Pirates

[DiamondMind]

[OleMissCub]

 

I can't believe that video is still up. Any video of an MLB player doing anything in uniform that isn't cell phone footage has a lifespan of a few days if not hours on YouTube.

[Jake]

... Was the 2003 Rule 5 draft story common knowledge? (basically 5 of the first 6 picks of that draft were used on Pirates players.

 

Still talked about in the 'Burgh. Not to defend anything that happened there, especially since we had spots open on the 40 man, but ...

 

If memory serves, the only player taken of the 5 to do anything in the majors over an extended time was Bautista. And, the reason for leaving him unprotected was that he only had 150 or so professional at bats and never played above A ball, it'd be hard to keep him on the roster. And, indeed it was - he was put on waivers twice. The thing is, he was claimed each time he was put on waivers, ultimately ending up back with the Pirates through a trade. Ultimately, it cost us Jeff Keppinger.

 

Chris Shelton had a nice streak with the Tigers, but was gone by the end of the next year.

Rich Thompson - don't know a thing about him.

Jeff Bennet spent some time as a middle reliever with the Brewers

Frank Brooks - don't know what he did.

(Yes, I had to look up the names, save for Shelton and Bautista.)

 

While it didn't really hurt in the long run, I don't mean to understate what a fiasco it was.

[Jake]

... Was the 2003 Rule 5 draft story common knowledge? (basically 5 of the first 6 picks of that draft were used on Pirates players.

 

Still talked about in the 'Burgh. Not to defend anything that happened there, especially since we had spots open on the 40 man, but ...

 

If memory serves, the only player taken of the 5 to do anything in the majors over an extended time was Bautista. And, the reason for leaving him unprotected was that he only had 150 or so professional at bats and never played above A ball, it'd be hard to keep him on the roster. And, indeed it was - he was put on waivers twice. The thing is, he was claimed each time he was put on waivers, ultimately ending up back with the Pirates through a trade. Ultimately, it cost us Jeff Keppinger.

 

Chris Shelton had a nice streak with the Tigers, but was gone by the end of the next year.

Rich Thompson - don't know a thing about him.

Jeff Bennet spent some time as a middle reliever with the Brewers

Frank Brooks - don't know what he did.

(Yes, I had to look up the names, save for Shelton and Bautista.)

 

While it didn't really hurt in the long run, I don't mean to understate what a fiasco it was.

[Jake]

Article about the Pirates follies of the last 18 years on Grantland. Was the 2003 Rule 5 draft story common knowledge? (basically 5 of the first 6 picks of that draft were used on Pirates players. The Pirates passed on their own pick and laughter was heard from the other teams)

 

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6781455/when-long-shot-your-best-shot

 

You're gonna love when you find out who was the 1 player of those 5 to amount to anything. (What a mess of a sentence)

 

And how the Pirates re-acquired him at their normal trade deadline dump that same year. (despite him doing nothing all season at the major league level.

 

Only to trade him away later for a guy they'd non-tender a month after acquiring him.

 

Sorry Jake.

 

Heh, just saw this after my previous post. Yeah, we still talk about this.

[Jake]

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/pirates/s_747324.html

 

Piece on Pirates defense.

 

Just something we're talking about.

 

We just took a series from the Reds, 2 games to 1. We scored a total of 4 runs in the series. Think about that.

 

How'd we lose the third game ? 2 unearned runs (BTW, check out Karsten's ERA).

 

The first game, rain delay, came with the bases loaded, 2 out, bottom of the first. Ground ball up the middle. Great stop by d'Arnaud (the goat yesterday). Most times (All of last year, in fact), that ball is going through, two runs score, Morton falls apart, we lose - we only scored 2 runs. Walker made a great play the next night.

 

The video posted on the previous page - I didn't watch the whole thing, but it had a nice catch by Cutch.

[NonProfitCow]

The Pirates as a team have a 5.3 UZR and 1 DRS. Good, but not great. Karstens and Maholm are skating by purely on BABIP luck. Like I said earlier, if the defense is the same for all the pitchers, why is the BABIP so much different?

[SouthSideRyan]

Article about the Pirates follies of the last 18 years on Grantland. Was the 2003 Rule 5 draft story common knowledge? (basically 5 of the first 6 picks of that draft were used on Pirates players. The Pirates passed on their own pick and laughter was heard from the other teams)

 

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6781455/when-long-shot-your-best-shot

 

You're gonna love when you find out who was the 1 player of those 5 to amount to anything. (What a mess of a sentence)

 

And how the Pirates re-acquired him at their normal trade deadline dump that same year. (despite him doing nothing all season at the major league level.

 

Only to trade him away later for a guy they'd non-tender a month after acquiring him.

 

Sorry Jake.

 

Heh, just saw this after my previous post. Yeah, we still talk about this.

 

It's hard to find fault with them for trading him away. (The return on the other hand??)

 

But re-acquiring him the same year he wasn't even good enough for your 40 man roster after he had proven nothing?? Just bizarre. (Which I guess sums up the Littlefield regime.)

[TruffleShuffle]

the matt morris trade was possibly the dumbest trade i've ever seen an mlb organization pull off.

[SouthSideRyan]

the matt morris trade was possibly the dumbest trade i've ever seen an mlb organization pull off.

 

Until this past offseason.

 

And even then, I'm not so sure.

[Little Slide Rooter]

the matt morris trade was possibly the dumbest trade i've ever seen an mlb organization pull off.

 

I remember being baffled as to why a team that had not intention of competing anytime soon wanted Matt Morris.

[Little Slide Rooter]

the matt morris trade was possibly the dumbest trade i've ever seen an mlb organization pull off.

 

Until this past offseason.

And even then, I'm not so sure.

 

Just out of curiosity, what trade are you speaking of?

[Jake]

The Pirates as a team have a 5.3 UZR and 1 DRS. Good, but not great. Karstens and Maholm are skating by purely on BABIP luck. Like I said earlier, if the defense is the same for all the pitchers, why is the BABIP so much different?

 

BABIP is too subjective. How does it differentiate between a ball driven to the corner for a double vs a can of corn ?

 

UZR isn't perfect. And, there are a lot of guys not playing great defense. Lyle Overbay is one. Any catcher not named McKenry are 6 others. Pedro Alvarez will never will a gold glove, etc.

[SouthSideRyan]

There was so much wrong with the Morris trade, even beyond the fact that he was toast.

 

They give up an actual body for him in Rajai Davis. Granted it was just Rajai Davis, but he certainly had a place on the Pirates at the time, judging by the fact that he's still active now(albeit, terrible offensively)

 

They gave up their 9th round draft pick from the prior year's draft. Again, the caveat that Pirates drafts were abysmal back then, and the guy was in Indy ball a year later, but still.

 

They just drafted Daniel [expletive] Moskos as their first round draft pick because they couldn't afford Matt Wieters. They follow this up a month later by trading for Matt Morris and his 10M yearly salary.

[NonProfitCow]

The Pirates as a team have a 5.3 UZR and 1 DRS. Good, but not great. Karstens and Maholm are skating by purely on BABIP luck. Like I said earlier, if the defense is the same for all the pitchers, why is the BABIP so much different?

 

BABIP is too subjective. How does it differentiate between a ball driven to the corner for a double vs a can of corn ?

It doesn't. Here's my post from earlier.

 

Does the defense just give up for, let's say, Kevin Correia? His ERA and ERA+ are both lower than league average this year. He has the 2nd best K/BB on the team. He has the lowest LD% among Pirates starters. He has the best IFFB% on the team. His GB% and HR/FB% is better than Karstens. Yet somehow his BABIP is 50 points higher than Karstens.

[TruffleShuffle]

the matt morris trade was possibly the dumbest trade i've ever seen an mlb organization pull off.

 

Until this past offseason.

 

And even then, I'm not so sure.

 

which one are you thinking of from the offseason?

 

there are a lot of trades that are really dumb but still a little bit understandable. like vernon wells is still a pretty good player (or at least was; this year he's been terrible) so i can understand why they'd want him, even though it's stupid to take on his entire salary while also trading players like napoli and rivera who had value. or trading a really good prospect like scott kazmir for a decent pitcher like victor zambrano. but what on earth was the motivation to trade for matt morris, immediately making him the highest-paid pirate in team history? the team was badly out of contention (like 20 games under .500 or whatever) when they acquired him, his performance had been declining to the point where he was at best a badly overpaid #4/5 starter, and the pirates really had no hope of contending the next year (final year of his contract) when he was due another $10 million. for their efforts the pirates got a handful of near-7.00 ERA starts before releasing morris, and blew almost $14 million on him. and they got rid of rajai davis, who wasn't a particularly good player, but at least was better than replacement level and could get on base a little bit at a cheap price.

 

i can't think of a more inexplicable trade executed by a major league executive.

Edited July 21, 2011 by TruffleShuffle

[Jake]

There was so much wrong with the Morris trade, even beyond the fact that he was toast.

 

They give up an actual body for him in Rajai Davis. Granted it was just Rajai Davis, but he certainly had a place on the Pirates at the time, judging by the fact that he's still active now(albeit, terrible offensively)

 

They gave up their 9th round draft pick from the prior year's draft. Again, the caveat that Pirates drafts were abysmal back then, and the guy was in Indy ball a year later, but still.

 

They just drafted Daniel [expletive] Moskos as their first round draft pick because they couldn't afford Matt Wieters. They follow this up a month later by trading for Matt Morris and his 10M yearly salary.

 

To be clear (Cause the truth is even more zany) Moskos was drafted over Weiters not because he was cheaper, but because he'd reach the majors faster. And, to prove money wasn't the issue, we traded for Morris.

 

The guy who did all of this now works for the Cubs.

[Jake]

the matt morris trade was possibly the dumbest trade i've ever seen an mlb organization pull off.

 

Until this past offseason.

 

And even then, I'm not so sure.

 

which one are you thinking of from the offseason?

 

there are a lot of trades that are really dumb but still a little bit understandable. like vernon wells is still a pretty good player (or at least was; this year he's been terrible) so i can understand why they'd want him, even though it's stupid to take on his entire salary while also trading players like napoli and rivera who had value. or trading a really good prospect like scott kazmir for a decent pitcher like victor zambrano. but what on earth was the motivation to trade for matt morris, immediately making him the highest-paid pirate in team history? the team was badly out of contention (like 20 games under .500 or whatever) when they acquired him, his performance had been declining to the point where he was at best a badly overpaid #4/5 starter, and the pirates really had no hope of contending the next year (final year of his contract) when he was due another $10 million. for their efforts the pirates got a handful of near-7.00 ERA starts before releasing morris, and blew almost $14 million on him. i can't think of a more inexplicable trade executed by a major league executive.

 

As I just said in a previous post, it was to show that Moskos over Weiters was not about money. And, this was the dumbest of all of littlefields trades. Hands down. It's years later and we still cringe at the mention of it.

[SouthSideRyan]

I was thinking of Vernon Wells and his horrendous contract.

[Jake]

I was thinking of Vernon Wells and his horrendous contract.

If Dave Littlefield had the money available, I'm sure he would have found a way to sign a worse contract.

[Jake]

The Pirates as a team have a 5.3 UZR and 1 DRS. Good, but not great. Karstens and Maholm are skating by purely on BABIP luck. Like I said earlier, if the defense is the same for all the pitchers, why is the BABIP so much different?

 

BABIP is too subjective. How does it differentiate between a ball driven to the corner for a double vs a can of corn ?

It doesn't. Here's my post from earlier.

 

Does the defense just give up for, let's say, Kevin Correia? His ERA and ERA+ are both lower than league average this year. He has the 2nd best K/BB on the team. He has the lowest LD% among Pirates starters. He has the best IFFB% on the team. His GB% and HR/FB% is better than Karstens. Yet somehow his BABIP is 50 points higher than Karstens.

 

I think you're too hung up on the stats, and not seeing the forest for the trees. My question, basically, is while he has the lower LD% rate, where are the non-line drives landing? Are the ground balls finding holes aren't? Karstens is up there throwing a lot of junk. A lot this leads to soft popups, soft ground balls, etc. Balls in play, to be sure, but easily handled.

[NCCubFan]

There was so much wrong with the Morris trade, even beyond the fact that he was toast.

 

They give up an actual body for him in Rajai Davis. Granted it was just Rajai Davis, but he certainly had a place on the Pirates at the time, judging by the fact that he's still active now(albeit, terrible offensively)

 

They gave up their 9th round draft pick from the prior year's draft. Again, the caveat that Pirates drafts were abysmal back then, and the guy was in Indy ball a year later, but still.

 

They just drafted Daniel [expletive] Moskos as their first round draft pick because they couldn't afford Matt Wieters. They follow this up a month later by trading for Matt Morris and his 10M yearly salary.

 

To be clear (Cause the truth is even more zany) Moskos was drafted over Weiters not because he was cheaper, but because he'd reach the majors faster. And, to prove money wasn't the issue, we traded for Morris.

 

The guy who did all of this now works for the Cubs.

Reminding us of that almost seems like trolling. :twisted:

[TruffleShuffle]

http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/pirates-starting-to-pay-attention-to-themselves,20985/

 

According to sources, the Pirates are not the only ones beginning to pay attention, as the team’s first winning season in 18 years has become a welcome distraction to locals who would otherwise be worrying about their own existence in Pittsburgh.

 

=D>

[erik316wttn]

This, honestly, is one of the worst calls I've ever seen, if not THE worst. Right at the end of the highlight...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/SweetSpot/post/_/id/14246/we-have-a-new-worst-call-ever

 

We don't need replay WHY, exactly?

 

This was also in the "other games" thread, but I thought it was appropriate here, too.

[TruffleShuffle]

he didn't get that much of him. really there's no reason for a catcher to sweep tag. it's a bad call because it was wrong and you can't make that call if the guy actually tagged him, but i've seen way worse calls than that. hell bruce froemming was good for 5 worse calls than that every season.