Manny Ramirez retires

[Illini Iceman]

Hall of Fame, yes or no?

 

based on the numbers he produced, definitely. considering that he's been caught using PEDs twice now, it's pretty reasonable to think that he's been using throughout most of his major league career. so would he have been a HoF player without them? hard to say.

 

but for most of his career they weren't banned by the league and everyone was playing under the same lack of rules, so based on that i'd vote for him.

 

Hasn't he actually gotten caught 3 times now?

 

He got caught from that 2003 anonymous testing that ended up not being so anonymous, then in 09 he got caught with the masking agent, and now. He would have only gotten punished for 2 of them but 3 different times over an 8 year period he was caught using PED's. I'd say its pretty likely he was using them his entire career, putting all of his numebrs in jeopardy.

 

He's gonna have a hard time making the HOF. If a proven steroid user makes the HOF, that will open the floodgates and then he'll get in. But until that happens he'll be standing on the sidelines like McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro and the rest.

 

i'd say bonds (and to some extent clemens) are different cases because the numbers are so overwhelmingly good. bonds is the home run king, #3 all time in OPS+ and #2 in WAR among position players. clemens is #2 in WAR among pitchers and #10 in ERA+. i'd say you could make an easy case that even without PED use, those guys were HoF-caliber players. whereas some of the more borderline players - mcgwire, sosa, palmeiro - may not have been HoF players without "help."

 

I think you're right. I also don't think the committee is going to see it that way.

 

If they can keep an extremely deserving, decent guy out for kicking his heels a few times, what chance does an [expletive] who cheated have?

 

Bonds will get in the hall of fame when hell freezes over. No way the writers let him in with the combination of the steroid issue and the crappy way he treated the media all those years.

[javy knows my name]

I think you're right. I also don't think the committee is going to see it that way.

 

If they can keep an extremely deserving, decent guy out for kicking his heels a few times, what chance does an [expletive] who cheated have?

 

Bonds will get in the hall of fame when hell freezes over. No way the writers let him in with the combination of the steroid issue and the crappy way he treated the media all those years.

 

Man, I wish I'd thought of that

[Rob]

It may not be in our lifetime but someday Manny, Bonds, McGwire, and all the other people who used steroids will be inducted into the Hall of Fame. 100 years from now when steroids don't seem like a big deal (because of genetic modification or whatever crazy [expletive] players are doing to cheat) the Committee will just shrug its collective shoulders and put up their plaques.

[Sammy Sofa]

It may not be in our lifetime but someday Manny, Bonds, McGwire, and all the other people who used steroids will be inducted into the Hall of Fame. 100 years from now when steroids don't seem like a big deal (because of genetic modification or whatever crazy [expletive] players are doing to cheat) the Committee will just shrug its collective shoulders and put up their plaques.

 

It won't be because of cheating; it'll be because the evolution of PED's will make our currently moronic histrionics seem completely archaic.

[Outshined_One]

You mean it's not natural for a 38 year old to be blasting 450 foot bombs to straight away center in a National League Divisional Series?

 

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

 

So does that mean we can stop automatically assuming Aaron was "all natural?" Because that would be awesome.

 

Oddly enough, Aaron's career arc matches up surprisingly well with other known PED users. Steroids and other PEDs were available when he was playing, so it wouldn't be particularly surprising if it turned out he used.

[Sammy Sofa]

You mean it's not natural for a 38 year old to be blasting 450 foot bombs to straight away center in a National League Divisional Series?

 

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

 

So does that mean we can stop automatically assuming Aaron was "all natural?" Because that would be awesome.

 

Oddly enough, Aaron's career arc matches up surprisingly well with other known PED users. Steroids and other PEDs were available when he was playing, so it wouldn't be particularly surprising if it turned out he used.

 

On his own team at the time, no less.

[Backtobanks]

You mean it's not natural for a 38 year old to be blasting 450 foot bombs to straight away center in a National League Divisional Series?

 

Not that I'm bitter or anything.

 

So does that mean we can stop automatically assuming Aaron was "all natural?" Because that would be awesome.

 

Oddly enough, Aaron's career arc matches up surprisingly well with other known PED users. Steroids and other PEDs were available when he was playing, so it wouldn't be particularly surprising if it turned out he used.

 

That's the sad part of the steroid era, you start to question everybody's accomplishments. Are they clean or is it just they didn't get caught?