Re: Theriot should be shopped

[Clem Fandango]

You clearly haven't been paying attention to the potential juggernaut they've been slowly building

 

The key word being "slowly".

 

Indeed, one that they've been building for what... 12 years now? :)

 

But they're on the brink right now. Their system is stacked with talent. They're not gonna win this year, but they might shock some teams in 2011. Just looking at their list young players makes me envious.

[jersey cubs fan]

You clearly haven't been paying attention to the potential juggernaut they've been slowly building

 

The key word being "slowly".

 

Indeed, one that they've been building for what... 12 years now? :)

 

But they're on the brink right now. Their system is stacked with talent. They're not gonna win this year, but they might shock some teams in 2011. Just looking at their list young players makes me envious.

 

Except they are still in the AL East.

[Clem Fandango]

You clearly haven't been paying attention to the potential juggernaut they've been slowly building

 

The key word being "slowly".

 

Indeed, one that they've been building for what... 12 years now? :)

 

But they're on the brink right now. Their system is stacked with talent. They're not gonna win this year, but they might shock some teams in 2011. Just looking at their list young players makes me envious.

 

Except they are still in the AL East.

 

So were the Rays. Whatever, it's not important, and this thread is getting derailed. My bad.

 

Theriot needs to go :)

[A New Era]

 

Take away Ramirez, DLee, Soriano and the Cubs start to look more like the Orioles or Royals than the Rays.

 

 

Dlee and Ramirez aren't likely to be around when the next "core" hits it's prime. Soriano might due to his contract but I'm just saying I as a fan would be more excited if we were in the "firesale mode" like the Marlins were and netted some really good young players. Not that I won't be excited anyway but I just mean I wouldn't mind a few rough seasons if I knew things were gonna get better, alot better.

[jersey cubs fan]

So were the Rays. Whatever, it's not important, and this thread is getting derailed. My bad.

 

Theriot needs to go :)

 

Yep, and after one year they were back to third place, 19 out of first and 11 out of the wild card despite 1 more win than the Cubs.

 

You should seperate lusting over their talent with wishing you were in their position.

 

 

The Cubs are in a fantastic position, the biggest fish in a small pond, that's much harder to fix than the level of talent.

[Post Count Padder]

Management overrates him and loves him. If they try to trade him, they'll ask for more than he's worth and no team will bite. And even if we do trade him for something realistic, that return won't be great.

 

I'm fine with keeping him. We don't have any great in house options to replace him, and I'd personally rather keep Castro in the minors one more year, rather than rush him. He's barely played above A ball and people are calling for him to start on the big club. Let's let him start at AA next year, see what he can do there and at AAA and go from there. He's a special talent, I'd rather not rush him.

 

And Theriot isn't horrible. He's not anything special but he can get the job done. Keep him for one more year and shift him to second next year or explore other options.

[A-Cal]

I am down for Theriot departing for greener or even browner pastures. The closer the 2010 seasons gets, the more excited I become for the trading deadline. We have some nice choice meat on our squad that could really net us some nice chips for the future. I would love to see Lilly, Lee, Theriot, Ramirez, Zambrano, Dempster, and maybe even Soto on the block right now. We have a few young kids in the minors who look promising. A couple of them, barring a first baseman, almost fill up the diamond. It can be done, and we can be good again sooner than you think. The only difference being that maybe this time there will be a couple of young guys acquired who are top-flight instead of just slightly above solid for their position. I, like some of you, am honestly pretty tired of our core.

[Clem Fandango]

So were the Rays. Whatever, it's not important, and this thread is getting derailed. My bad.

 

Theriot needs to go :)

 

Yep, and after one year they were back to third place, 19 out of first and 11 out of the wild card despite 1 more win than the Cubs.

 

You should seperate lusting over their talent with wishing you were in their position.

 

 

The Cubs are in a fantastic position, the biggest fish in a small pond, that's much harder to fix than the level of talent.

 

I suppose you're right.

[Guest]

Article

 

Definitely not going to happen, he's the cubs version of kirk hinrich. Management likes him too much and wont deal him. Even if Starlin bats .500 in spring training and makes the big league club, the cubs would then shift theriot to 2nd. I dont like theriot either and i think his range and noodle arm costs us on defense but i dont see the cubs trading him away.

 

I can't agree that it 'definitely' won't happen, except in the context of today. I think Tim maybe jumped the gun at this point, as this is much more a reality in July or November of 2010. But production and promise will trump heart. If Castro shows in 2010 at whatever level he plays that he is the SS of the future, then Theriot's days are numbered no matter how much heart he brings.

 

The only way I see Theriot sticking should Castro emerge is by moving to 2B full-time. But the smarter move is to shop him at the deadline or next season.

If you wait another year, you'll really get nothing in return for Theriot. His primary value lies in his production/cost ratio. That changes with every year of arbitration. At this point, he's still an attractive option to small market teams. Next year...not as much.

[soapy]

I am absolutely on board with exploring trade options with Theriot. I think this coupled with moving someone like Zambrano makes quite a bit of sense at this juncture. I don't think the team necessarily needs to be blown up though. I think you can move, for example, Theriot and Zambrano and still be very competitive in 2010 depending on their replacements (via trade and/or FA). With the Cubs budget and current roster, I don't think they need to start over to put this team in the mix.

 

They would clearly need bounce-back seasons from guys like Soto, Soriano and to a lesser extent Marmol (none of which are sure things). If those things can happen and some reasonable moves are made to replace Zambrano (for example, something along the lines of Hughes as mentioned in Tim's article) they could still field a potential contender in 2010. They then have the money to go after someone like Bay or make a trade for a big bat mid-season (Beltran?).

[CUBZ99]

I am down for Theriot departing for greener or even browner pastures. The closer the 2010 seasons gets, the more excited I become for the trading deadline. We have some nice choice meat on our squad that could really net us some nice chips for the future. I would love to see Lilly, Lee, Theriot, Ramirez, Zambrano, Dempster, and maybe even Soto on the block right now. We have a few young kids in the minors who look promising. A couple of them, barring a first baseman, almost fill up the diamond. It can be done, and we can be good again sooner than you think. The only difference being that maybe this time there will be a couple of young guys acquired who are top-flight instead of just slightly above solid for their position. I, like some of you, am honestly pretty tired of our core.

 

I would rather see the list of those players playing out of their mind and the Cubs 10+ games ahead in the division by the trade deadline. I think too many people are overreacting to the 2009 season. Sure it was a bad season, but I think going into 2009 the Cubs were the clear favorites to win the division.

 

In regard to Theriot, would someone please post or give me a link to all of these things he has been saying about Bradley in the media? I read his interview with Muskat on Cubs.com and don't remember him saying anything terrible about Bradley. Theriot always struck me as the type of guy that would stay out of that type of nonsense.

 

Either way, I think Tim is right. Ideally, the Cubs should be fielding offers for him and finding out what they could get. I'm sure that there is some team that would overvalue him, and give the Cubs a decent return.

Edited December 22, 2009 by CUBZ99

[soapy]

Yeah, I think I've pretty much missed Theriot's alleged comments as well. I'm still down with trading him though.

[Guest]

Both of my articles the past two days center around trading players whose perceived value around the league is greater than their actual value to the team at this point. Zambrano has been in decline for quite some time but is still perceived as an ace around the league. Theriot is still viewed as a valuable starting shortstop around the league (and we have a few guys that can provide nearly the same value, which diminishes his current value to the Cubs).

 

When you find yourself in these situations, you have to take advantage of them.

 

I'm of the opinion that the Cubs are a likely playoff team as things stand today. However, I'd still make these moves because I think that both players are very replaceable at this time and we'd probably increase the overall talent level of the team by making the moves. It would be perceived by fans and media as giving up on 2010, but I think we could potentially better our competitive position and help build for the future by making the moves.

[Old Style]

I'm all for trading Theriot and wouldn't be hurt if DLee was traded or not re-signed. I'm not really anxious to see Aramis go, though. I guess I remember the parade of third basemen we witnessed before he arrived and am scared that would happen all over again. We'll see if/when Vitters ever makes it to Wrigley. I am intrigued by the thought of transitioning Aramis to first as he ages and is no longer an above average 3B.

[CUBZ99]

Both of my articles the past two days center around trading players whose perceived value around the league is greater than their actual value to the team at this point. Zambrano has been in decline for quite some time but is still perceived as an ace around the league. Theriot is still viewed as a valuable starting shortstop around the league (and we have a few guys that can provide nearly the same value, which diminishes his current value to the Cubs).

 

When you find yourself in these situations, you have to take advantage of them.

 

I'm of the opinion that the Cubs are a likely playoff team as things stand today. However, I'd still make these moves because I think that both players are very replaceable at this time and we'd probably increase the overall talent level of the team by making the moves. It would be perceived by fans and media as giving up on 2010, but I think we could potentially better our competitive position and help build for the future by making the moves.

 

Hendry's MO has never been to trade a player at his peak value. In fact, DeRosa, is one of the only situations that I can think of where Hendry did this and DeRosa was moved because of financial reasons.

 

Unfortunately with the Yankees getting Vasquez today, the list of places to trade Z to (and get him to waive his NTC) is likely pretty small. Angels? White Sox? Mets? I can't see many other teams willing to take on an $18MM year contract.

[Sever82]

Unfortunately with the Yankees getting Vasquez today, the list of places to trade Z to (and get him to waive his NTC) is likely pretty small. Angels? White Sox? Mets? I can't see many other teams willing to take on an $18MM year contract.

 

You probably can't move Z and i'm with that because maybe he stays as your Ace for the future or maybe he plays some more of those years on his contract and increases his value so that you can trade him later. But in the case of Ramirez, i think you can trade him to the Angels right now and get a pretty good package out of it since they've been wanted Ramirez for the longest and dont have much faith in Wood.

 

As for DLee, if the Cubs are clear to him that they wont resign him and they're trying to rebuild, as loyal and professional as DLee is, he'll probably waive his NTC for the right situation. Which could be to a team like the Red Sox or a West Coast team. My Ideal situation with Lee would be to move him to Detroit with a player or two for Miguel Cabrera. I think the Tigers would definitely do a trade like that because it would give them a very productive vet with only year left on his contract and also allow them to free themselves from the long term committment they have Cabrera. But ultimately Lee wont wave his NTC for Detroit, unless he considers it close enought to Chicago and his home, that he would cave in.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't see the Cubs moving people, I see them sticking with what they got, adding some marginal shmoe, and trying to win the division with 85-88 wins, which is entirely possible given the competition.

 

I do expect them to do something before February to actually add excitement for the ticket buyers. I thought there was a chance that could have been the dumping of Bradley and hiring of Sandberg, but now that Bradley has gone about as bad as expected and they aren't getting any substantial positive buzz out of it, there will have to be some sort of name added to make that theory work.

[Sever82]

I don't see the Cubs moving people, I see them sticking with what they got, adding some marginal shmoe, and trying to win the division with 85-88 wins, which is entirely possible given the competition.

 

I do expect them to do something before February to actually add excitement for the ticket buyers. I thought there was a chance that could have been the dumping of Bradley and hiring of Sandberg, but now that Bradley has gone about as bad as expected and they aren't getting any substantial positive buzz out of it, there will have to be some sort of name added to make that theory work.

 

I think they'll make moves but not a big splash. There is no big spash players out there unless they sign holliday and bay. Its true though, as much as i want them to make moves like acquiring Cabrera from the Tigers. Ultimately i think they'll let their vets play out their contracts unless the cubs really suck before the deadline or are way out of it. Hendry is not smart enough to trade players are their peak. To be honest the only reason Derosa was traded at his peak was because (I'm speculating) Hendry thought he had a Peavy trade in the works and was going to flip those prospects. As much as he wants to play the money card, i think Hendry honestly though he was going to get peavy.

[davell]

First off, I like what the Orioles are doing. They are definitely building up some great, young talent. That said, they are in the AL East, which has 2 teams that are ALWAYS going to be spending money and staying in contention. There also is another young team, which already has proven themselves to an extent that they O's will have to deal with, in Tampa. Bottom line, I wouldn't trade places with them for anything, for these reasons alone.

 

Z has no place to go, now that the Yanks have acquired Vasquez. And considering the return the Braves got, I'm quite happy Z is still a Cub. Getting either Lee or Aramis to waive their NTC's would be hard to do first of all and secondly, what exactly would they bring in return as it is? Our farm system is on the upswing right now and it's certainly possible that Vitters could be Aramis' longterm replacement anyway. We don't have a good 1B prospect coming up, but there's always the upcoming draft to address that. I just don't see the advantage to trading either of them because it hurts us shortterm, where we still have a chance to make the playoffs with them......

 

As far as Theriot goes, I think he SHOULD be dealt as well right now. He'll lose value each year from now on and he's definitely not a "must have" guy for us to make the playoffs. Granted, I don't see his value as a whole hell of alot anyway, but in this case, getting something seems to be better than getting nothing.

[TheDude]

Article

 

Definitely not going to happen, he's the cubs version of kirk hinrich. Management likes him too much and wont deal him. Even if Starlin bats .500 in spring training and makes the big league club, the cubs would then shift theriot to 2nd. I dont like theriot either and i think his range and noodle arm costs us on defense but i dont see the cubs trading him away.

 

I can't agree that it 'definitely' won't happen, except in the context of today. I think Tim maybe jumped the gun at this point, as this is much more a reality in July or November of 2010. But production and promise will trump heart. If Castro shows in 2010 at whatever level he plays that he is the SS of the future, then Theriot's days are numbered no matter how much heart he brings.

 

The only way I see Theriot sticking should Castro emerge is by moving to 2B full-time. But the smarter move is to shop him at the deadline or next season.

If you wait another year, you'll really get nothing in return for Theriot. His primary value lies in his production/cost ratio. That changes with every year of arbitration. At this point, he's still an attractive option to small market teams. Next year...not as much.

 

I agree. But the front office has to weigh that against the ability to win in 2010. Do they trust either Blanco or Castro to reach league average production at SS? Probably not. The 2010 lineup has few high-predictability-production players compared to many fingers-crossed-production players that I doubt they remove Theriot right now.

 

But if Castro is the real deal and shows it during ST and the first half of 2010 at any level, then maybe it's enough to consider a mid-season move of Theriot.

[Pushfrog98]

You clearly haven't been paying attention to the potential juggernaut they've been slowly building

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/9544/1169579-juggernaut_bitch_super.jpg

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't see the Cubs moving people, I see them sticking with what they got, adding some marginal shmoe, and trying to win the division with 85-88 wins, which is entirely possible given the competition.

 

I do expect them to do something before February to actually add excitement for the ticket buyers. I thought there was a chance that could have been the dumping of Bradley and hiring of Sandberg, but now that Bradley has gone about as bad as expected and they aren't getting any substantial positive buzz out of it, there will have to be some sort of name added to make that theory work.

 

I think they'll make moves but not a big splash.

 

I wouldn't predict a splash either. Although if they did it wouldn't surprise me. They've had mostly negative PR this offseason and still need to sell tickets in February in a down economy. I'm just thinking they add some names that they can figure out a way to sell.

 

Somebody like Mark DeRosa isn't a big splash, but he's a name that could be sold.

[Sever82]

I don't see the Cubs moving people, I see them sticking with what they got, adding some marginal shmoe, and trying to win the division with 85-88 wins, which is entirely possible given the competition.

 

I do expect them to do something before February to actually add excitement for the ticket buyers. I thought there was a chance that could have been the dumping of Bradley and hiring of Sandberg, but now that Bradley has gone about as bad as expected and they aren't getting any substantial positive buzz out of it, there will have to be some sort of name added to make that theory work.

 

I think they'll make moves but not a big splash.

 

I wouldn't predict a splash either. Although if they did it wouldn't surprise me. They've had mostly negative PR this offseason and still need to sell tickets in February in a down economy. I'm just thinking they add some names that they can figure out a way to sell.

 

Somebody like Mark DeRosa isn't a big splash, but he's a name that could be sold.

 

I can definitely see the Derosa signing. And if they lose out on Capps, i can see the cubs making a trade with Cleveland for wood if the indians ate up some of that salary. Bringing Wood back would bring a huge buzz back for the fans.

[Sever82]

Speaking of Theriot, what about exploring a trade with the braves that send Theriot and maybe a prospect for Yunel Escobar? Didn't the braves organization and Escobar have a rocky relationship last year?

[jersey cubs fan]

I would be genuinely surprised by a return of Wood (that's what she said).

 

DeRosa can be sold as the super utility guy again, platooning with Fukudome in RF, getting time at 2B and 3B. And he could be cheap depending on where this market goes. I don't see a Wood trade working, and since his contract is tied to games finished and the Cubs are likely to be sticking with Marmol as closer, there could be issues.