Johnson & Maholm traded to Braves for RHP Vizcaino & Chapman

[TruffleShuffle]

We got a top-50 prospect. For Paul Maholm.

 

I just can't wrap my head around this.

 

I very much doubt that any of the prospect people rank him in their top 50 at this stage. He was marginal top 50 before the season and subsequently blew out his elbow.

 

For comparison, most people had John Lamb (royals) as a top 30 guy earlier last year, and I've barely seen him on a top 100 list since his surgery last July.

[TruffleShuffle]

PS great trade

[tgkimmel]

Keith Law likes it.

 

The price for Atlanta, however, was too high. I had Vizcaino ranked as the 14th-best prospect in baseball coming into 2012, but an elbow ligament he partially tore in 2010 flared up again in March, leading to Tommy John surgery that ended his season, although he should be back for spring training.

 

When healthy, Vizcaino is 92-96 as a starter, with an out-pitch curveball, showing slider velocity but with two-plane action and depth. He has good arm speed on his changeup and was very effective against left-handed batters in the minors in 2011, a testament to that pitch given his arm slot, which is a little below three-quarters. (Pitchers with lower arm slots are easier to pick up for opposite-handed hitters.)

 

His arm is very quick, but he has been a little fly ball-prone in the minors. Atlanta seemed ready to pigeonhole him in a relief role due to the lingering injury, but the Cubs have to let him prove he's not a starter, given his repertoire and history of throwing strikes.

 

Chapman is an organizational arm who could end up a back-end reliever. Vizcaino alone is a tremendous return for what the Cubs gave up, a shot at a No. 2 or better starter in exchange for an extra outfielder and a pitcher anyone could have signed for $5 million last winter.

 

It was a busy night for the Cubs, who also flipped catcher Geovany Soto to the Texas Rangers for right-hander Jacob Brigham. Soto gives the Rangers a capable backup catcher who is a better defender than starter Mike Napoli and can draw the occasional walk; he's under control for 2013, so if he remembers how to hit (.623 OPS this year) I suppose he could give the Rangers an option to replace Napoli if the latter leaves as a free agent.

 

Brigham has a plus fastball and power breaking ball but lacks the command and the third pitch to start; lefties have lit him up for a .287/.388/.503 line in 412 PA since he reached Double-A.

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8216730/analyzing-trade-braves-cubs-featured-paul-maholm-reed-johnson-arodys-vizcaino

[neely crenshaw]

yes, but those are the people who truly thought this team would contend because Fielder and Pujols left.

 

Some clearly don't get the idea of building. As much as we may like a certain "role" player, those types of players can be found every off season. there is a reason we could get Maholm for under 5 mil a year when a ted lilly cost 11-12 mil. the pirates signed bedard to basically the same deal to replace him, and I'm pretty sure no one is talking about building around him!

 

We got pieces tonight. We did not get our team of the future. We are simply better off getting prospects to develop, knowing we can then go and sign pieces similar to johnson, baker, soto, maholm, during any offseason.

 

The more prospects we get, the more likely some make it to the bigs, and the more things we have to deal when we sort out exactly what pressing needs we have.

 

Would we be better the rest of this season and maybe even next if we had kept everyone, sure.

But in the big picture does it really matter if you win 60 or win 70? To hang onto pieces inorder to be less horrid, would be stupid. However some still don't understand it.

[UMFan83]

Wow how many top 10 prospects have Theo and co. acquired since taking over? Rizzo, Soler, Almora, vizcaino, who else?

 

He's done a terrific job rebuilding the top end of the farm, even without seeing the first returns on this draft class.

[El Duderino]

Wow how many top 10 prospects have Theo and co. acquired since taking over? Rizzo, Soler, Almora, vizcaino, who else?

 

He's done a terrific job rebuilding the top end of the farm, even without seeing the first returns on this draft class.

 

Some might put Pierce Johnson in the top 10. Ronald Torreyes is probably top 15 at this point.

[davell]

Yeah, Pierce Johnson was a top 30 prospect in the draft, if not for his arm issues late. There were rumors on draft day Oakland was taking him 11th. Torreyes could easily end the year in our top 10. One horribly unlucky month aside, he's been extremely good as a 19 year old playing High A ball. Granted, with the deadline, I'll admit neither of these guys are probably top 10 once we're done.

[mhuber92211]

Keith Law makes it seem like this guy is Kerry Wood.

[toonsterwu]

I absolutely love this trade. I've been on the Vizcaino bandwagon since his Yankees days (I think there's a post somewhere on Sickels site where, after his trade to the Yankees, I said I thought he was going to be better starting pitching prospect than Teheran). Yes, we could get him for Paul Maholm partly because he went under the knife, but this is an absolutely great gamble to make.

 

No, it's not Dempster for Delgado (although last year, I did prefer Vizcaino to Delgado, but going under the knife changes the equation on value), but it's damn good.

[Guest]

I've got nothing to add other than that Vizcaino and I (and rocket, I think) are birthday brothers.

[TruffleShuffle]

Keith Law makes it seem like this guy is Kerry Wood.

 

except for the whole "history of throwing strikes" thing.

[Guest]

dempster trade falls through..

 

"while we have you on the line..."

 

wsr is king for a day

 

LOL

[Little Slide Rooter]

dempster trade falls through..

 

"while we have you on the line..."

 

wsr is king for a day

 

LOL

 

No bonus points for the AND Reed Johnson part?

[RynoRules]

Keith Law likes it.

 

The price for Atlanta, however, was too high. I had Vizcaino ranked as the 14th-best prospect in baseball coming into 2012, but an elbow ligament he partially tore in 2010 flared up again in March, leading to Tommy John surgery that ended his season, although he should be back for spring training.

 

When healthy, Vizcaino is 92-96 as a starter, with an out-pitch curveball, showing slider velocity but with two-plane action and depth. He has good arm speed on his changeup and was very effective against left-handed batters in the minors in 2011, a testament to that pitch given his arm slot, which is a little below three-quarters. (Pitchers with lower arm slots are easier to pick up for opposite-handed hitters.)

 

His arm is very quick, but he has been a little fly ball-prone in the minors. Atlanta seemed ready to pigeonhole him in a relief role due to the lingering injury, but the Cubs have to let him prove he's not a starter, given his repertoire and history of throwing strikes.

 

Chapman is an organizational arm who could end up a back-end reliever. Vizcaino alone is a tremendous return for what the Cubs gave up, a shot at a No. 2 or better starter in exchange for an extra outfielder and a pitcher anyone could have signed for $5 million last winter.

 

It was a busy night for the Cubs, who also flipped catcher Geovany Soto to the Texas Rangers for right-hander Jacob Brigham. Soto gives the Rangers a capable backup catcher who is a better defender than starter Mike Napoli and can draw the occasional walk; he's under control for 2013, so if he remembers how to hit (.623 OPS this year) I suppose he could give the Rangers an option to replace Napoli if the latter leaves as a free agent.

 

Brigham has a plus fastball and power breaking ball but lacks the command and the third pitch to start; lefties have lit him up for a .287/.388/.503 line in 412 PA since he reached Double-A.

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8216730/analyzing-trade-braves-cubs-featured-paul-maholm-reed-johnson-arodys-vizcaino

 

Getting Vizcaino for a 35 year old 4th OF'er and back-end starter reminds me of the Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell trade back in the day. Friggin' steal. This is like when Wesley put iocane powder in both goblets, leading to Vizzin's demise....or something like that.

[TruffleShuffle]

He gives you a quality at-bat. He gives you an excellent at-bat. He plays the game the right way. It’s hard to find guys, especially right-handed hitters, that can play center field, play left as well. With our club that’s so important. We need another right-handed hitter that we’ll feel comfortable putting out there and getting a number of at-bats.

 

The thing that kept coming back is he doesn’t give in. He’s not going to throw you a fastball just because he’s behind in the count. He’s not going to throw you a fastball in fastball counts. He’s going to pitch his game. And he’s going to pitch his game and has been very good at it.

[Banedon]

He gives you a quality at-bat. He gives you an excellent at-bat. He plays the game the right way. It’s hard to find guys, especially right-handed hitters, that can play center field, play left as well. With our club that’s so important. We need another right-handed hitter that we’ll feel comfortable putting out there and getting a number of at-bats.

 

The thing that kept coming back is he doesn’t give in. He’s not going to throw you a fastball just because he’s behind in the count. He’s not going to throw you a fastball in fastball counts. He’s going to pitch his game. And he’s going to pitch his game and has been very good at it.

 

Classic GM speak.

[Theo]

Keith Law likes it.

 

The price for Atlanta, however, was too high. I had Vizcaino ranked as the 14th-best prospect in baseball coming into 2012, but an elbow ligament he partially tore in 2010 flared up again in March, leading to Tommy John surgery that ended his season, although he should be back for spring training.

 

When healthy, Vizcaino is 92-96 as a starter, with an out-pitch curveball, showing slider velocity but with two-plane action and depth. He has good arm speed on his changeup and was very effective against left-handed batters in the minors in 2011, a testament to that pitch given his arm slot, which is a little below three-quarters. (Pitchers with lower arm slots are easier to pick up for opposite-handed hitters.)

 

His arm is very quick, but he has been a little fly ball-prone in the minors. Atlanta seemed ready to pigeonhole him in a relief role due to the lingering injury, but the Cubs have to let him prove he's not a starter, given his repertoire and history of throwing strikes.

 

Chapman is an organizational arm who could end up a back-end reliever. Vizcaino alone is a tremendous return for what the Cubs gave up, a shot at a No. 2 or better starter in exchange for an extra outfielder and a pitcher anyone could have signed for $5 million last winter.

 

It was a busy night for the Cubs, who also flipped catcher Geovany Soto to the Texas Rangers for right-hander Jacob Brigham. Soto gives the Rangers a capable backup catcher who is a better defender than starter Mike Napoli and can draw the occasional walk; he's under control for 2013, so if he remembers how to hit (.623 OPS this year) I suppose he could give the Rangers an option to replace Napoli if the latter leaves as a free agent.

 

Brigham has a plus fastball and power breaking ball but lacks the command and the third pitch to start; lefties have lit him up for a .287/.388/.503 line in 412 PA since he reached Double-A.

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8216730/analyzing-trade-braves-cubs-featured-paul-maholm-reed-johnson-arodys-vizcaino

 

Getting Vizcaino for a 35 year old 4th OF'er and back-end starter reminds me of the Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell trade back in the day. Friggin' steal. This is like when Wesley put iocane powder in both goblets, leading to Vizzin's demise....or something like that.

woah, Bagwell is a future HOFer, I like the trade, but let's pump the brakes a bit

[Little Slide Rooter]

Keith Law likes it.

 

The price for Atlanta, however, was too high. I had Vizcaino ranked as the 14th-best prospect in baseball coming into 2012, but an elbow ligament he partially tore in 2010 flared up again in March, leading to Tommy John surgery that ended his season, although he should be back for spring training.

 

When healthy, Vizcaino is 92-96 as a starter, with an out-pitch curveball, showing slider velocity but with two-plane action and depth. He has good arm speed on his changeup and was very effective against left-handed batters in the minors in 2011, a testament to that pitch given his arm slot, which is a little below three-quarters. (Pitchers with lower arm slots are easier to pick up for opposite-handed hitters.)

 

His arm is very quick, but he has been a little fly ball-prone in the minors. Atlanta seemed ready to pigeonhole him in a relief role due to the lingering injury, but the Cubs have to let him prove he's not a starter, given his repertoire and history of throwing strikes.

 

Chapman is an organizational arm who could end up a back-end reliever. Vizcaino alone is a tremendous return for what the Cubs gave up, a shot at a No. 2 or better starter in exchange for an extra outfielder and a pitcher anyone could have signed for $5 million last winter.

 

It was a busy night for the Cubs, who also flipped catcher Geovany Soto to the Texas Rangers for right-hander Jacob Brigham. Soto gives the Rangers a capable backup catcher who is a better defender than starter Mike Napoli and can draw the occasional walk; he's under control for 2013, so if he remembers how to hit (.623 OPS this year) I suppose he could give the Rangers an option to replace Napoli if the latter leaves as a free agent.

 

Brigham has a plus fastball and power breaking ball but lacks the command and the third pitch to start; lefties have lit him up for a .287/.388/.503 line in 412 PA since he reached Double-A.

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/law_keith/id/8216730/analyzing-trade-braves-cubs-featured-paul-maholm-reed-johnson-arodys-vizcaino

 

Getting Vizcaino for a 35 year old 4th OF'er and back-end starter reminds me of the Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell trade back in the day. Friggin' steal. This is like when Wesley put iocane powder in both goblets, leading to Vizzin's demise....or something like that.

 

Reminds me of something more recent and close to home: the Ian Stewart trade. We send them a guy who's a safe bet to be a productive but not steller player in exchange for a higher risk guy with a much higher ceiling. Obviously, Vizcaino's younger, and has a much better chance at reaching his ceiling, but the principle remains.

 

Make no mistake, we didn't get one over on the Braves here. I can't think of too many times that anyone's put one over on the Braves. We gave them what they've been looking for. A veteran starter. Greinke's off the table. Dempster rejected them. The Phillies and Marlins want money and prospects for Lee and JJ, and the Braves have stated that they don't have much money to give. They must have known that to get what they want, they'd have to give up one of their high ceiling arms and then some. Enter Theo with a solution: Maholm might not be Greinke, Dempster, JJ, or Lee but he's having a steller season aside from his 1st 2 starts. He also has a good history at the Braves park, and he's very affordable next season. We just asked for their guy who's coming off TJS and one more fringe prospect.

 

I sincerely hope that we can swing something similar for DeJesus.

[Guest]

Score callers calling this a junk package are driving me nuts.

 

 

Guy just called in calling the return from last night junk and asking if we've gotten anything in these moves the past several years (completely ignoring the fact that this is an entirely different regime), aside from Chris Archer (who he really wishes we had back)...

 

Hanley basically replies, "Uh... no, I guess not. Jury is still out on Travis Wood."

 

Mully goes "Well ya got Garza... didn't give up much of anything for him," (which is also funny because he totally didn't realize that the guy the caller mentioned was given up in the Garza trade).

 

 

The Score update guys are just referring to Vizcaino as a minor league pitcher coming off Tommy John.

 

 

This is 5-10 min after after Goldstein was on and spoke really highly of the return on both these trades.

 

 

People are stupid.

[jersey cubs fan]

Their biggest return so far this deadline is a guy who just had TJS. They really haven't gotten a whole lot.

[Guest]

Their biggest return so far this deadline is a guy who just had TJS. They really haven't gotten a whole lot.

 

They got a guy who Law had as the 14th best prospect in baseball (and others widely had him top 50) going into this year for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson. On top of it, they somehow also got a guy who can strike guys out out of the bullpen.

 

 

TJS isn't really a huge red flag. If anything, it's nice that he's already had it. It'd be nicer if he had it earlier.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Their biggest return so far this deadline is a guy who just had TJS. They really haven't gotten a whole lot.

Have a few cocktails; this is going to be a fun day.

[jersey cubs fan]

Their biggest return so far this deadline is a guy who just had TJS. They really haven't gotten a whole lot.

 

They got a guy who Law had as the 14th best prospect in baseball (and others widely had him top 50) going into this year for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson. On top of it, they somehow also got a guy who can strike guys out out of the bullpen.

 

 

TJS isn't really a huge red flag. If anything, it's nice that he's already had it. It'd be nicer if he had it earlier.

 

Alright, relax a little. A prospect getting surgery is absolutely a red flag. It is the only way you can get otherwise highly rated guys for people like Maholm. Furthermore, I thought everybody hated Keith Law. It's a nice value for value trade, but they still just have a couple potential back of the bullpen guys and a rehabbing player. They've yet to make a huge deadline splash yet, although it was fun to see guys leaving left and right during the game.

[dew1679666265]

They got a guy who Law had as the 14th best prospect in baseball (and others widely had him top 50) going into this year for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson. On top of it, they somehow also got a guy who can strike guys out out of the bullpen.

 

Yeah, even if you don't like Vizcaino that much because of injuries, you have to keep in mind it's Maholm and Reed we just gave up - getting anything of real value is a really good return.

 

I still can't believe we got this kind of stud upside in the trade, TJS or not.

[Guest]

Their biggest return so far this deadline is a guy who just had TJS. They really haven't gotten a whole lot.

 

They got a guy who Law had as the 14th best prospect in baseball (and others widely had him top 50) going into this year for Paul Maholm and Reed Johnson. On top of it, they somehow also got a guy who can strike guys out out of the bullpen.

 

 

TJS isn't really a huge red flag. If anything, it's nice that he's already had it. It'd be nicer if he had it earlier.

 

Alright, relax a little. A prospect getting surgery is absolutely a red flag. It is the only way you can get otherwise highly rated guys for people like Maholm. Furthermore, I thought everybody hated Keith Law. It's a nice value for value trade, but they still just have a couple potential back of the bullpen guys and a rehabbing player. They've yet to make a huge deadline splash yet, although it was fun to see guys leaving left and right during the game.

 

Yea, I don't.

 

Law was not a fan of Hendry and probably had some bias against Hendry guys over the years so posters here didn't like him. That doesn't include me. Maybe it would if I followed the farm back then.

Edited July 31, 2012 by David