Cashner being moved to the bullpen and may be called up

[davearm2]

If you ascribe to the theory that every pitcher has X number of pitches in his arm, then it makes complete sense that as many of those X pitches as possible be thrown to bigleague hitters rather than AAA hitters.

 

Presently there's no room in the bigleague rotation, but there is room in the bigleague bullpen.

 

It's pretty much the opposite of "completely illogical and completely desperate", actually.

 

 

 

Wow... if that isn't one of the best examples I've ever seen of pulling an argument out of your ass just to argue a crappy perspective... :-)) :-))

Hey bud the wear and tear a guy puts on his arm is the same pitching in AAA as it is in MLB. If Cashner is ready to get bigleague hitters out, then keeping him in the minors is just wasting miles.

 

Do you understand that if he wants to be a starter, his arm is going to need to be stretched out? Cashner only pitched 120 innings the last 2 seasons combined.

 

Cashner. needs. innings.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=price-004dav

[17 Seconds]

Oh, so David Price did it, so just throw all other practices out the window.

 

Seriously dude?

[David]

Let's try to turn a dominating relief prospect into a starter.

 

Step 1 - let him dominate as a starter for a few starts

 

Step 2 - turn him back into a reliever so he can get up to the big league team (and fill a hole on a mediocre team) faster

[17 Seconds]

Is Andrew Cashner our best startng pitching prospect since Prior?

[Little Slide Rooter]

Is Andrew Cashner our best startng pitching prospect since Prior?

 

Angel Guzman was pretty hyped up. I dont think too much hype ever surrounded Rich Hill. I guess the only other candidates are Mark Pawalek and Jeff Samardjiza.

[imb]

Is Andrew Cashner our best startng pitching prospect since Prior?

 

bobby brownlie

[imb]

just kidding

[Little Slide Rooter]

Really what they should have done if they were itching to call up a prospect is call up J Jax. If by the trade deadline it looks like were out of it, trade Lilly and bring up Cashner to the rotation. Jax looks like he could be very good, but Cashner looks like he could be somthing special, and its a shame that they're doing this. The way I see it, Sean Marshall has already estblished himself at set up, and if they want a 7th inning guy, they should give Stevens a chance to earn the job, and if that doesnt work out, call up Jax.

[davearm2]

Oh, so David Price did it, so just throw all other practices out the window.

 

Seriously dude?

What "all other practices"?

 

Scenario A, Cashner remains in AAA and throws another 80 IP as a starter in 2010.

 

Scenario B, Cashner comes up to MLB and throws another 40 IP as a reliever in 2010.

 

Why would Scenario A inherently prepare the guy better for the MLB rotation in 2011 and beyond?

 

Getting acclimated to the bigleagues may very well be more valuable longterm than logging more IP in the minors. Meanwhile, he's helping the big club this year.

[davearm2]

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the "all other practices" you mention are precisely the ones that forward-thinking organizations like the Rays and Red Sox (you know, the clubs folks are clamoring for the Cubs to emulate) are rejecting as flawed and outdated.

[Gmoney08]

Oh, so David Price did it, so just throw all other practices out the window.

 

Seriously dude?

 

Adam Wainwright

 

Francisco Liriano

 

Johan Santana

 

Pedro Martinez

 

Carlos Zambrano

 

David Price

 

 

I dont think it really is that bad of a career move to bring a young pitcher up out of the bullpen, especially if there is a huge need for the MLB team.

 

Theres a couple guys like Marmol and Papelbon who ended up good as relievers and ended up staying relievers as well. I guess we will never know how their careers would have panned out as starters. Hughes and Joba in NY are kind of back and forth on starting/relieving right now as well and itll be interesting where there careers end up.

 

I would not mind at all if Jay Jackson and Andrew Cashner were brought up get Major League experience and solidify this bullpen for the remainder of the year. Theres no doubt in my mind both could be good to very good in short inning spurts in the MLB right now, and with the way Marshall/Marmol are pitching if Cashner/Jackson pitch well that could improve our team immensely.

[Cubswin11]

Oh, so David Price did it, so just throw all other practices out the window.

 

Seriously dude?

 

Adam Wainwright

 

Francisco Liriano

 

Johan Santana

 

Pedro Martinez

 

Carlos Zambrano

 

David Price

 

 

I dont think it really is that bad of a career move to bring a young pitcher up out of the bullpen, especially if there is a huge need for the MLB team.

 

Theres a couple guys like Marmol and Papelbon who ended up good as relievers and ended up staying relievers as well. I guess we will never know how their careers would have panned out as starters. Hughes and Joba in NY are kind of back and forth on starting/relieving right now as well and itll be interesting where there careers end up.

 

I would not mind at all if Jay Jackson and Andrew Cashner were brought up get Major League experience and solidify this bullpen for the remainder of the year. Theres no doubt in my mind both could be good to very good in short inning spurts in the MLB right now, and with the way Marshall/Marmol are pitching if Cashner/Jackson pitch well that could improve our team immensely.

A few to add to the list:

Phil Hughes (started as SP then to BP then back to SP)

Clay Buchholz (has been moved between pen and bullpen with Bard being in a similar spot)

Neftali Feliz (provides a good precedent to Cashner, top arm in the minors, major league needs him in the bullpen so use him there with the ultimate goal that he will end up a starter in the next 1-2 years)

[Guest]

He threw 100 innings last season. How the hell is he supposed to hold up as a starter if his career high is 100 IP?

 

And he's been moved to the AAA bullpen. A lot of your comparisons are guys who started and went to the bullpen after being promoted to the big leagues.

[Outshined_One]

He threw 100 innings last season. How the hell is he supposed to hold up as a starter if his career high is 100 IP?

 

And he's been moved to the AAA bullpen..

 

...and is still working on a changeup...and has experience as a reliever with TCU...and would likely be behind Marmol, Marshall, and whoever in the rotation moves to the bullpen...hell, throw Grabow and Howry into that mix while you're at it...

 

This team doesn't need yet another relief pitcher. The only problem with the bullpen is that we have a manager who is wholly incompetent in using it. I feel like we're back to the days when the Cubs needed to Dusty-proof the 25 man so he wouldn't lead off Lenny Harris every freaking day.

[Rob]

All of those guys had been starters their entire careers until that point and had built up arm strength, as well as had time to work on secondary pitches.

 

Highest IP number reached in a single season by those guys before their callups:

 

Wainwright - 182.0

Martinez - 177.1

Liriano - 167.2

Santana - 160.1

Zambrano - 153.1

Price - 133.1 (college junior)

 

Cashner - 100.1

 

And let's not forget the fact that most of those guys also had 2-4 times as many total innings as Cashner.

 

Cashner can probably help our pen this season. But let's not pretend he doesn't need the innings... There's something like a 0% chance this move doesn't hurt his ability to start all next season and stay healthy.

[CubColtPacer]

Oh, so David Price did it, so just throw all other practices out the window.

 

Seriously dude?

What "all other practices"?

 

Scenario A, Cashner remains in AAA and throws another 80 IP as a starter in 2010.

 

Scenario B, Cashner comes up to MLB and throws another 40 IP as a reliever in 2010.

 

Why would Scenario A inherently prepare the guy better for the MLB rotation in 2011 and beyond?

 

Getting acclimated to the bigleagues may very well be more valuable longterm than logging more IP in the minors. Meanwhile, he's helping the big club this year.

 

Scenario B is problematic for 2011 because of how much they'll have to baby him next year. He will be a 150-160 inning pitcher before they'll have to shut him down. That's putting a strain on next year's team.

 

There are definitely advantages to Scenario B. But the Cubs could have had their cake and ate it too in this scenario. They could have let Cashner start for another month or two and then brought him up. He would have still been able to be a factor in a possible stretch run while building up that inning count for the year which would allow him to be a possible 175-185 inning pitcher next year. They also would have avoided any possible Super 2 issues.

 

The horrible logic of why Jackson was moved from rotation to bullpen to rotation and now Cashner from the rotation to the bullpen is probably worse than the actual move itself though. It gives the 2010 Cubs possible help in return for a very suboptimal situation coming up in 2011. It hurts Cashner's development of his changeup and his ability to show that he can keep his stuff deep into ballgames a little bit, although I feel those questions have been mostly decided already.

 

Maybe the biggest problem is what happens next. The Cubs haven't given players like Stevens or Parker a chance even after they impressed in the minors (Stevens is in the majors but hasn't really gotten the chance to grab that right-handed setup role yet that the Cubs seem to be looking for and probably won't get that chance if Cashner does come up). Jackson apparently impressed them out of the bullpen but got sent back to the rotation anyway.

 

If Cashner comes up to the major league bullpen, is he in a no win scenario for becoming a starter? Pitch too well and they'll want to keep him there for fear of losing a dominant reliever and pitch badly and he might never really get that chance to start. We know they want Cashner to be a starter, but if they have changed their minds so many times despite getting the results they wanted, then what keeps their mind from changing again?

 

If Cashner comes up and pitches this year, becomes a starter for 150-160 innings next year, then hits 180 the year after that, the move becomes a fine one that was just slightly mistimed from being an ideal situation. Between the risk of what may happen, having the ideal situation being so easy to implement, and that ideal situation still giving most everything the team wants to accomplish with this move, it still makes it a rather poor decision.

[Guest]

So that's 8 guys who never relieved in the minors, and one that's a Cub. Not doing a good job of proving your point.

[CubColtPacer]

All of those guys had been starters their entire careers until that point and had built up arm strength, as well as had time to work on secondary pitches.

 

Highest IP number reached in a single season by those guys before their callups:

 

Wainwright - 182.0

Martinez - 177.1

Liriano - 167.2

Santana - 160.1

Zambrano - 153.1

Price - 133.1 (college junior)

 

Cashner - 100.1

 

And let's not forget the fact that most of those guys also had 2-4 times as many total innings as Cashner.

 

Cashner can probably help our pen this season. But let's not pretend he doesn't need the innings... There's something like a 0% chance this move doesn't hurt his ability to start all next season and stay healthy.

 

Cashner did throw in the fall league last year so those 19 innings probably need to be added to the total. It still is too low of a number to be the highest number he's seen before entering a season where he would be projected to be in the Opening Day rotation.

[17 Seconds]

Adam Wainwright

 

Francisco Liriano

 

Johan Santana

 

Pedro Martinez

 

Carlos Zambrano

 

David Price

 

 

A few to add to the list:

Phil Hughes (started as SP then to BP then back to SP)

Clay Buchholz (has been moved between pen and bullpen with Bard being in a similar spot)

Neftali Feliz (provides a good precedent to Cashner, top arm in the minors, major league needs

 

Okay, seriously... did you guys even read my posts? I don't think you did.

 

Almost every one of those guys had plenty of innings as a starter. Wainwright had several years throwing over 150 innings before they turned him into a reliever. Liriano had back to back season with over 150 innings before he relieved. Santana threw over 150 innings the year before he relieved. Zambrano had already done it twice. Hughes had done it. Buchholz not only did it, but he was never even moved to the pen. I don't know where you're getting that from. Feliz hasn't done it, but it appears he isn't just temporarily relieving. He seems locked in there, at least for this season.

 

So yeah, you guys must not have read my post. I'd have had no problem with moving Cashner to the pen at some point this season if he had sufficient innings as a starter, but he doesn't.

 

It's the fact that he doesn't have innings a starter. Something almost all those other guys had when they were sent to the pen.

[17 Seconds]

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the "all other practices" you mention are precisely the ones that forward-thinking organizations like the Rays and Red Sox (you know, the clubs folks are clamoring for the Cubs to emulate) are rejecting as flawed and outdated.

 

Who are all these top prospect SP that the Rays and Red Sox moved to the pen without having innings as a starter? Price and.....

[davearm2]

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the "all other practices" you mention are precisely the ones that forward-thinking organizations like the Rays and Red Sox (you know, the clubs folks are clamoring for the Cubs to emulate) are rejecting as flawed and outdated.

 

Who are all these top prospect SP that the Rays and Red Sox moved to the pen without having innings as a starter? Price and.....

Dude quit while you're behind already. You sound like Dusty with this "that's how they've always done it" logic.

[Guest]

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the "all other practices" you mention are precisely the ones that forward-thinking organizations like the Rays and Red Sox (you know, the clubs folks are clamoring for the Cubs to emulate) are rejecting as flawed and outdated.

 

Who are all these top prospect SP that the Rays and Red Sox moved to the pen without having innings as a starter? Price and.....

Dude quit while you're behind already. You sound like Dusty with this "that's how they've always done it" logic.

lol @ totally ignoring all the evidence provided against your points.

[Guest]

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the "all other practices" you mention are precisely the ones that forward-thinking organizations like the Rays and Red Sox (you know, the clubs folks are clamoring for the Cubs to emulate) are rejecting as flawed and outdated.

 

Who are all these top prospect SP that the Rays and Red Sox moved to the pen without having innings as a starter? Price and.....

Dude quit while you're behind already. You sound like Dusty with this "that's how they've always done it" logic.

 

Why don't you address the previous post he made?

[UK1679666180]

Comparisons to where the Rays were when they needed Price in '08 and where the Cubs are right now are completely different situations...

 

1)It was mid-Sept. & Durham's season had already concluded so there was no other option. It'll likely be June once Cashner makes it to the majors.

 

2)The Rays had the best record in the AL East and was battling HFA throughout the playoffs, while the Cubs are mediocre at best saved by playing in the worst or second worst division in MLB.

 

3)Already mentioned as far as Price's collegiate career as an established starter compared to the Cubs trying to turn Cashner into a starter now delaying that process for something unlikely to occur.

 

I just hate all these panic moves, his failure to address the pen in the off-season shouldn't be forgotten because of an injury to the oft-injured setup reliever.

[soapy]

How can people not see the difference between the Cashner situation and that of Wainright, Price, etc? Jeez. The guy needs to get innings as a starter for several reasons that have already been listed (stretching out, working on his changeup, etc).

 

I didn't mind the move with Jackson so much because he has plenty of experience as a starter. I don't get doing it with Cashner (at least right now). Especially considering how much they are raving about how well Jackson did out of the pen. The whole thing is just strange and reeks of them being completely clueless.