Point/Counterpoint: Ron Santo and the HOF

[CubinNY]

You cannot penalize a guy for where he played his home games. Helton will be in the HOF someday, so if that's your comp, you lose.

 

Why can't you take into account where a guy plays his home games?

Because the player had nothing to do with his surroundings. It's not like Wrigley is a great hitters park.

[SouthSideRyan]

You cannot penalize a guy for where he played his home games. Helton will be in the HOF someday, so if that's your comp, you lose.

 

Why can't you take into account where a guy plays his home games?

Because the player had nothing to do with his surroundings. It's not like Wrigley is a great hitters park.

 

It was.

[OleMissCub]

Rarely brought up (in fact I've never heard it mentioned), but I think one reason why his road splits weren't as good as they should have been might have to do with the fact that he was a diabetic. Traveling as a diabetic in modern times can be tricky, much less doing so in the 60's and trying to hide it from everyone. Just a thought.

 

except by Truffle 2 posts above yours...

 

:wink:

 

I think he was talking about his disease in general. I was referring specifically to being on the road with that illness. It's a real pain in the ass. I'm friends with a guy with juv diabetes and he always has to have a little cooler with him for his insulin if we go on trips or whatever.

[wekse]

this thread title makes me think of this:

 

John Fitzsimmons: [alternately to Sheila and camera] Well Sheila, I guess even you and your liberal cronies have found the light at the end of love with our beloved president. The intellectuals have been much agitated and now, having gotten the presidency by exploiting the problems they themselves have manufactured, he has done his best to fuel their anxieties about him. Sheila. Will you and your pack of bleeding heart liberals never learn that expanding welfare roles only accelerate inflation and inevitably hurt most those they purport to help?

Sheila Hamilton: Why John, you old stick in the mud.

[to camera]

Sheila Hamilton: I've been listening to that horse **** of yours for months, and you can take that crap and blow it out your ass. And for good measure, sit on THIS

[flips the bird]

Sheila Hamilton: , John.

[BeerHere]

anyone who argues that he shouldn't be in the HoF doesn't have a leg to stand on

 

This is not funny, but I can't help but giggle a little.

[Backtobanks]

You should definitely take into account where a guy plays his home games, but too often people look at home/away splits, take the away #s and consider that a guy's true ability.

 

Additionally, there isn't just one factor in looking at the splits. You have the hitter's park situation, but it's also a comfort level. Players shouldn't be penalized for being much better when playing in their home city. The entire discrepancy in Santo's #s can't be chalked up to Wrigley's small gaps. He couldn't have hit that many HRs in the first few rows. There's also something to be said for a hitter adapting his game to fit his home park. If Santo saw the value in getting under a pitch and letting the wind carry it out, then good for him.

 

Again that's not to say to discount the Wrigley in the 60s factor, but I don't think it's as big of an issue as his detractors make it out to be.

 

If you're talking about home field advantage, look at the short right field fence in Yankee Stadium where Ruth hit a ton of his homers. Look at County Stadium in Milwaukee where Aaron hit a bunch of his homers. All any player can do is excel at his position given the conditions of the time. Santo excelled at 3B in a pitcher-dominated era in a hitter-friendly ballpark and there's no doubt he belongs in the HOF.

[Derwood]

anyone who argues that he shouldn't be in the HoF doesn't have a leg to stand on

 

he just needs to get his foot in the door

[twothousandfive]

I question the idea that it is a no-brainer that Santo belongs in the HoF for several reasons:

 

Someone has to be the best player not in the HoF.

Was he clearly better than, say, Torre? Hodges, Allen?

Brooks Robinson is such a clear aberration in talent, rep and HoF status, that he's a useless point of comparison.

3B is under-represented. If that is part of the argument in favor, it has to be applied to probably 5-10 other 3B. Who are they, and I suspect some of them would help explain why 3B is under-represented.

 

I do agree that writers can be needlessly fickle, thus hurting their credibility to make a decision. And Santo's stats are surprisingly comparable to some I thought he would no compare to (i.e., Clemente, Williams). But when it is necessary to pick out a handful of HoFers who aren't as good, highlight the lower offensive production of the 60s, point out the home field advantages of other HoFers, I think it indicates the argument isn't open and shut. And those in the best position to really know are Santo's contemporaries. They may not be much better than the writer's on holding grudges.

[OleMissCub]

And those in the best position to really know are Santo's contemporaries. They may not be much better than the writer's on holding grudges.

 

quotes from some of his contemporaries:

 

"Well, Ron was a player who could do everything, he drove in runs, he hit home runs...he dominated his position for a good decade and a half...and you can take Ron's statistics and put 'em up against any other third baseman in the Hall of Fame. He's the first guy I voted for....if anyone deserves the Hall of Fame it's Ron." - Brooks Robinson

"I always enjoyed playing against him, and he's still underrated in that he did things day in and day out, and year in and year out...and I will say this, he will get my vote!" - Joe Morgan

 

"Ron belongs in the Hall of Fame with all the rest of us. Ya know, I played against him all of his career and most of my career, and, Ron Santo was as good a third baseman as we've ever had in the National League." - Willie McCovey

 

"He was truly, truly, a fine competitor, he was the kind of player that any manager would have loved to have had playing for him...I'll tell you one thing..he belongs in the Hall of Fame...I voted for him!" - Tommy Lasorda.

 

"He was a true competitor, and you talk about Ronnie, and you are talking about a guy who plays everyday for you, and I think he should be in the Hall of Fame because I myself know what kind of player he was. I think he should be in." - Willie Mays

 

 

I also like this stat:

 

Top Win Shares of the 1960's:

 

Hank Aaron - 340

Willie Mays - 337

Frank Robinson - 307

Roberto Clemente - 260

Harmon Killebrew - 257

Ron Santo - 247

Mickey Mantle - 247

Willie McCovey - 237

Brooks Robinson - 233

Carl Yastrzemski - 230

[gflore34]

And those in the best position to really know are Santo's contemporaries. They may not be much better than the writer's on holding grudges.

 

quotes from some of his contemporaries:

 

"Well, Ron was a player who could do everything, he drove in runs, he hit home runs...he dominated his position for a good decade and a half...and you can take Ron's statistics and put 'em up against any other third baseman in the Hall of Fame. He's the first guy I voted for....if anyone deserves the Hall of Fame it's Ron." - Brooks Robinson

"I always enjoyed playing against him, and he's still underrated in that he did things day in and day out, and year in and year out...and I will say this, he will get my vote!" - Joe Morgan

 

"Ron belongs in the Hall of Fame with all the rest of us. Ya know, I played against him all of his career and most of my career, and, Ron Santo was as good a third baseman as we've ever had in the National League." - Willie McCovey

 

"He was truly, truly, a fine competitor, he was the kind of player that any manager would have loved to have had playing for him...I'll tell you one thing..he belongs in the Hall of Fame...I voted for him!" - Tommy Lasorda.

 

"He was a true competitor, and you talk about Ronnie, and you are talking about a guy who plays everyday for you, and I think he should be in the Hall of Fame because I myself know what kind of player he was. I think he should be in." - Willie Mays

 

 

I also like this stat:

 

Top Win Shares of the 1960's:

 

Hank Aaron - 340

Willie Mays - 337

Frank Robinson - 307

Roberto Clemente - 260

Harmon Killebrew - 257

Ron Santo - 247

Mickey Mantle - 247

Willie McCovey - 237

Brooks Robinson - 233

Carl Yastrzemski - 230

 

 

And what do all the above, beyond Ron Santo, have in common? I agree its not about the numbers, its some petty, childish, nonsense amongst the writers and HOF voters.

[Tracer Bullet]

And those in the best position to really know are Santo's contemporaries. They may not be much better than the writer's on holding grudges.

 

quotes from some of his contemporaries:

 

"Well, Ron was a player who could do everything, he drove in runs, he hit home runs...he dominated his position for a good decade and a half...and you can take Ron's statistics and put 'em up against any other third baseman in the Hall of Fame. He's the first guy I voted for....if anyone deserves the Hall of Fame it's Ron." - Brooks Robinson

"I always enjoyed playing against him, and he's still underrated in that he did things day in and day out, and year in and year out...and I will say this, he will get my vote!" - Joe Morgan

 

"Ron belongs in the Hall of Fame with all the rest of us. Ya know, I played against him all of his career and most of my career, and, Ron Santo was as good a third baseman as we've ever had in the National League." - Willie McCovey

 

"He was truly, truly, a fine competitor, he was the kind of player that any manager would have loved to have had playing for him...I'll tell you one thing..he belongs in the Hall of Fame...I voted for him!" - Tommy Lasorda.

 

"He was a true competitor, and you talk about Ronnie, and you are talking about a guy who plays everyday for you, and I think he should be in the Hall of Fame because I myself know what kind of player he was. I think he should be in." - Willie Mays

 

 

I also like this stat:

 

Top Win Shares of the 1960's:

 

Hank Aaron - 340

Willie Mays - 337

Frank Robinson - 307

Roberto Clemente - 260

Harmon Killebrew - 257

Ron Santo - 247

Mickey Mantle - 247

Willie McCovey - 237

Brooks Robinson - 233

Carl Yastrzemski - 230

 

Other than the fact that WS is a better evaluation tool than simply hits how is this different from the "Mark Grace had the most hits in the 90s" crap that suggested that Grace was a great player? There are a lot of great reasons why Santo should be in the Hall. I don't think we need to rely on total WS during random 10-year periods.

[twothousandfive]

I think those win shares also kind of show that Brooks Robinson was pretty good. So, that sort of diminishes the negative argument using Robinson.

 

If his contemporaries (HoF contemporaries) are so convinced he belongs in the HoF, one might think the Veterans Committee would put him in (or would have done so already).

 

Could it be the pitchers who don't think he belongs? Bunning, Carlton, Eckersley, Ford, Feller, Fingers, Gibson, Gossage, Jenkins, Koufax, Marachial, Niekro, Perry, Roberts, Ryan, Seaver, Sutter, Sutton?

 

If you include Fisk and Ryan and Gossage as contemporaries, I think 75% of the voters are contemporaries (or preceded Santo). Mike Schmidt only gets one vote. Why are another 20 or so not convinced?

 

Could these be the no votes:

Berra, Boggs, Brett, Carter, Doerr, Feller, Ford, Gwynn, Kell, Molitor, Murray, Ripken, Schmidt, Ozzie Smith, Sutter, Winfield, Yount? Maybe Sparky Anderson, Earl Weaver, Dick Williams, Red Schoendienst, Lee MacPhail, are keeping him out?

 

And, is it me, or are there a lot of 3B on the veterans committee?

[OleMissCub]

I believe Schmidt has said that he doesn't vote for anyone for the Vets Committee because and I'm paraphrasing "if the writers don't vote them in, why should we?".

[SouthSideRyan]

I believe Schmidt has said that he doesn't vote for anyone for the Vets Committee because and I'm paraphrasing "if the writers don't vote them in, why should we?".

 

He's softened on that, and I believe even championed Santo for the hall. It's amazing how nobody ever comes out in public saying how they voted against Santo.

[TruffleShuffle]

Rarely brought up (in fact I've never heard it mentioned), but I think one reason why his road splits weren't as good as they should have been might have to do with the fact that he was a diabetic. Traveling as a diabetic in modern times can be tricky, much less doing so in the 60's and trying to hide it from everyone. Just a thought.

 

except by Truffle 2 posts above yours...

 

:wink:

 

I think he was talking about his disease in general. I was referring specifically to being on the road with that illness. It's a real pain in the ass. I'm friends with a guy with juv diabetes and he always has to have a little cooler with him for his insulin if we go on trips or whatever.

 

i was more suggesting that being outside in the hot summer sunshine for all those day games would take more of a toll on a guy who has blood sugar issues than your average baseball player - hence the weaker september numbers over the course of his career.

[OleMissCub]

 

i was more suggesting that being outside in the hot summer sunshine for all those day games would take more of a toll on a guy who has blood sugar issues than your average baseball player - hence the weaker september numbers over the course of his career.

 

No doubt. Definitely wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

[bhogg]

I think those win shares also kind of show that Brooks Robinson was pretty good. So, that sort of diminishes the negative argument using Robinson.

 

If his contemporaries (HoF contemporaries) are so convinced he belongs in the HoF, one might think the Veterans Committee would put him in (or would have done so already).

 

Could it be the pitchers who don't think he belongs? Bunning, Carlton, Eckersley, Ford, Feller, Fingers, Gibson, Gossage, Jenkins, Koufax, Marachial, Niekro, Perry, Roberts, Ryan, Seaver, Sutter, Sutton?

 

If you include Fisk and Ryan and Gossage as contemporaries, I think 75% of the voters are contemporaries (or preceded Santo). Mike Schmidt only gets one vote. Why are another 20 or so not convinced?

 

Could these be the no votes:

Berra, Boggs, Brett, Carter, Doerr, Feller, Ford, Gwynn, Kell, Molitor, Murray, Ripken, Schmidt, Ozzie Smith, Sutter, Winfield, Yount? Maybe Sparky Anderson, Earl Weaver, Dick Williams, Red Schoendienst, Lee MacPhail, are keeping him out?

 

And, is it me, or are there a lot of 3B on the veterans committee?

 

 

There aren't that many 3B in the hall, much less on the vet committee.

 

Seems to me that 3B is that position that everyone assumes is a big time player / big time power spot and it just isn't the case.

[OleMissCub]

Seems to me that 3B is that position that everyone assumes is a big time player / big time power spot and it just isn't the case.

 

Bill James' take is in order:

 

If I were in control of the Hall of Fame's selections, the first player I would choose would be Ron Santo. Santo retired in 1974, and became eligible for the BBWAA vote in 1980. He drew only fifteen votes in his first year of eligibility, and was dropped from the ballot until 1985, when he and several others players were restored by a review committee.

 

The Hall of Fame, in a sense, has been caught between hops at third base. Third base is a half-and-half position, half of a "slugger's position", like first base or left field, but half of a "glove man's position" like second or short. A good third basemen is expected to contribute both ways, more so than a player at any other position.

 

This in effect, creates a third set of standards, unique to the position. The Hall of Fame selection system uses two distinct sets of de facto standards. Bobby Doerr doesn't have numbers that would put him in the Hall of Fame if he was an outfielder, but he was a second baseman, so he's in. The same with Arky Vaughn, Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey, Johnny Bench, Pee Wee Reese and many others.

 

Third basemen are neither fish nor fowl; they need a third standard. The system just isn't quite subtle enough to form an intermediate standard, and honor the guys like Santo and Ken Boyer who played a good third base (Santo won five Gold Gloves) and also could hit.

 

This incorporates a general principle of overrated and underrated players - in fact, the most important principle in understanding why some players are underrated. The principle is that specialists are always overrated, while players who do many things well are always underrated. If the public understands that a player does one thing expceptionally well - Tony Gwynn hits lots of singles - they can build on that, and then he'll get credit for everything else he does well, even if there isn't a tremendous lot of it. The public can understand Cecil Fielder because they can immediately identify what he does well, even though, in his case, this is nearly the only thing he does well. It is difficult to get the public to understand that Jay Bell is just as good a player because he does lots of things well.

 

Anyway, only seven third basemen are in the Hall of Fame, not counting the guys from the Negro Leagues. Santo was a much, much better player than Fred Lindstrom or George Kell. He was probably a better player than Home Run Baker, although Baker was very good, and in my opinion he was probably better than Pie Traynor, although the old-timers will think that is crazy. So even though third base is dramatically underrepresented in the Hall of Fame, Santo would rank in the middle of top hall of that group, if he were selected. That's unusual for a player who is still on the outside.

[twothousandfive]

There aren't that many 3B in the hall, much less on the vet committee.

 

Boggs, Brett, Robinson, Schmidt, Kell are on the Veteran's Committee.

 

I always think of Molitor at 3B, I can't imagine anyone considers Ripken a 3B. Johnny Bench never played B (It never happened! Is that clear??!!) Out of 63 guys on the Vets committee, 10% are 3B.

 

I think there are as many or more 3B than shortstops or catchers.

[OleMissCub]

I think there are as many or more 3B than shortstops or catchers.

 

Speaking of the lack of catchers, I think Joe Torre should be in the HOF. I suppose what hurts him is that he didn't play catcher his whole career. Torre had a pretty badass career though: .297/.365/.452, 128 OPS+, 2300+ hits, 252 HR, 1185 RBI, 1 MVP, 9 time All-Star

 

Torre's offensive numbers are pretty impressive considering the era he played in.

[Backtobanks]

I question the idea that it is a no-brainer that Santo belongs in the HoF for several reasons:

 

Someone has to be the best player not in the HoF.

Was he clearly better than, say, Torre? Hodges, Allen?

Brooks Robinson is such a clear aberration in talent, rep and HoF status, that he's a useless point of comparison.

3B is under-represented. If that is part of the argument in favor, it has to be applied to probably 5-10 other 3B. Who are they, and I suspect some of them would help explain why 3B is under-represented.

 

I do agree that writers can be needlessly fickle, thus hurting their credibility to make a decision. And Santo's stats are surprisingly comparable to some I thought he would no compare to (i.e., Clemente, Williams). But when it is necessary to pick out a handful of HoFers who aren't as good, highlight the lower offensive production of the 60s, point out the home field advantages of other HoFers, I think it indicates the argument isn't open and shut. And those in the best position to really know are Santo's contemporaries. They may not be much better than the writer's on holding grudges.

 

Yea, we shouldn't bring up the fact that pitchers like Gibson (on an elevated mound) had an ERA of 1.12 for the whole year while great power hitters had 30 HRs as opposed to now when some mediocre hitters hit 35-40 HRs and good pitchers have an ERA of 4.20. :-k

[bhogg]

I taught Bill James everything he knows.

 

 

 

I'm all up in the Santo and Bert for HoF train.

[TruffleShuffle]

I taught Bill James everything he knows.

 

 

 

I'm all up in the Santo and Bert for HoF train.

 

please let alan trammell on that train. maybe tim raines too.

[OleMissCub]

I taught Bill James everything he knows.

 

 

 

I'm all up in the Santo and Bert for HoF train.

 

please let alan trammell on that train. maybe tim raines too.

 

I think Hawk should be on there as well.

 

The guys I'd let in immediately right now are Santo, Blyleven, Dick Allen, Raines, Trammell, Dawson, and Torre

[bhogg]

Raines and Trammell --- YES! I'm in the Hawk's corner, too.

 

Typically (not necessarily on NSBB) when I mention those guys as hall of famers, I'm blasted (especially on Dawson).