosters for those early 2000's Bulls teams and it's probably the closest I'll ever get to 'Nam flashbacks.

[Cubbie Swagger]

No, they remain not far off in value.

Hold on... didn't we just establish that Brand was way better than Horace Grant over the first 8 years of his career? Now you are saying they were comparable, which was your original point that I disputed.

 

Over that 6-8 year period, Brand was significantly better than any 6-8 year period in the careers of Tyson Chandler of Horace Grant. If you want to talk overall career numbers, yes, obviously they level out due to Brand suffering a major injury.

 

How are we managing to have the same debate twice in one thread? If I'm overvaluing how much Brand meant to those shitty Bulls teams, then okay, but that's obviously not the only point being debated here. We pretty much wrapped all of that up already, and then you brought up Horace Grant.

[Sammy Sofa]

I brought up Horace Grant because he and Brand aren't that far off in value, whether you compare 6 years, 8 years, or career. It was simply pointing out you were overvaluing Brand in bemoaning that the Bulls traded him. I agree, however, that the return could have been better, but the actual decision made sense.

[Cubbie Swagger]

I brought up Horace Grant because he and Brand aren't that far off in value, whether you compare 6 years, 8 years, or career. It was simply pointing out you were overvaluing Brand in bemoaning that the Bulls traded him. I agree, however, that the return could have been better, but the actual decision made sense.

1) It looked to me like they WERE far off in value over that 6-8 year period according to the stats you mentioned. But, whatever. Agree to disagree. When in Rome.

 

2) You agree with the decision? Really? You draft a guy #1 overall in the draft. He puts up 20 and 10 in each of his first two seasons. You're like, "yay, he didn't flop". Then you trade him for the #2 pick in the draft. That makes sense to you?

 

As a GM, if I had scored on a #1 pick like that, I would have been focused on trying to surround him with other pieces. Not flipping him for a draft pick and prolonging the rebuild. Not to mention, rolling the dice that this pick pans out.

 

Edit: Not to mention, we already had the horsefeathering #1 pick that year, too!

[Sammy Sofa]

Again, the Bulls were wretchedly horrible then; presumably the thinking was two players would go further to improving the team than one. They presumably also realized that based on how bad they were it was going to take some time to improve, and getting two players who would be cheaper longer than one player who was going to cost a ton sooner would give them more of an ability to rebuild the team, even if it was just an extra season or two. Picking up Chandler was a good move....picking up Brian Skinner was a terrible move. But the general move of trading Brand at that time, I see the reasoning.

[Cubbie Swagger]

Again, the Bulls were wretchedly horrible then; presumably the thinking was two players would go further to improving the team than one. They presumably also realized that based on how bad they were it was going to take some time to improve, and getting two players who would be cheaper longer than one player who was going to cost a ton sooner would give them more of an ability to rebuild the team, even if it was just an extra season or two. Picking up Chandler was a good move....picking up Brian Skinner was a terrible move. But the general move of trading Brand at that time, I see the reasoning.

If I remember correctly (I was 11) we didn't pick up Brian Skinner. His Bulls career was the same as Andrew Bynum's, in that we had no intention of giving him a jersey.

 

But, I guess this is just where you and I differ as NBA executives. I think it was a bad move. I would have kept Brand, hopefully drafted someone besides Eddy Curry with my #1 pick, and then tried to attract a free agent.

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, the big thing at the time was that they wanted to get "more athletic," and they loved Chandler and Curry along those lines. Basically they were making room for Curry, and pre-injuries Brand wasn't exactly the kind of guy anyone was going to call "athletic" a la the Bulls' plan.

 

Either way, all the Clippers ended up doing with Brand is what the Bulls would have done with him; basically pay big money to a second or third option guy who basically would act as a Band-Aid on a head wound. I have zero confidence the Bulls at that time would have made the moves to actually maximize having him.

 

Fun fact: Pao Gasol was still on the board when Chandler was picked.

[Sammy Sofa]

Other fun fact: they were so bad after trading Brand that that lead to to the #2 pick in 2002, who was Jay Williams. Whoops.

[Cubbie Swagger]

Well, the big thing at the time was that they wanted to get "more athletic," and they loved Chandler and Curry along those lines. Basically they were making room for Curry, and pre-injuries Brand wasn't exactly the kind of guy anyone was going to call "athletic" a la the Bulls' plan.

 

Either way, all the Clippers ended up doing with Brand is what the Bulls would have done with him; basically pay big money to a second or third option guy who basically would act as a Band-Aid on a head wound. I have zero confidence the Bulls at that time would have made the moves to actually maximize having him.

 

Fun fact: Pao Gasol was still on the board when Chandler was picked.

Uh... wasn't Brand WAY more athletic than Curry? I remember Curry being chubby and slow-moving. Brand could actually create off the dribble.

[David]

Other fun fact: they were so bad after trading Brand that that lead to to the #2 pick in 2002, who was Jay Williams. Whoops.

 

Not so fun fact... If Jay Williams weren't such an irresponsible idiot he'd have had a career and the Bulls would've had Wade much much sooner and maybe even a ring or two.

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, at the time they were in love with Curry: the High School Phenom, not the Curry we ended up seeing for most of his NBA career. I remember leading into the draft Curry was talked about along those lines; Brand wasn't a statue or anything, but he was kind a slab of beef out there speed and agility-wise.

[Sammy Sofa]

Other fun fact: they were so bad after trading Brand that that lead to to the #2 pick in 2002, who was Jay Williams. Whoops.

 

Not so fun fact... If Jay Williams weren't such an irresponsible idiot he'd have had a career and the Bulls would've had Wade much much sooner and maybe even a ring or two.

 

Yeah, this one isn't the Bulls' fault, obviously, but it just was the terrible cherry on top of a bleak, bleak era.

[David]

i remember sitting in high school class day dreaming about how brian urlacher, eddy curry, and corey patterson were going to lead my teams to dominance through the 2000s

 

we didn't have curry yet, i just really wanted him.

[Sammy Sofa]

i remember sitting in high school class day dreaming about how brian urlacher, eddy curry, and corey patterson were going to lead my teams to dominance through the 2000s

 

we didn't have curry yet, i just really wanted him.

 

Same here.

[David]

i remember sitting in high school class day dreaming about how brian urlacher, eddy curry, and corey patterson were going to lead my teams to dominance through the 2000s

 

we didn't have curry yet, i just really wanted him.

 

Same here.

 

at least we were sort of right on one of them.

 

 

also the weird thing is i have like no recollection of urlacher's rookie year at all. you'd think i'd remember something from a game, but my earliest specific urlacher memory is the fumble return against atlanta.

[Sammy Sofa]

i remember sitting in high school class day dreaming about how brian urlacher, eddy curry, and corey patterson were going to lead my teams to dominance through the 2000s

 

we didn't have curry yet, i just really wanted him.

 

Same here.

 

at least we were sort of right on one of them.

 

 

also the weird thing is i have like no recollection of urlacher's rookie year at all. you'd think i'd remember something from a game, but my earliest specific urlacher memory is the fumble return against atlanta.

 

Well, sure, 2001 was great. Granted, 2002 sucked just as much as 2000 for the Bears, but it's cooler to think Urlacher ushered in a season of awesomeness.

 

I remember being like Cubbie Swagger towards Brand when the Bulls clashed with Curry over the heart issue. So, so pissed.

[Cubbie Swagger]

I just want to correct myself before someone else does: We didn't have the #1 pick that year, Curry was #4. For some reason, I was thinking we had the top 2 picks.

[Derwood]

I just want to correct myself before someone else does: We didn't have the #1 pick that year, Curry was #4. For some reason, I was thinking we had the top 2 picks.

 

With Kwame Brown #1, Pau Gasol #3, and Jason Richardson #5

[WrigleyField 22]

Well, the big thing at the time was that they wanted to get "more athletic," and they loved Chandler and Curry along those lines. Basically they were making room for Curry, and pre-injuries Brand wasn't exactly the kind of guy anyone was going to call "athletic" a la the Bulls' plan.

 

Either way, all the Clippers ended up doing with Brand is what the Bulls would have done with him; basically pay big money to a second or third option guy who basically would act as a Band-Aid on a head wound. I have zero confidence the Bulls at that time would have made the moves to actually maximize having him.

 

Fun fact: Pao Gasol was still on the board when Chandler was picked.

Uh... wasn't Brand WAY more athletic than Curry? I remember Curry being chubby and slow-moving. Brand could actually create off the dribble.

Not really. Curry, especially at 18, was a nimble dude. I think he was a tumbler? And he had a pretty decent vertical. He became a fat slob like 7 years later. Brand had good length (basically had C type length despite being only 6'9") and that was his advantagr, not athleticism.

 

Beyond becoming a fat slob the biggest issue was all he did was score. Even at his peak, his scoring efficency was among league best, but he didnt rebound, defend, pass, or do any other discernable bball skill well. Shaq did all those things and put up MVP type PERs.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

i remember sitting in high school class day dreaming about how brian urlacher, eddy curry, and corey patterson were going to lead my teams to dominance through the 2000s

 

we didn't have curry yet, i just really wanted him.

 

Same here.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Step-Brothers-Did-we-just-become-best-friends.gif

[David]

Well, the big thing at the time was that they wanted to get "more athletic," and they loved Chandler and Curry along those lines. Basically they were making room for Curry, and pre-injuries Brand wasn't exactly the kind of guy anyone was going to call "athletic" a la the Bulls' plan.

 

Either way, all the Clippers ended up doing with Brand is what the Bulls would have done with him; basically pay big money to a second or third option guy who basically would act as a Band-Aid on a head wound. I have zero confidence the Bulls at that time would have made the moves to actually maximize having him.

 

Fun fact: Pao Gasol was still on the board when Chandler was picked.

Uh... wasn't Brand WAY more athletic than Curry? I remember Curry being chubby and slow-moving. Brand could actually create off the dribble.

 

wait what the hell? NOOOOOOO

[WrigleyField 22]

Again, the Bulls were wretchedly horrible then; presumably the thinking was two players would go further to improving the team than one. They presumably also realized that based on how bad they were it was going to take some time to improve, and getting two players who would be cheaper longer than one player who was going to cost a ton sooner would give them more of an ability to rebuild the team, even if it was just an extra season or two. Picking up Chandler was a good move....picking up Brian Skinner was a terrible move. But the general move of trading Brand at that time, I see the reasoning.

If I remember correctly (I was 11) we didn't pick up Brian Skinner. His Bulls career was the same as Andrew Bynum's, in that we had no intention of giving him a jersey.

 

But, I guess this is just where you and I differ as NBA executives. I think it was a bad move. I would have kept Brand, hopefully drafted someone besides Eddy Curry with my #1 pick, and then tried to attract a free agent.

Lets say Pax had taken over by that point. He definitely keeps Brand and probably drafts the safe, older player from established program, so either Richardson or Battier.

 

Crawford

Richardson

Artest

Brand

Brad Miller

Hoiberg!

 

Probaly deals World Peace still at some point and probably doesnt bring back JC again when that time comes, but still some time for that. Still a pretty bad team, but not number 2 pick. 2002 isnt great for the experienced big time college players, but maybe we get Caron Butler in the mid-lotto

 

JC

Richardson

Butler

Brand

Miller

 

Bulls continue to make strides as a young core, but their lack of a true PG and two ball dominant young Gs is a clear bad fit, and they narrowly miss the playoffs. 2003 Pax falls in love with local Chicago kid Dwyane Wade. But he knows he must trade up to get him. Luckily Riley is eager for a quicker build and trades the number 7 pick to Chicago for Richardson.

 

Chicago finally has pieces that fit and make the playoffs but suffers a first round exit. But then in July of 2004 after too much clashing of egos SHAQ becomes available and the Bulls trade Caron Butler, Elton Brand, and some random vet FA they signed a few years ago plus a future pick for SHAQ.

 

Yadda yadda yadda Bulls build around Wade and Shaq while bringing on savvy vets like White Chocolate, win 2005 NBA finals. Wade throws sex parties, recruits the best basketball player in the world 4 years later, everyone hates Chicago. Lebron leaves us heartbroken and we sit here in 2016 trying to figure out where the Lebron and Wade relationships went wrong.

[Sammy Sofa]

Again, the Bulls were wretchedly horrible then; presumably the thinking was two players would go further to improving the team than one. They presumably also realized that based on how bad they were it was going to take some time to improve, and getting two players who would be cheaper longer than one player who was going to cost a ton sooner would give them more of an ability to rebuild the team, even if it was just an extra season or two. Picking up Chandler was a good move....picking up Brian Skinner was a terrible move. But the general move of trading Brand at that time, I see the reasoning.

If I remember correctly (I was 11) we didn't pick up Brian Skinner. His Bulls career was the same as Andrew Bynum's, in that we had no intention of giving him a jersey.

 

But, I guess this is just where you and I differ as NBA executives. I think it was a bad move. I would have kept Brand, hopefully drafted someone besides Eddy Curry with my #1 pick, and then tried to attract a free agent.

Lets say Pax had taken over by that point. He definitely keeps Brand and probably drafts the safe, older player from established program, so either Richardson or Battier.

 

Crawford

Richardson

Artest

Brand

Brad Miller

Hoiberg!

 

Probaly deals World Peace still at some point and probably doesnt bring back JC again when that time comes, but still some time for that. Still a pretty bad team, but not number 2 pick. 2002 isnt great for the experienced big time college players, but maybe we get Caron Butler in the mid-lotto

 

JC

Richardson

Butler

Brand

Miller

 

Bulls continue to make strides as a young core, but their lack of a true PG and two ball dominant young Gs is a clear bad fit, and they narrowly miss the playoffs. 2003 Pax falls in love with local Chicago kid Dwyane Wade. But he knows he must trade up to get him. Luckily Riley is eager for a quicker build and trades the number 7 pick to Chicago for Richardson.

 

Chicago finally has pieces that fit and make the playoffs but suffers a first round exit. But then in July of 2004 after too much clashing of egos SHAQ becomes available and the Bulls trade Caron Butler, Elton Brand, and some random vet FA they signed a few years ago plus a future pick for SHAQ.

 

Yadda yadda yadda Bulls build around Wade and Shaq while bringing on savvy vets like White Chocolate, win 2005 NBA finals. Wade throws sex parties, recruits the best basketball player in the world 4 years later, everyone hates Chicago. Lebron leaves us heartbroken and we sit here in 2016 trying to figure out where the Lebron and Wade relationships went wrong.

 

NOW DO THE KOBE TRADE.