The Pirates

[David]

I always feel like its tempting fate to root for certain teams to make the postseason, but if the bum Marlins make the postseason I couldn't imagine a better scenario for the Cubs.

 

Miami being held together by a bunch of slap hitters BABIPing their way to .300+ averages and one pitcher, and everything else is garbage.

 

it's not about who you can most easily beat, because that doesn't make much of a difference...for me it's just about who i don't want to lose to. the mets are #1 on that list for now. rather than them having a chance at beating us, i'd much rather they miss the playoffs and have to deal with that. cards would be #2 i guess, but we've owned them so hard over the last 10 months or so that i have a hard time mustering up as much of that hate.

[NOLA]

A buddy of mine just brought this up and I laughed it off at first, but if the Pirates fall behind the Brewers and out of it do they shop McCutchen?

[Clem Fandango]

No way. He's not having an ideal go of it right now so his trade value is as low as it's ever gonna be, but he's not been atrocious. And on top of that he's the cornerstone of that team and the face of the franchise, the fans would riot if they traded him probably. They should probably move him to LF and let Marte take over in CF though, but it's not like McCutchen is done. He's only 29 and is still under control at a very team friendly price through 2018. The problem with the Pirates isn't McCutchen, it's how much their pitching has collapsed this year which makes zero sense. This can be easily fixed by bringing up someone like Glasnow. A 1-2-3 of Cole, Taillon, and Glasnow would be tough to beat. As of right now Cole has a sub 3.00 ERA and everyone else not names Taillon has an ERA over 4.50. That's abysmal. they already put Taillon in place, bringing up Glasnow to remove another one of those awful starters is the next phase, but I think they're playing the arbitration game with him, which is stupid as they continue to sink into the standings. Offense for them is fine. Marte and polanco are putting up all-star caliber seasons, McCutchen will likely bounce back, they're getting good performances out of guys like Freese, Jaso, Harrison, Kang, Joyce, and others.

 

Their pitching is in shambles. Fix the pitching and they fix their problems.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'm nitpicking, but a 1-2-3 of Cole/Taillon/Glasnow would not be hard to beat. In future years with more development from Taillon/Glasnow sure, but this year it'd be somewhere between 6th and 10th in the NL.

 

That said, the Pirates aren't going to trade McCutchen. They could trade Melancon, and they might sell off a bench bat like Rodriguez or Freese that is near FA, but they don't need a cosmic shift.

[raw]

No way. He's not having an ideal go of it right now so his trade value is as low as it's ever gonna be, but he's not been atrocious. And on top of that he's the cornerstone of that team and the face of the franchise, the fans would riot if they traded him probably. They should probably move him to LF and let Marte take over in CF though, but it's not like McCutchen is done. He's only 29 and is still under control at a very team friendly price through 2018. The problem with the Pirates isn't McCutchen, it's how much their pitching has collapsed this year which makes zero sense. This can be easily fixed by bringing up someone like Glasnow. A 1-2-3 of Cole, Taillon, and Glasnow would be tough to beat. As of right now Cole has a sub 3.00 ERA and everyone else not names Taillon has an ERA over 4.50. That's abysmal. they already put Taillon in place, bringing up Glasnow to remove another one of those awful starters is the next phase, but I think they're playing the arbitration game with him, which is stupid as they continue to sink into the standings. Offense for them is fine. Marte and polanco are putting up all-star caliber seasons, McCutchen will likely bounce back, they're getting good performances out of guys like Freese, Jaso, Harrison, Kang, Joyce, and others.

 

Their pitching is in shambles. Fix the pitching and they fix their problems.

 

I think they could get away with trading McCutchen this year moreso than any year in the past and maybe the future. The city is buzzing over the Penguins winning and the Steelers will be in camp in a little over a month and going into the season as one of the favorites. They're used to the Pirates failing and it would be easier to take now. Plus, they'd get a ton for him and have a bunch of good young players, so they probably wouldn't be much worse off long-term.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I hope this is the start of another 6 decades of losing seasons for them

[JennieGarthAlgar]

Pittsburgh adores Andrew McCutcheon. Stanley Cup and NFL wouldnt be enough distraction that it wouldnt crush them if he were traded for prospects. If it didnt work out right away, I'm sure they'd lose a lot of the fringey fans that just came back on the bandwagon. I just don't see it happening this year.

[Cubswin11]

The Pirates are dead/ end thread

[Aaron_Kennelly]

The Pirates are dead/ end thread

 

All non-Cub teams are dead.

[David]

Lol the thread started discuss the pirates as another contender in our division is now talking about whether they should trade Andrew mccutchen

[CyHawk_Cub]

LOL CardinalsPirates.

[raw]

Pittsburgh adores Andrew McCutcheon. Stanley Cup and NFL wouldnt be enough distraction that it wouldnt crush them if he were traded for prospects. If it didnt work out right away, I'm sure they'd lose a lot of the fringey fans that just came back on the bandwagon. I just don't see it happening this year.

 

They also adored Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonilla, Jay Bell, Jason Kendall, Aramis Ramirez, Jason Bay, and Neil Walker. Basically, they'd get over it. And the Pirates have never cared all that much about fringy fans. They are not a team that is going to be able to add pieces to keep pace with the Cubs over the next few years. And their philosophy has always been, if they aren't good enough....rebuild. McCutheon's value is never going to be higher than it is right now and his value isn't as high as it once was for the Pirates, as they have Marte, Polanco, Kang, Cervelli, and their pitching staff (with a great PC) to build upon. And between trades of McCutheon, Melancon, and Liriano, they could get a ton of young talent and not have a ton of drop off while also shedding 3 of their top 5 salary commitments.

[Sammy Sofa]

That seems VERY unlikely.

[raw]

That seems VERY unlikely.

 

I didn't say it was likely. But it makes sense for the Pirates to do. They obviously aren't going to catch the Cubs this year. They have wildcard hopes but they are under .500 and are another loss tonight away from being behind 5 teams to fulfill those hopes. But the bigger issue is that even if Taillon and Glasnow hit the ground running next year (along w/ Cole) they aren't going to be able to add any other pieces to be as good as the Cubs next year or probably the year after. McCutchen is going to be 30 after the year and already seems to be losing his speed, he's also walking less and striking out more than his recent MVP caliber seasons. They aren't going to be able to compete if he's not an MVP caliber player, and if he's not and they don't trade him this year (or this offseason) they'll be stuck w/ the last 2 1/2 years of his contract, which I don't think is ideal for a team like the Pirates if they aren't winning.

[Sammy Sofa]

Right; THIS year. It's not like we're looking at a Pirates team set up for a prolonged stretch of badness or mediocrity. Trading a valuable and beloved players really isn't something they need to do or should do when it's hardly a stretch to think they'll be competitive again next season.

[raw]

Right; THIS year. It's not like we're looking at a Pirates team set up for a prolonged stretch of badness or mediocrity. Trading a valuable and beloved players really isn't something they need to do or should do when it's hardly a stretch to think they'll be competitive again next season.

 

What do you consider competitive? The Cubs could conceivably finish 20+ games ahead of a decent Pirates team. Do you think the Cubs are going to come that far back to the pack? Do you think the Pirates are going to take that big of a step forward? The question isn't whether or not they could be good. The question is can they be as good as the Cubs. They are going to need Glasnow and Taillon to be really good. They are going to need McCutchen to get back to MVP numbers. They are not going to be able to go out and sign a Jason Heyward or Jon Lester to really make a run for it. I just don't see this as a situation where the Pirates can continue to fade under .500 and say, "oh well, we'll get the Cubs next year!". Teams get better as players develop and get better at the ML level or they add talent. The Pirates have very little developing left to do offensively at least and don't have the ability to add talent other than thru the draft or trades.

[Sammy Sofa]

Competitive simply has to be "can we make the playoffs," which they very easily could do next season. They certainly don't have to be as good as we hope the Cubs will be next season to do that.

[David]

Competitive simply has to be "can we make the playoffs," which they very easily could do next season. They certainly don't have to be as good as we hope the Cubs will be next season to do that.

 

yeah...i don't see how you just ignore the wild card and "rebuild" when you have a good team just because there's a likely dominant team for the next few years in your division.

[raw]

Competitive simply has to be "can we make the playoffs," which they very easily could do next season. They certainly don't have to be as good as we hope the Cubs will be next season to do that.

 

Make the playoffs hasn't been good enough the last 2 years, they've been out after 1 game. To me, it's hard to justify running in mud just to potentially lose your 1 and only playoff game for the next few years (which would be the case if they aren't better than the Cubs). I understand the whole "crapshoot" playoffs thing, but it would be different if we're talking about a division winner, guaranteed a 5-game series. But as long as they're behind the Cubs they face a 50/50 chance of going home after the 163rd game, while they need to beat a Jake Arrieta, Madison Bumgarner, Clayton Kershaw, Matt Harvey, Stephen Strasburg type of pitcher. For a small market team already pushing 90M in payroll and needing to pay arbitration guys in the near future....that's not an ideal scenario, IMO.

[David]

Competitive simply has to be "can we make the playoffs," which they very easily could do next season. They certainly don't have to be as good as we hope the Cubs will be next season to do that.

 

Make the playoffs hasn't been good enough the last 2 years, they've been out after 1 game. To me, it's hard to justify running in mud just to potentially lose your 1 and only playoff game for the next few years (which would be the case if they aren't better than the Cubs). I understand the whole "crapshoot" playoffs thing, but it would be different if we're talking about a division winner, guaranteed a 5-game series. But as long as they're behind the Cubs they face a 50/50 chance of going home after the 163rd game, while they need to beat a Jake Arrieta, Madison Bumgarner, Clayton Kershaw, Matt Harvey, Stephen Strasburg type of pitcher. For a small market team already pushing 90M in payroll and needing to pay arbitration guys in the near future....that's not an ideal scenario, IMO.

 

so they rebuild to probably be in a very similar spot again in 5 years?

 

i think they're set up very well with lots of good young players for the next few years and i don't see why they should start a tear down because the cubs are insanely dominant right now. lots can change from year to year.

[raw]

Competitive simply has to be "can we make the playoffs," which they very easily could do next season. They certainly don't have to be as good as we hope the Cubs will be next season to do that.

 

yeah...i don't see how you just ignore the wild card and "rebuild" when you have a good team just because there's a likely dominant team for the next few years in your division.

 

I don't see it as a rebuild in the typical sense of the word. They could conceivably be a wildcard contender next year without McCutchen. Marte, Polanco, Kang, and Cervelli are a solid start to an offense. Mercer and Harrison are decent role players. Cole, Taillon and Glasnow are a solid 1-2-3. They've consistently put together a strong bullpen with reclamation projects. Then throw in whatever they could get from McCutchen and/or Liriano and/or Melancon, and you still have a solid team. Granted, they can compete with McCutchen and get a decent amount for the other 2 guys....but McCutchen appears to be going the wrong way as a player and has the most trade value. Add in Cole being arbitration eligible next year, Marte, Polanco and Cervelli's team friendly deals getting less team-friendly starting in the next 2 years.....and it's something that should seriously be considered.

 

And let's not forget who we are talking about. This isn't the Cards, Mets, Nationals, or Dodgers....the other current WC contenders. This is the Pirates who aren't signing top FAs or spending 120M in payroll to try to compete.

[raw]

Competitive simply has to be "can we make the playoffs," which they very easily could do next season. They certainly don't have to be as good as we hope the Cubs will be next season to do that.

 

Make the playoffs hasn't been good enough the last 2 years, they've been out after 1 game. To me, it's hard to justify running in mud just to potentially lose your 1 and only playoff game for the next few years (which would be the case if they aren't better than the Cubs). I understand the whole "crapshoot" playoffs thing, but it would be different if we're talking about a division winner, guaranteed a 5-game series. But as long as they're behind the Cubs they face a 50/50 chance of going home after the 163rd game, while they need to beat a Jake Arrieta, Madison Bumgarner, Clayton Kershaw, Matt Harvey, Stephen Strasburg type of pitcher. For a small market team already pushing 90M in payroll and needing to pay arbitration guys in the near future....that's not an ideal scenario, IMO.

 

so they rebuild to probably be in a very similar spot again in 5 years?

 

i think they're set up very well with lots of good young players for the next few years and i don't see why they should start a tear down because the cubs are insanely dominant right now. lots can change from year to year.

 

Who said anything about a tear down? I'm talking about trading McCutchen, 1 single player....who is the 4th best player on their team this year. I think Liriano and Melancon are a foregone conclusion to be traded if the Pirates are still under .500 and behind 4 teams for the WC a month from now.

[David]

fair enough. i know that's how the discussion started but it seemed like you were making a "they're not gonna win the division so why bother trying" argument.

[snoodmonger]

Competitive simply has to be "can we make the playoffs," which they very easily could do next season. They certainly don't have to be as good as we hope the Cubs will be next season to do that.

 

Make the playoffs hasn't been good enough the last 2 years, they've been out after 1 game. To me, it's hard to justify running in mud just to potentially lose your 1 and only playoff game for the next few years (which would be the case if they aren't better than the Cubs). I understand the whole "crapshoot" playoffs thing, but it would be different if we're talking about a division winner, guaranteed a 5-game series. But as long as they're behind the Cubs they face a 50/50 chance of going home after the 163rd game, while they need to beat a Jake Arrieta, Madison Bumgarner, Clayton Kershaw, Matt Harvey, Stephen Strasburg type of pitcher. For a small market team already pushing 90M in payroll and needing to pay arbitration guys in the near future....that's not an ideal scenario, IMO.

 

That's silly. You absolutely keep the pieces in place if you're good enough to be a wild card team. You don't plug the plug and rebuild because you're scared of facing Stephen Strasburg in a wild card game.

[raw]

fair enough. i know that's how the discussion started but it seemed like you were making a "they're not gonna win the division so why bother trying" argument.

 

Wasn't trying to, but I could see how it could look that way. Was going more for a "they aren't going to win the division, so why pay a guy on the downside of his career 1/5 of their already higher than they'd probably like payroll just because he's a fan favorite" argument.